Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16

[Krunchii]

@Krunchii Brians strenght is indeed the polishing but also preparing his skaters for the mental game and politic for them. In addition if Patricks jumps get as consistent as Nams or Javis ( who was terribly inconsistent before he got to brian) it would be a real improvement for patrick.

As for the time issue - 15 min. A day with Brian and training with Hanyu and Javi all day is way better than zero time with them and training all day with his current dance coach, don't you think?

But Patrick doesn't need to politick for himself anymore, he's one of the biggest names in the game and his SS are second to none, he just needs to deliver to get high scores.

Brian Orser is not some end all magical coach who can work with anyone, what about Adam Rippon? Christina Gao? Honestly even Patrick getting Lee Barkell as a coach would be very far fetched, the TCC is one of the most popular clubs here in Toronto and ice time is hard to get, to add more and more skaters there is unrealistic. 15 mins a day is not 15 mins a day, coaches and skaters have to discuss and plan out training regimes, schedule, update on conditions, the coach has to observe the skater to know where to improve. A coach student relationship is not as simple as 15 mins a day, 15 mins is extremely short for a high level skater to see their coach and get any actual constructive feedback. You're being very idealistic and unrealistic here.

Honestly most people in Canada were quite disappointed when he left Christy Krall, he should have stayed with her. Most people here in the figure skating community blamed his lack of gold last year on him leaving Christy Krall. She probably wouldn't take him back after what happened.

 

[Eclair]

But Patrick doesn't need to politick for himself anymore, he's one of the biggest names in the game and his SS are second to none, he just needs to deliver to get high scores.

Brian Orser is not some end all magical coach who can work with anyone, what about Adam Rippon? Christina Gao? Honestly even Patrick getting Lee Barkell as a coach would be very far fetched, the TCC is one of the most popular clubs here in Toronto and ice time is hard to get, to add more and more skaters there is unrealistic. 15 mins a day is not 15 mins a day, coaches and skaters have to discuss and plan out training regimes, schedule, update on conditions, the coach has to observe the skater to know where to improve. A coach student relationship is not as simple as 15 mins a day, 15 mins is extremely short for a high level skater to see their coach and get any actual constructive feedback. You're being very idealistic and unrealistic here.

Honestly most people in Canada were quite disappointed when he left Christy Krall, he should have stayed with her. Most people here in the figure skating community blamed his lack of gold last year on him leaving Christy Krall. She probably wouldn't take him back after what happened.

Actually I think having a coach to politic for him could get Patrick a few additional points - not only in PCS, but in GOE also.
I was disappointed when he left Krall, too, but my understanding is that they didn't part on good terms, therefore I didn't suggest him to return to her since this seemed unrealistic to me.

Agreed that Brian is no magican, but he does a lot of good work for a bunch of talented skaters, bringing out what the skater is capable of in competitons. Adam Rippon and Christina Gao are inconsistent skaters themselves - but under Orser they were more consistent or at least not less consistent than they are without him. Even if Patrick doesn't improve his consistency under Orser, he at least could learn a better 3axel technique. And it's not only the politicking and polishing that team Orser has to offer - Hanyu, Javi and Nam push, motivate and inspire each other each day - Who does Patrick has to push him?

Yes, TCC is crowded but somehow they'll manage to find time for Patrick if both sides wanted to. And of course I didn't mean 15min. in total, but I truly believe that a whole team as in TCC is a lot better than the one dance coach, even if the team don't invest as much time in Patrick as his dance coach might.

Also, I don't limit Patricks possible coaches to Team Brian - I mentioned him because he's in Canada and apparently does good work. But I would appreciate every coaching change to e.g. a technical coach like Arthurian or Kori Ade ( who at least knows how to teach the 3axel, let her skaters peak at the right times with good stamina and sufficiently trained and polished programs).

My main point was: If Patrick want to change the outcome of his competitions (aka beating Hanyu), he has to make a coaching change. As of today he neither upped his technical, artistic or any content, but expects to somehow compete with Hanyu, which is just unrealistic.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Yuzu and Javi are very polite and respectful...but would they really be happy with Patrick taking from TCC?

 

[Weathergal]

Yuzu and Javi are very polite and respectful...but would they really be happy with Patrick taking from TCC?

