Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16
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- Feb 25, 2014
The point was that he won't be able to keep up through 2018 on the technical side.
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- Aug 4, 2015
Anyone else think that if we were anywhere but in Canada, Yuzu would have gotten more than 88 PCS?
I think there was a bit of inflation going on last week.
I think there was a bit of inflation going on last week.
I don't think it necessarily matters if he doesn't have the highest TES as long as he can get those GOEs and PCSs.
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- Jun 21, 2003
That's what I thought, too, until I actually saw the performances in a fairly big screen today. Both skaters were fairly scored for what they did.
A bit? There was a lot, honestly I expected Yuzuru to also get 90+ PCS. The judges showered Patrick with 10s. The right skater won and Patrick's FS performance was sublime but holy jeez I was shocked seeing protocols. Also expected a higher score for Murakami, he looked so disappointed.
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- Mar 7, 2015
patrick's pcs were about 7% higher than yuzu's... i think that's quite fair... it's quite close when you think of it. only 7%...
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- Jan 13, 2014
Murakami was scored right. That program was a total snoozefest. I don't know if it's the choreography or he just doesn't emote much, in which case the program does not fit him. It felt loong and dry.
Hanyu is such an engaging artist but his bladework, speed and ice coverage on the night were no match for Chan's.
Hanyu is such an engaging artist but his bladework, speed and ice coverage on the night were no match for Chan's.
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- Jan 13, 2014
he doesn't have to. His edges are unreal. Everything looks seamless. Speed and ice coverage take you for a ride. That's skating gold standard right there.
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- Mar 23, 2010
For me Yuzuru is a skater worthy of 88, but we have to be honest, his performance suffered on the day because of the tech while Patrick maxed out and their marks should reflect the difference on a relative basis. I'd probably mark Yuzu around 84, 85. This is not a slight on him, I love him to bits, but the fact is ANYONE who upped their tech, their performance naturally suffers and their mark should reflect this to be fair.
If Patrick did not skate the light out, I can probably accept the mark, but when you rewatch them side by side, I think there should be at least 10 points separate them. At the moment it is only 6.22 points difference or 6.5% (MM is kind to round up to 7%, but really it is 6.5%) With a great performance (and more fully fleshed out choreography) Hanyu can easily break 90s in PCS on a good day. With the two, it is a match up of TES vs PCS, when that happens, it is important to mark both components accurate so it can be a fair fight.
These were their marks at WC2012 / 13 season, I think their difference were much bigger at Skate Canada.
6.2
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2012/WC2012_Men_FS_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013/wc2013_Men_FS_Scores.pdf
Notice I have discounted Olympics scoring all together... frankly neither deserve those marks... Sochi inflation lol... less said the better. :roll5:
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- Dec 29, 2011
You clink to that 7% as if it meant anything. It could mean something, if the judges ever used the whole spectrum of marks we could see - but they don't. The 'top guys' are stuck on the higher range of the PCS anyway, no matter what they do or how they skate, so a difference of 6-7 PCS at the top is way more than that 7% thing suggests.
(Again, I agreed with the PCS gap between the 2, but that use of numbers and statistics is misleading BS)
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- Mar 7, 2015
so how would you express it then?
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- Jan 25, 2013
On paper is on paper. It's not on ice.
Doesn't matter if Tuktamysheva is "on paper" better than many skaters with higher tech, if she can't get it together in her SP/FS.
Hanyu and Tukt were similar in this event - terrible SP, and then a FS which wasn't bad but artistically subpar compared to their past skates, and placed 2nd in competitions people had overwhelmingly pegged them to win quite easily, because "on paper" they had the advantage.
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- Sep 14, 2008
Um no, they weren't.
Hanyu's FS was not artistically sup-par to any he's given post-2012 Romeo+Juliet. The program is so much better than all the others we've been subjected to the past 3 years. Plus he's a much better overall skater than she is. She's not even pushing the tech content as hard in the woman's field (nice of her to bring 3Axel in, but Asada has already done more) as compared to Hanyu for the men's. Plus Hanyu's SP performance was actually great. He did probably the most powerful Double Toeloop of all time, LOL, and then proceeded on to an adequate enough jump combination, phenomenal footwork sequence, and excellent combination spin. Much different than the lackluster performance from Tukt.
This is going to be a long season of you trying to prop Chan up whenever possible, while searching for ways to devalue Hanyu, isn't it. :roll5:
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- Jan 25, 2013
Uh.... you just lauded Hanyu's 2T error as a positive thing, calling it the most powerful 2T of all time (a 2T which looked bad at that with the bent knees). And you're accusing me of trying to search for ways to prop up Chan (especially when I've said things like Chan was overscored in his SP)?!
