2015 Skate America Mens FS Oct 24

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think I'm just a bit more generous when it comes to technical calls like that. I'm more about skaters getting awarded for intended jumps, as long as there isn't any egregious edge call or cheated take off. The mechanics of a quad and triple axel are such that Uno/Nguyen couldn't actually execute them if they had a legitimate toe axel.

I also think for a long time Max has been snubbed by the judges, but people need to stop complaining about his win, because he clearly delivered two technically superb programs, whereas none of his competitors did, and this is first and foremost a sport.

 

[Mrs. P]

Was in the arena all weekend (and registered here to join the discussion about it)!

I have to say, I was really struck by the overall somberness of the music most of the men chose for their free skates. Ross Miner's Queen medley, for example, used the saddest Freddie songs he could find, it seemed. And Han Yan's program relied so heavily on the "Kissing You" theme it just sapped the energy of the arena. Jason Brown definitely had the biggest reaction from the crowd, Max's program felt comparatively empty outside of the magnificent jumps. Shoma's program really connected with the audience, particularly given the mostly dreary surroundings.

All of that said, aside from Max's generous PCS, this event felt pretty fairly judged. Just wish these guys would mix it up a bit more!

Thank your for the arena report! And welcome to Golden Skate! Post often and post long!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I hope you're both right, but Han has two horrible programs from Lori that he is obviously uncomfortable with! glorybox was right, it saps all energy from his brilliance like a black hole.

I agree with this. Han Yan's Free program was not engaging at all. For his SP I do like how he's exhibiting a lot more personality, but it still comes across as awkward because he's not exactly a showman but is trying to be in his SP. A for effort though in the SP, but C or worse in the LP.

 

[cheerknithanson]

I must say one reason why I tend to enjoy the men's a lot more than the ladies is the energy. Like in the SP and FP, the men seem to do more engaging and peppy step sequences and exciting mood. Plus more engaging music with an overall performance that draws the crowd in. While the ladies usually do more delicate and dainty. Not as much pep, energy, or spirit.

And this is BESIDES the difficult jumps difference.

 

[Rissa]

I don't know why I continue to get emotionally invested in Denis every GP season, knowing that he consistently bombs his GPs and then turns it on for the major events.

Are you saying we can rest assured he'll turn it in at next 4CC/Worlds? You know, if he does this season too, it'll mean he's consistent... Whatever Denis does during the season, he'll end up on the podium at Worlds, that is actually be a comforting thought. I probably would be taking his bombing much better if I wasn't just missing my chance to see him live.

I must say one reason why I tend to enjoy the men's a lot more than the ladies is the energy. Like in the SP and FP, the men seem to do more engaging and peppy step sequences and exciting mood. Plus more engaging music with an overall performance that draws the crowd in. While the ladies usually do more delicate and dainty. Not as much pep, energy, or spirit.

And this is BESIDES the difficult jumps difference.

Actually I used to see ladies even like this in the past, but not anymore. I think it's mostly thanks to the Russian girls that can do pep energy and spirit as well as any guy. Liza and Radio are there with the best of them. Or Pogo when she's on. I find Pogo a bit Hanyuesque in the way she throws herself into the music, definitely not dainty/delicate type of skater, I'm a fan. The variety they brought in caused me to appreciate the more traditional, elegant, delicate butterfly type of skating too.

And Rika Hongo, can't forget Rika! Way more on the spirit/energy/performance side than the delicate butterfly side, although she's got the traditional thin Asian skater physique. Kanako Murakami is also more of those performer/energy types, such a shame she couldn't keep up tech-wise.

 

[Skater Boy]

Agreed. Maybe at that point he was like, well, if the jumps aren't working and I'm definitely off the podium the least I can do it turn on the performance for the crowd. I think every skater has been there... they're having a bad day and so then they just try to engage the fans. Apathy was the right word though... it looked like he didn't want to continue but then decided to give it a go.

But honestly, when you miss both quads and both axels, and double a lutz and have shaky landings on your 3L and 2A, and are not bringing it for half your program, 77 is too high.

I hope he can bounce back from that though. I don't know why I continue to get emotionally invested in Denis every GP season, knowing that he consistently bombs his GPs and then turns it on for the major events.

So true about how Denis does much better at big events. I know that is life; I kind of wish though he was more consistent or didn't do his "fluke" skates at worlds - I know it Is based on the skate of the day but even if he is injured he shouldn't have skated then I don't think we should have these skaters trying to be heroes or they should realize there are consequences ie you won't walk one day. Clearly Denis was hurting but he is lucky the judges will reward h im at world's.