^^^ Yes, this is something I'm thinking of, too. I've heard skaters and coaches speak of coaches and skaters respecting the skaters who are already with a coach, and coaches being sensitive to how their current students feel and not having their attention too divided.

 

[4everchan]

i think that if Patrick had wanted to get Brian as a coach he would have done it a long time ago... when he was a teenager.. so I don't think he is even considering this as an option... i wouldn't be worried about what yuzu javi or nam care about... if ever it were to happen, the deal would be between Brian and Patrick... and that remains Brian's responsibility to see what he can do or not, what he can offer or not... students come and go... a coach usually has a longer career...

^^^ Yes, this is something I'm thinking of, too. I've heard skaters and coaches speak of coaches and skaters respecting the skaters who are already with a coach, and coaches being sensitive to how their current students feel and not having their attention too divided.

 

[Lys]

the deal would be between Brian and Patrick...

I don't know... If I remember right, Brian himself told that before accepting Yuzuru/Jsf proposal he asked Javi if he was fine with it... Can't see him accepting a direct competitor of his three top male skaters without consulting with them first, tbh.

 

[HanDomi]

i think that if Patrick had wanted to get Brian as a coach he would have done it a long time ago... when he was a teenager.. so I don't think he is even considering this as an option... i wouldn't be worried about what yuzu javi or nam care about... if ever it were to happen, the deal would be between Brian and Patrick... and that remains Brian's responsibility to see what he can do or not, what he can offer or not... students come and go... a coach usually has a longer career...

No, it's not only between Brian and Patrick, because Orser talked that before Hanyu moved to him, he first asked Javier if he can agree to train with him

 

[4everchan]

that doesn't mean much to me... that's what we are told... so what about when Nam moved over? seriously, the only thing that can be in there is if one of his current skater (and maybe Javi had that with Brian back then) has an exclusivity contract with Brian...there's a difference between being courteous and "having to consult"

No, it's not only between Brian and Patrick, because Orser talked that before Hanyu moved to him, he first asked Javier if he can agree to train with him

 

[Violet Bliss]

i think that if Patrick had wanted to get Brian as a coach he would have done it a long time ago... when he was a teenager.. so I don't think he is even considering this as an option... i wouldn't be worried about what yuzu javi or nam care about... if ever it were to happen, the deal would be between Brian and Patrick... and that remains Brian's responsibility to see what he can do or not, what he can offer or not... students come and go... a coach usually has a longer career...

Yes, Patrick and Brian went way back. I can't find the picture of Little Patrick with a svelte Orser but here is a video of three former and a future Canadian Champs.

Orser is an excellent coach with a great team to attract and train some of the best skating talents in the world. But that doesn't mean he's best for everybody or he can make miracles with every student and make them world champion.

Krall was a Dartfish specialist but she has had no star students before and after Patrick. She decided to leave the Chan team because she didn't like her role and importance as the main coach lessened. Patrick was very distracted and depressed going into Worlds 2012 and contemplated quitting the sport. Krall's resignation was revealed right after the event. It was not his decision and it was painful for him.

In reality, Johnson had a major role in Patrick's acquiring his quad: She gave him a Rudolf Nureyev's tape to study and he had an epiphany. The next day he started landing quads easily and consistently. Johnson was brought into Chan team because she had assisted many skaters with understanding their bodies and movements. She fit his needs at the time his objective was to improve his performance and artistry and they have great success in achieving this goal.

Patrick has retained all his jump techniques. Any jump error has been mental, due to pressure or lapse of focus. The more it is pounded into him that his 3A is inconsistent, the more likely it fells his attempts. He actually calls the 3A his favorite jump. But instead of calling it "a bad girlfriend" he should regard it as his best buddy, a faithful friend. Some mental adjustment may be critical.

One way I find Krall very good for Patrick was how she seemed to be able to keep him calm at a competition, usually simply by them playing a game of Old Maid.

 

[4everchan]

thank you for the video... and the insight... this all makes perfect sense and i totally agree with choosing the right coach for us...

i am a musician, so it's the same for us... we go for a studio... sometimes because it does produce a lot of talented people who will emerge on the scene or sometimes we choose someone who fits our needs best... for instance, my last mentor is not known at all but she has given me more than anyone ever and that's how i acquired wicked technique... by understanding how my body works.. it's indeed very similar to figure skating... and now, well i don't need a mentor anymore... i know what to do... so it's sort of sounds like "owning your jumps" .. and the rest is mental same deal... thank you for taking the time to write all of this... it's so refreshing to read sensible comments

Yes, Patrick and Brian went way back. I can't find the picture of Little Patrick with a svelte Orser but here is a video of three former and a future Canadian Champs.

