Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16

[TheGrandSophy]

i totally agree with your post... hence my user name.... 4everchan... no matter how he does, I will always appreciate his skating. I was shocked when i first join the forum to read so much negativity.... and of course, whenever someone who has a username associated to him posts anything, it is automatically believed that we are diminishing others.... i love chan, i love hanyu, i love daisuke ... i love buttle and kurt.. so many skaters.... being a figure skating fan is not a MARRIAGE!!!!! we can polygamously love many skaters why so much banter? oh well.. thanks for your comment! it's refreshing!

I try not assume anything actually. But you yourself certainly seemed to diminish others by using phrases that have negative associations. The term 'masses' was used in direct opposition to the idea of a select few having a seemingly more refined taste. It is also a word that has the connotation of an easily swayed, rather unintelligent public. The word 'mimickings' is used for things like parrots, not people who are the best in their field. The word 'shallow' is not usually thought a good thing when discussing ideas, creativity or personality. I didn't automatically believe anything; it seemed to be the case from what you yourself wrote.

ETA: I don't want to this thread, but I dislike being portrayed as if I and others are deliberately jumping to conclusions.

 

[OS]

I disagree agree. Parisienne walkways was perfect for Hanyu! It wasn't too trying or objectifying at all it was the exact opposite it was perfect! It brought out the wild side of his personality and he owned it. He earned that world record at the Olympics! Also Daisuke was not at his best at 2013 japanese nationals were he finished off the podium or at the Olympics due to his knee injury. Are you trying to suggest that Hanyu stole Daisuke's Thunder? That the Japanese Fed threw Daisuke under the bus in favor of Hanyu? I see nothing wrong with repeat programs as long as you perform a new layout. I think Hanyu is keeping Chopin because last season was a nightmare and because of that he was never able to perform Chopin the way in was intended. Hanyu is NOT a man child! I think you misunderstand what a man child is a manchild by definition is an immature man or adult child which hardly applies to Hanyu as he is emotional strong and very mature for his age. So I'd say that skating to Pariseinne Walkways was perfect for the Olympics and was right in time with his growth as a skater. How is skating to Chopin a PChan piece all of a sudden? Is Hanyu not allowed to skater to slow classical pieces? He's skated to slow classical pieces before Étude in D minor, R&J 1 and 2, Notre Dame de Paris ect. About the score inflation before the Olympic season. Everyone's scores were a little inflationed. Not that that would have changed anything as he still deserved to win

Calm down ... I am talking about initial impressions. I like to see things from fresh perspectives that is why I like goto gallery openings and premiers. It hardly means they are not successful programs. The critics slated Les Mis on its debut, and it ends up one of the great westend musicals of all time. IMO Hanyu Parisienne walkways eventually settles as his presentation matured (less boyish and sloppy) and movement became more effortless with greater clarity, but it didn't gel right at the start for me at least, especially with his stamina issues. It is fine to admit programs goes through evolution phases and get better over time. The more familiar the skater is with it, the better they can deliver, much like his Seimei I suspect, and likely Jason's FS this year. As for how Dai is treated.. I suggest you revisit the Japan National thread that year, i'd rather not rehash the same old thing. Water under the bridge and all that. Heck... even Hanyu being a modest honesty guy admit he was kind of lucky with that one in his later interviews I believe.

Ideally skaters should do the right program at the right time of their career. If Hanyu had swapped Chopin for Olympic season, and PW this year... i think the artistic impact may be greater. But then again, Chopin vs Elegy... oh boy!! How does one choose!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

i should have specified in big competitions like WC or OG ... i don't really care about GP nor WTT

Okay, but he didn't compete in 2014 or 2015 Worlds, and everyone skated poorly at the OG. Chan's best FS at Worlds was 2011 You can't really say somebody hasn't produced in a long time when the sample size is 3 or 4 freeskates (if you're only counting WC or OG). Also, a GP - while not Worlds/OG - is still a significant competition... WTT not as much because it's essentially a fun fest (even though it counts for PBs and such). And as mentioned, he had a great FS at the GPF 2014, which is very recent.

 

[4everchan]

i think the nature of these threads X vs Y is prone to such discussions... same thing to a lesser extent happened with the D/R vs V/T...

on the other hand, it shows excitement and enthusiasm for the upcoming season.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Quality, refinement, and maturity aside, three words for Patrick: dead fish eyes. That's what I get.