 

[jenaj]

did I talk about artistry somewhere?

SS are not very good
Transitions: where are they?
choreography: terrible
interpretation: inexistent

Only P/E I agree with.
Also I find Max aesthetically pleasing

I don't think those are the criteria the judges are supposed to use....

 

[Rissa]

I don't think those are the criteria the judges are supposed to use....

Judges are not supposed to use SS/Transitions/Choreography/Interpretation?

 

[LRK]

About Denis - I remember last year, he had this dismal outing, and his LP puzzled me. I didn't "get" it. But I thought to wait until he could perform it better to judge it. And when he did - then it made perfect sense to me. Interestingly, once a program "clicks" with me, generally it still will to some degree even if not skated that well, but I went back to Denis' old performance... and it still felt disjointed to me. So, my conclusion is that my enjoyment of his program was very much dependant - more so than even usually is the case - on his performance of it. Chances are that the same will be the case with this LP.

 

[karne]

Just watched the Men's Free.

1. Max: that was good but... not as good as at Nebelhorn? I mean the choreography, not the execution. I really liked it at Nebelhorn but here it was from jump to jump and not much in between. Did he change anything?

Yes, it's almost completely rechoreographed. And not for the better, IMO.

Also, a bit sad you did your LP recap and went all the way down to Mura but completely skipped someone who handily beat Mura...

Jason Brown with no quad in the SP get 86 and no quad in the free gets 176 points at World Team Trophy.

Max Aaron with a quad-triple in the SP gets 86, and with 2 quads in the FS (and a 2A step out) gets 172 points.

I'd say that's pretty fair.

NOOOOOOOOO COZ HE'S EVIL UNARTISTIC MAX WHO SHOULD NEVAH WIN ANYTHINGGGGGG

I was in the hotel lobby late last night and here came Max Aaron with his skatebag and bag of stuffed animals. I thought, OMG its Max Aaron and then realized I said it out loud not just in my head because Max gave a huge grin. He was so sweet, posed for a photo, thanked me for the kind words and said he had homework to do (he is a finance major and hopes to go to grad school at Harvard someday). I asked about his sister and he said they are getting back on track for their B competition. What a sweet kid and a very happy one last night!

Awwww! That's such a cute story! I'm so jealous of you! I'm so glad you got to meet him!

Internationally I think Max would have still managed high 70's for that FS. After all, his Nebelhorn programs got about 74 with major errors (I think he doubled both quads), so a close to clean FS with two quads and two axels scoring high-70s isn't out of the realm of reason.

This seems like the appropriate moment to insert the following factoid:

Back in April, the rough, not yet finished version of this LP (with equally rough, not so great jumps) got 75 PCS. IN JAPAN.

Maybe I am Max's good luck charm. I have been to only two skating events: 2013 Nationals and 2015 Skate America and he won the gold at both events!

Right. We need to get you to TEB, to the GPF (hopefully), to Nationals, and thence to Boston.

I just watched Nebelhorn and Skate America side by side and quite a bit of the choreography is gone. The music cuts are also a bit different at the end.

Yes, the music cuts are quite different and the choreo is too. I'm actually surprised it came across as well as it did. They must have got started on it the moment he stepped off that plane from Germany, but that's still only three weeks.

I also think for a long time Max has been snubbed by the judges, but people need to stop complaining about his win, because he clearly delivered two technically superb programs, whereas none of his competitors did, and this is first and foremost a sport.

NOOOOOOOOEZ EVIL UNARTISTIC MAX CAN'T WIN ANYTHING, JUMPS SHOULDN'T COUNT AT ALLLLLLLL (unless it's the favourite "artistic" skater landing them).

Haters gonna hate, Max kicked booty patooty and I'll wager pretty strongly he'll do so again.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I feel we don't need to be too harsh and critical at this point. As the season progresses, skaters may make it clear why they picked the music and program they did with smoother performances and executions. Hopefully, some will be brilliant when they peak late season. D10 may just show up in person, or at least evolve from D5 to D9.

 

[TontoK]

What's all this nonsense about a history of "Home Cooking" at Skate America???

Max is the first American man to win Skate America in SIX YEARS. The last American to win was Lysacek in 2009. Before then? Back another six years to Michael Weiss in 2003.

The last American woman? Wagner. Five years ago.

The last pair? 2006. Before then? 1991.

Only American dancers have a consistent recent record of success, and that's hardly surprising or controversial.

Honestly, I think half the people posting just pick up some catch-phrase on random message boards and repeat it without a second thought.

How about some original thought in the forum?