Orser is an excellent coach with a great team to attract and train some of the best skating talents in the world. But that doesn't mean he's best for everybody or he can make miracles with every student and make them world champion.

Krall was a Dartfish specialist but she has had no star students before and after Patrick. She decided to leave the Chan team because she didn't like her role and importance as the main coach lessened. Patrick was very distracted and depressed going into Worlds 2012 and contemplated quitting the sport. Krall's resignation was revealed right after the event. It was not his decision and it was painful for him.

In reality, Johnson had a major role in Patrick's acquiring his quad: She gave him a Rudolf Nureyev's tape to study and he had an epiphany. The next day he started landing quads easily and consistently. Johnson was brought into Chan team because she had assisted many skaters with understanding their bodies and movements. She fit his needs at the time his objective was to improve his performance and artistry and they have great success in achieving this goal.

Patrick has retained all his jump techniques. Any jump error has been mental, due to pressure or lapse of focus. The more it is pounded into him that his 3A is inconsistent, the more likely it fells his attempts. He actually calls the 3A his favorite jump. But instead of calling it "a bad girlfriend" he should regard it as his best buddy, a faithful friend. Some mental adjustment may be critical.

One way I find Krall very good for Patrick was how she seemed to be able to keep him calm at a competition, usually simply by them playing a game of Old Maid.

 

[Krunchii]

Actually I think having a coach to politic for him could get Patrick a few additional points - not only in PCS, but in GOE also.
I was disappointed when he left Krall, too, but my understanding is that they didn't part on good terms, therefore I didn't suggest him to return to her since this seemed unrealistic to me.

Agreed that Brian is no magican, but he does a lot of good work for a bunch of talented skaters, bringing out what the skater is capable of in competitons. Adam Rippon and Christina Gao are inconsistent skaters themselves - but under Orser they were more consistent or at least not less consistent than they are without him. Even if Patrick doesn't improve his consistency under Orser, he at least could learn a better 3axel technique. And it's not only the politicking and polishing that team Orser has to offer - Hanyu, Javi and Nam push, motivate and inspire each other each day - Who does Patrick has to push him?

Yes, TCC is crowded but somehow they'll manage to find time for Patrick if both sides wanted to. And of course I didn't mean 15min. in total, but I truly believe that a whole team as in TCC is a lot better than the one dance coach, even if the team don't invest as much time in Patrick as his dance coach might.

Also, I don't limit Patricks possible coaches to Team Brian - I mentioned him because he's in Canada and apparently does good work. But I would appreciate every coaching change to e.g. a technical coach like Arthurian or Kori Ade ( who at least knows how to teach the 3axel, let her skaters peak at the right times with good stamina and sufficiently trained and polished programs).

My main point was: If Patrick want to change the outcome of his competitions (aka beating Hanyu), he has to make a coaching change. As of today he neither upped his technical, artistic or any content, but expects to somehow compete with Hanyu, which is just unrealistic.

Patrick has says he's improved artistically while performing all year, many people on this forum raved about him at JO last year with his Chopin program, he hasn't been back in any major competitions yet so you can't exactly said he hasn't upped anything. He took tap dancing lessons to prepare for his new SP and he could move jumping passes around to increase base value as the season goes on. Him competing with Yuzuru is not unrealistic at all, if Patrick is back to form he is one of the best in the world, so is Yuzuru and Javi and Denis, there is no somehow. It'll be fun and they'll be good for pushing each other further.

Like I said before, Brian Orser is not some end all magical coach, maybe he won't gel with Patrick. It probably would never happen, Brian would have to attend more competitions, he's pretty much on the road every week for the GPs to go with his students and then he has to go back to Toronto in between to coach them. It's unrealistic and I highly doubt he would have the time to do any real, constructive work with Patrick.