With "dead fish eyes" he gets the highest PCS ever achieved... seems like you might be the one with the wonky eyes.

 

[4everchan]

exactly... so the sample of great freeskates for either is very small... even when including GP . Chan's TEB, Hanyu GPF 2014 (if I recall)... so my point was that NOBODY is extremely consistent within the top skaters.

Okay, but he didn't compete in 2014 or 2015 Worlds, and everyone skated poorly at the OG. Chan's best FS at Worlds was 2011 You can't really say somebody hasn't produced in a long time when the sample size is 3 freeskates (if you're only counting WC or OG). Also, a GP - while not Worlds/OG - is still a significant competition... WTT not as much because it's essentially a fun fest (even though it counts for PBs and such).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

exactly... so the sample of great freeskates for either is very small... even when including GP . Chan's TEB, Hanyu GPF 2014 (if I recall)... so my point was that NOBODY is extremely consistent within the top skaters.

While it's true that nobody is extremely consistent (particularly because the guys are now trying way harder difficulty and programs), you can't just look at the biggest competitions. Not every skater brings their best to Worlds, and every World medallist, save for Machida in 2014, and Chan in 2011, had at least one major error but still won/medalled.

 

[4everchan]

While it's true that nobody is extremely consistent (particularly because the guys are now trying way harder difficulty and programs), you can't just look at the biggest competitions. Not every skater brings their best to Worlds, and every World medallist, save for Machida in 2014, and Chan in 2011, had at least one major error but still won/medalled.

yes... i don't disagree with that. my point was exactly that... because someone was saying "when so and so skates clean, they will pretty much destroy the competition" and I simply said, well wait, when was the last time they did skate clean? just to show that MOST people haven't in a long time as I agree with you, they are all pushing themselves to harder and harder things... for me, that's great... and I simply look forward to the next competitions, rather than speculating about who is going to be clean this year or not because, maybe nobody will be

 

[mrrice]

While it's true that nobody is extremely consistent (particularly because the guys are now trying way harder difficulty and programs), you can't just look at the biggest competitions. Not every skater brings their best to Worlds, and every World medallist, save for Machida in 2014, and Chan in 2011, had at least one major error but still won/medalled.

This statement is very accurate. Especially the last sentence. Gone are the days of Orser vs Boitano when a small mistake would cost you the gold medal. The Olympics with Michelle and Tara were the same way. Times have definitely changed and I think the technical demand has to be the reason.

 

[Mathman]

And from archival therads, my understading is that a few of Patrick's wins which were widely perceived as undeserved, soured the appreciacion quite a bit.

Yes, I think originally it was criticism of a judging system that did not punish falls as heavily as the 6.0 system had, thus allowing skaters to win with a fall or even two over a clean skate by another competitor. Then gradually the hostility shifted from the scoring system and the judges to the skater.

Patrick did not help matters, though. He always felt that he deserved to win regardless, and his remarks sometimes came off as arrogance rather than confidence.

 

[4everchan]

Yes, I think originally it was criticism of a judging system that did not punish falls as heavily as the 6.0 system had, thus allowing skaters to win with a fall or even two over a clean skate by another competitor. Then gradually the hostility shifted from the scoring system and the judges to the skater.

Patrick did not help matters, though. He always felt that he deserved to win regardless, and his remarks sometimes came off as arrogance rather than confidence.

just thought of something... in tennis for instance... or hockey... etc... we will often hear a player saying, well my opponent was great today and I am so happy to have won, got lucky a few times, (ball went over the net or in the net depending on the sport)...

but in figure skating, saying something else than I deserved the win would imply that the judges didn't do their job properly... no matter how clean a skater skates at a competition, if they end up on top of the podium, they cannot start saying things like "i was lucky, or i shouldn't have won"... it would open a huge can of worms... so i think the actual best comment is to say I am so happy I won, i worked hard, I deserved it

no? just a thought.

 

[mrrice]

Mathman Look, I understand where you're coming from but I can tell you from experience that there's a very fine line between confidence and arrogance. My poor dance team girl's were called "Stuck Up Snobs" at least once a day when I taught High School in the 90's. It used to really upset them. My response to them was always "Shake It Off" Thank you Taylor. Some people don't appreciate the hours of sweat, or the gross wet football field you have to do jump splits on.

I say, you deserve to pat yourself on the back because as you can see by the way Patrick gets treated. That may be all the praise you get.