 

[daphenaxa]

I don't think those are the criteria the judges are supposed to use....

? Are you trolling?

 

[Figure 8's]

I think there is way more home cooking at Skate Canada than ever was in Skate America. I also think that the Americans who medaled, deserved them and the Judges got it right. I also am tired of those who make a past time of picking apart the Skaters who won because it was not their favoite, ie Gracie and Max.

 

[MaxSwagg]

I wouldn't say he "kicked booty patooty". A win is a win...but if you really want to get down to it and go there, he won because Shoma effectively let him.

 

[ice coverage]

I wouldn't say he "kicked booty patooty". A win is a win...but if you really want to get down to it and go there, he won because Shoma effectively let him.

But that is the nature of the sport: that one skater's error(s) can open a door for someone else.

What you said about Max can just as easily be said about a zillion other gold medalists at other skating comps -- that someone else "let" them win.

At other comps, Max has made errors and placed lower than he and his fans would like.

Would you diminish other skaters by saying that the only reason that they outplaced Max in the past is because he "let" them?

 

[el henry]

But that is the nature of the sport: that one skater's error(s) can open a door for someone else.

What you said about Max can just as easily be said about a zillion other gold medalists at other skating comps -- that someone else "let" them win.

At other comps, Max has made errors and placed lower than he and his fans would like.

Would you diminish other skaters by saying that the only reason that they outplaced Max in the past is because he "let" them?

:agree: If we are going to judge what skaters "could" do, well heck, let's judge Jason with a landed quad. And if Shoma, or Denis, or Jason, can skate better than Max does at the next comp they will win.

Max won fair and square. Live with it.

 

[MaxSwagg]

:agree: If we are going to judge what skaters "could" do, well heck, let's judge Jason with a landed quad. And if Shoma, or Denis, or Jason, can skate better than Max does at the next comp they will win.

Max won fair and square. Live with it.

Won fair and square, perhaps yes. Thank goodness for his good jumps because that's really all there is. Though I see the improvement and good for him. And it's not "diminishing" to say superior skaters make mistakes that allow lesser skaters to medal or win. He may medal at TEB (and if he does, that's great) but it would be because of Denis' poor condition, or a poor showing from Patrick and Shoma (who are all there vastly superior skaters). This isn't diminishing. It's just the truth, although people tend to find "clarity" abrasive or rude or negative.

 

[TontoK]

Won fair and square, perhaps yes. Thank goodness for his good jumps because that's really all there is. Though I see the improvement and good for him. And it's not "diminishing" to say superior skaters make mistakes that allow lesser skaters to medal or win. He may medal at TEB (and if he does, that's great) but it would be because of Denis' poor condition, or a poor showing from Patrick and Shoma (who are all there vastly superior skaters). This isn't diminishing. It's just the truth, although people tend to find "clarity" abrasive or rude or negative.

Max isn't your favorite, I take it.

That's OK. However, I think it's worth acknowledging that he delivered this weekend when others didn't.

Next time, he may not deliver. Next time, maybe his competitors don't deliver. We'll have to see.

For all the flack Max gets for lacking artistry, he's been pretty well applauded for investing a lot of work to improve this aspect of his skating. Why would it be unreasonable for his PCS to rise, given the level of effort? I just don't see what the problem is.

I see improvement. One small thing in particular is that his position in his sit spin is vastly improved. The back position is much better. I expect we'll see more improvements as he continues to work.

I will say that I miss the old ending of his Black Swan program. It was better than this version.

 

[ice coverage]

Won fair and square, perhaps yes. Thank goodness for his good jumps because that's really all there is. Though I see the improvement and good for him. And it's not "diminishing" to say superior skaters make mistakes that allow lesser skaters to medal or win. He [Idismay[/I] medal at TEB (and if he does, that's great) but it would be because of Denis' poor condition, or a poor showing from Patrick and Shoma (who are all there vastly superior skaters). This isn't diminishing. It's just the truth, although people tend to find "clarity" abrasive or rude or negative.

I didn't say you were abrasive or rude.

But yes, I do find it negative to say that someone else "let" the winner win. And I do find it diminishing.

And your opinion has nothing to do with "truth" or "clarity," by the way.

Max made mistakes at Nebelhorn and placed second to Elladj.
But I have never said and would never say that Max "let" Elladj win.

But I guess by your standards, it would be acceptable for me to say that Max "let" Shoma win the FS in Milwaukee.

I would add that if we waved a magic wand and every single skater skated as cleanly and as perfectly at every competition as s/he does at home in training, the outcomes of many past comps would be different from what they are in reality.