Like Patrick really does need a coaching change but at this point it could be anyone since his current coach is a dance coach. He really needs an actual figure skating coach. Since he trains in Detroit there also some coaches there I'm sure, I believe Yuka Sato still trains around there, really love her but I don't know if she could take on Patrick. She had Jeremy who just had the worst nerves I swear, lovely skater and lovely person but the worst nerves

 

[Violet Bliss]

The fact is Patrick won two Worlds, two OSMs and achieved Guinness world records under Johnson who also had a hand in his first Worlds title. And his presence and artistry on ice is now one of the best ever. How many current coaches can boast such results, whatever their title and credentials?

He has his family and various experts around him so I trust he is well advised. If he needs a new or an additional coach, he will get one.

 

[xibsuarz]

Patrick seems to be very fond of Kathy Johnson, and SkateFiguring is right, he got that WR score with her. I think that, instead of radically changing coaches, he could go to someone specialized in jumps for a couple of months since his only mayor problem is the 3A. He could train that jump with said person and then go back to Kathy.
But really, I can't see him training at TCC, I think I read somewhere that Brian wouldn't take any other top-level male skaters because he has to give priority to Javier, Yuzuru and Nam. Add Elisabet Tursynbaeva to the mix who is making her senior debut and Javier Raya who has started to train there full time, I don't think there's simply enough Brian to cover so many students, even with the help of his team. He'll already go to almost all the GP events (save for TEB). Besides, some skaters would rather keep their weaknesses to themselves instead of having their greatest rivals looking at them every day. Maybe Patrick is one of those skaters.

 

[4everchan]

by weakness you mean 3A? i think that patrick's unsteadiness is common knowledge...no hiding required....

i am sure that he does have help where needed... i think people just make assumptions about skaters needs and coaches etc... patrick knows what he needs and is getting it... he's a grown up

Patrick seems to be very fond of Kathy Johnson, and SkateFiguring is right, he got that WR score with her. I think that, instead of radically changing coaches, he could go to someone specialized in jumps for a couple of months since his only mayor problem is the 3A. He could train that jump with said person and then go back to Kathy.
But really, I can't see him training at TCC, I think I read somewhere that Brian wouldn't take any other top-level male skaters because he has to give priority to Javier, Yuzuru and Nam. Add Elisabet Tursynbaeva to the mix who is making her senior debut and Javier Raya who has started to train there full time, I don't think there's simply enough Brian to cover so many students, even with the help of his team. He'll already go to almost all the GP events (save for TEB). Besides, some skaters would rather keep their weaknesses to themselves instead of having their greatest rivals looking at them every day. Maybe Patrick is one of those skaters.

 

[4everchan]

The fact is Patrick won two Worlds, two OSMs and achieved Guinness world records under Johnson who also had a hand in his first Worlds title. And his presence and artistry on ice is now one of the best ever. How many current coaches can boast such results, whatever their title and credentials?

He has his family and various experts around him so I trust he is well advised. If he needs a new or an additional coach, he will get one.

yup!!! i agree with that fully...

 

[xibsuarz]

by weakness you mean 3A? i think that patrick's unsteadiness is common knowledge...no hiding required....

i am sure that he does have help where needed... i think people just make assumptions about skaters needs and coaches etc... patrick knows what he needs and is getting it... he's a grown up

I meant that not a single skater can a have a great training session every time (maybe Plushy did but idk). There are days in which something is just off and they fall on their quads or pop their jumps or whatever. Tough days. Some people don't like being watched by so many under these circumstances, let alone by their direct competitors. I don't know if Patrick is that way or not, I'm just saying it could be a possibility. If not, great for him, that shows mental toughness.
If he is getting help in his 3A, I really wish it shows the results soon, it would make us all quiet. Posters here (myself included) would mention his improvement on it.

 

[Eclair]

Patrick has says he's improved artistically while performing all year, many people on this forum raved about him at JO last year with his Chopin program, he hasn't been back in any major competitions yet so you can't exactly said he hasn't upped anything. He took tap dancing lessons to prepare for his new SP and he could move jumping passes around to increase base value as the season goes on. Him competing with Yuzuru is not unrealistic at all, if Patrick is back to form he is one of the best in the world, so is Yuzuru and Javi and Denis, there is no somehow. It'll be fun and they'll be good for pushing each other further.