 

[Mathman]

IMHO, just stick with the "my opponent was great today and I am so happy to have won" part.

Maybe throw in the "I worked hard" part, adding something about being pleased that all the hard work paid off.

And it never hurts to thank your coach, your choreographer, your parents, the fans, the Zamboni driver, the academy…

I remember Michelle Kwan's answer when asked if she deserves to win the championship because she has worked so hard to put herself in a position to compete for it. "Everyone works hard."

 

[4everchan]

Mathman Look, I understand where you're coming from but I can tell you from experience that there's a very fine line between confidence and arrogance. My poor dance team girl's were called "Stuck Up Snobs" at least once a day when I taught High School in the 90's. It used to really upset them. My response to them was always "Shake It Off" Thank you Taylor. Some people don't appreciate the hours of sweat, or the gross wet football field you have to do jump splits on.

I say, you deserve to pat yourself on the back because as you can see by the way Patrick gets treated. That may be all the praise you get.

+ mine but i don't count for much

i think that it is important to pat yourself on the back also as one doesn't get to the top, even the top 100 in the world without extreme training, insane schedules, personal and financial investment etc.... we expect a lot of our athletes, they expect even more from themselves... i think we should praise all of them for giving us so much through sport.

 

[mrrice]

^ Just stick with the "my opponent was great today and I am so happy to have won" part.

Maybe throw in the "I worked hard" part, adding something about being pleased that all the hard work paid off.

And it never hurts to thank your coach, your choreographer, your parents, the fans, the Zamboni driver, the academy…

I remember Michelle Kwan's answer when asked if she deserves to win the championship because she has worked so hard to put herself in a position to compete for it. "Everyone works hard."

You know what......Those are all good!!

 

[4everchan]

i think the issue though is that media is often trying to make a story out of nothing.... if you watch long interviews with Patrick, he is very kind to his competitors. but then, in one sentence, there may be something "meaty" enough for journalist to start a huge deal out of nothing... in his most recent interview, Patrick says he is an underdog and it will be good to be chasing rather than being chased. I think it shows a great deal of humility. but anyone could extract something out of there and turn it around... like when he said that he didn't pay too much attention about what other skaters did at WC... everyone jumped on him... and yet you have Mao saying the same, but then the journalists put it into another perspective as she was taking time off from the circuit and focusing on other things in her life... well isn't it what patrick was doing too?

^ Just stick with the "my opponent was great today and I am so happy to have won" part.

Maybe throw in the "I worked hard" part, adding something about being pleased that all the hard work paid off.

And it never hurts to thank your coach, your choreographer, your parents, the fans, the Zamboni driver, the academy…

I remember Michelle Kwan's answer when asked if she deserves to win the championship because she has worked so hard to put herself in a position to compete for it. "Everyone works hard."

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes, I think originally it was criticism of a judging system that did not punish falls as heavily as the 6.0 system had, thus allowing skaters to win with a fall or even two over a clean skate by another competitor. Then gradually the hostility shifted from the scoring system and the judges to the skater.

Patrick did not help matters, though. He always felt that he deserved to win regardless, and his remarks sometimes came off as arrogance rather than confidence.

Agreed. I think adopting the humility of the Japanese guys or Kim would have gone a long way in how people perceive him, and how they assess his skating.

 

[4everchan]

yup but how many of us have had a post competition interview where we need to answer a bunch of questions on the spot? it's tough... i am sure that sometimes we wish we could have answered things slightly differently...we are lucky, our words won't get around the planet, won't necessarily be misquoted or taken in another context... it's much harder for these guys... and Patrick does it in two languages back to back all the time... and from being bilingual myself, I can say it's hard to go from a loanguage to another, after a stressful/emotional situation.
what I find great with Patrick is that he doesn't give the automatic answers... he tries to really answer... everyone can say "i am happy , i worked hard, YAY!! thanks zamboni Patrick is genuinely answering questions and honouring the presence of the journalist. it's too bad it doesn't go around both ways

You know what......Those are all good!!

 

[mrrice]

I know I sound like I'm gushing over Patrick but, I'm really just observing. Patrick is also very well spoken and I bet he'd be a great commentator.

 

[Rissa]

I know I sound like I'm gushing over Patrick but, I'm really just observing. Patrick is also very well spoken and I bet he'd be a great commentator.

Not gonna lie, I'd be interested in what he has to say about other skaters' skating if they were not his competition.