You don't see anyone calling Chan's SP as "actually great" because he had one of the biggest double lutzes ever! 
Plus, I don't need to prop up Chan just like I don't need to prop up Max - they WON, no matter what I say or what you say.
You on the other hand are finding ways to prop up Hanyu, characterizing his obviously flawed SP as "actually great", and even suggesting he should have won the SP (when Murakami clearly deserved the SP lead) -- although after complaining that Adian should have won the SP at Skate America, I'm thoroughly not surprised. And then you actually asserted that Hanyu should have won overall, even though Chan was much cleaner and he was well behind Chan after the SP, while - to use your own words - searching for ways to devalue Chan like suggesting he lacks musicality when this is arguably his free program with the most musicality.
Oh well, at least the judges disagree with you and as much as you try to trivialize their opinions and say their scores aren't the true scores and the results aren't the true results, they are the ones that most skaters are seeking the approval of. Not you. Not me. We are insignificant by comparison, as much as you try to protest otherwise.
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- Jan 25, 2013
I thought judges 4 and 9 definitely went overboard, but the other judges were pretty correct in their scoring. Chan's only "error" was a quad turned into a triple (which really isn't a visible error like a double or a fall). And SS wise, he put on a clinic, and while I don't like when judges dole out 10's, he deserved it for that particular components. TR could use work (especially into his quads/3A), but he also had some lovely transitions throughout his program, and going into his lutz and after his loop -- and note that a couple judges gave him 8.75 for that when he often scores 9's. PE should have been very high given he skated the overall program very well. Interpretation varies from who you ask, but I think he exhibited a lot of musicality and picked up nuances in the music throughout the performance, and his arms were elegant and varied and held up throughout (especially compared to the rest of the field). Components scores will be invariably overscored for some judges; Hanyu got 9's for his 5-fall Cup of China skate, and him/Ten/Fernandez have all previously gotten 9.5's for execution in programs that had a fall or multiple errors. But it should all balance out. I think overall, though, 95 was an appropriate score for the artistic output of Chan's FS (maybe a point or two less, but not under 93). It was performed/choreographed even better than his TEB FS in my opinion, and that was skated cleanly with 2 quads and got PCS of 96.5.
I would have given Chan 9.50 for SS, 9.00 for TR, 9.25 for PE (did only 1 quad and 1 3A, after all), 9.75 for CH, and 9.50 for IN (works out to 94 PCS). Hanyu I would have given 9.00 for SS, 8.75 for TR (I miss the counter entry into the 3A!), 8.75 for PE (given the errors, including a bad disruptive fall), 9.25 for CH, and 9.00 for IN (works out to 89.5 PCS).
And yes, Murakami was thoroughly underscored here.
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- Sep 14, 2008
Yes! Feel the burn!
I mean it truly was a very powerful Double Toe, LOL. It rocketed off the ice, had a strong landing and flow out, and the air position could actually be considered a difficult variation. LOL!
You don't see anyone calling Chan's SP as "actually great" because he had one of the biggest double lutzes ever!
Well, his SP still had a lot of quality, but his double definitely looked like more of a mistake. It wasn't so explosive, got a bit tilted in the air, a little jittery on the landing. It visibly made him upset. His camel spin afterward should have only been called Level 2 btw, but they just gave him Level 3. He didn't get into the upside down position at all, the only level features in that spin were difficult entry and change of edge.
Well it WAS great (not perfect), in terms of PCS, and the judges agreed so I'm not sure why you're arguing about it. You agree with the judges no matter what, even though the judges do have differing opinions, so you'll have to pick a consistent stance here.
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Hanyu's score is 6.54% lower than Chan's. Chan's score is 6.99% higher than Hanyu's.
I would have scored their PCS at 85 and 91, exactly a 7% advantage for Chan over Hanyu!
Comparing these percentages is silly, of course. All that really matters is how many points of advantage the PCS is giving in comparison to the technical elements. 6 points is approximately the difference between a Double Axel and a (well executed) Triple Axel, which was exactly the technical advantage Hanyu had over Chan in past seasons if they they both skated "their best". I guess we can say they were just about perfectly equal. There, I solved it! No more debate!
(except than Hanyu's program is now even more difficult than before and Chan's slightly easier, so...)
And How would you score this on TES ?
I think Hanyu has about 15-17 points more on TES that he can put on the table if he will eliminate those mistakes he did here, and get's up to his usual quality
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