Like Patrick really does need a coaching change but at this point it could be anyone since his current coach is a dance coach. He really needs an actual figure skating coach. Since he trains in Detroit there also some coaches there I'm sure, I believe Yuka Sato still trains around there, really love her but I don't know if she could take on Patrick. She had Jeremy who just had the worst nerves I swear, lovely skater and lovely person but the worst nerves

Patrick is indeed one of the best men in the world, but to win gold (which is obviously his goal) he has to get that 3axel consistent. No buts, no matter how much his artistry has improved. That 3axel is essential for him to win anything. Without a more consisten 3axel (it doesn't even have to be consistent 100% of time) he still can podium but not win consistently. And he's not going to get that 3axel consistent under Johnson. He needs another coach for that.

I agree with your point on Yuka Sato - love her and she's such a good personality but all her student are headcases.

The fact is Patrick won two Worlds, two OSMs and achieved Guinness world records under Johnson who also had a hand in his first Worlds title. And his presence and artistry on ice is now one of the best ever. How many current coaches can boast such results, whatever their title and credentials?

He has his family and various experts around him so I trust he is well advised. If he needs a new or an additional coach, he will get one.

Sometimes one needs a fresh air of breath and some objective perspective from an outstander instead of always relying on family and people who're close to us. And sometimes one doesn't notice they need help from someone else until it's too late.
I didn't say Johnson wasn't competent at her field, but she still is no figure skating coach. Showing videos is not the same as giving individual advice of what went wrong with the take-off/ edge/ air position/ landing.

And yes, Patrick won all those titles under her but he didn't win the Olympics nor the Worlds nor the GPF in 2015. His TEB skate was awesome and clean, but it also showed that he had the ability to skate that programm clean, but wasn't trained to peak at the right time.

 

[4everchan]

thanks for explaining what you meant here... it is not something I experienced personally as I am not a skater... as a swimmer we would have good and off days in the pool but there was no mental game there... just a "tomorrow is another day now move your butt to a slower lane"

i could see that patrick may prefer a calmer environment ... and as far as the 3A goes...life will tell.. i am a believer that he can achieve anything...

I meant that not a single skater can a have a great training session every time (maybe Plushy did but idk). There are days in which something is just off and they fall on their quads or pop their jumps or whatever. Tough days. Some people don't like being watched by so many under these circumstances, let alone by their direct competitors. I don't know if Patrick is that way or not, I'm just saying it could be a possibility. If not, great for him, that shows mental toughness.
If he is getting help in his 3A, I really wish it shows the results soon, it would make us all quiet. Posters here (myself included) would mention his improvement on it.

 

[4everchan]

Patrick is indeed one of the best men in the world, but to win gold (which is obviously his goal) he has to get that 3axel consistent. No buts, no matter how much his artistry has improved. That 3axel is essential for him to win anything. Without a more consisten 3axel (it doesn't even have to be consistent 100% of time) he still can podium but not win consistently. And he's not going to get that 3axel consistent under Johnson. He needs another coach for that.

I agree with your point on Yuka Sato - love her and she's such a good personality but all her student are headcases.


Sometimes one needs a fresh air of breath and some objective perspective from an outstander instead of always relying on family and people who're close to us. And sometimes one doesn't notice they need help from someone else until it's too late.
I didn't say Johnson wasn't competent at her field, but she still is no figure skating coach. Showing videos is not the same as giving individual advice of what went wrong with the take-off/ edge/ air position/ landing.

And yes, Patrick won all those titles under her but he didn't win the Olympics nor the Worlds nor the GPF in 2015. His TEB skate was awesome and clean, but it also showed that he had the ability to skate that programm clean, but wasn't trained to peak at the right time.

Patrick says in an interview that he is back not to win.. but for the love of skating... he sounds really sincere so i don't think a medal or winning is the main goal here... he added that he is proud of what he has achieved in his career already and could retire satisfied without any regrets.

regarding TEB... there are more than one factors here... yes... perhaps you are right and his peaking was too early in the season.... but i don't think it's quite like that... i think that the mishap at the OG was more mental than physical preparation... he was fit... but he lost focus in the FS.... he lost precious points near the end of the program that would have made a difference and they looked like mental mistakes to me... that's just my opinion but it's how it felt... he was phased out... a bit like when you are performing something and you tune out... and realised it's done... (happens to us musicians all the time... we play a piece... and tune out, muscle memory does the job... and we realise it's over... that leads to small mistakes and sometimes much bigger ones)

 

[Icey]

Brecht sings Mack

http://www.openculture.com/2013/02/...e_knife_from_ithe_threepenny_operai_1929.html