Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16 | Page 59 | Golden Skate

Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16

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Choreographic transitions should of course be rewarded in the program components.

To me, the GOE on jumps is more problematical. The GOEs are supposed to reward quality, not difficulty.

Sez who? The way the rules have been written, the positive GOE bullet points are intended to reward both quality and added difficulty of the sort that cannot be captured in the base values of the element.

I am also not so keen on 'Tano positions. This makes the jump harder, but it does not make the jump better. to me.

When done well, I think it does make the jump better -- if nothing else, in a similar way that a good triple is "better" than good double.

Sometimes the variations in takeoff/air/landing positions, or the specific transitions in and out, have choreographic meaning in relation to the concept of program as a whole, in which case they can be rewarded in the Choreography (and Transitions) component, as applicable.

If they make the jump harder, they can be rewarded in the element score. Unlike, say, pair lifts, jumps don't have "levels" to earn higher base values. Instead, since the beginning of IJS these variations to jumps have been rewarded in the GOEs, although the document outlining how to reward positive GOEs went through a significant change between early and later IJS.

Also, what's so bad about "telegraphing"? It makes the jump easier

Exactly.

This is a sport. Difficulty is to be rewarded.

Difficulty is not the only thing to be rewarded. Element quality counts. Program construction and overall performance quality also count.

There are multiple options for how to earn points. Skaters who can take advantage of the most of them will earn the most points.

Many skaters have maxed out on the level of difficulty they are able to incorporate. So if they're going to improve their own scores or become/remain competitive against others at their level who are doing higher-value elements, they need to find other ways to make up the points.

Skaters who can't or don't attempt the highest difficulty will have a relative deficit in base value or in those areas of difficulty (jump variations, the difficulty-related aspects of the Skating Skills, Transitions, and Choreography components), which they may or may not be able to make up in quality aspects of the GOEs and in the various program components.

Skaters who attempt greater difficulty may end up sacrificing some quality.

Many skaters may have plateaued on the level of quality they're currently capable of. They can keep working on quality, and on consistency, but a skater whose natural body type does not lend itself easily to huge jumps and/or beautiful positions is not going to compete with the best of the best in those areas. And improvements in those areas may be a slow process over many years. So when putting together this year's program they'll find other ways to try to earn points.

They may find it easier to add certain kinds of difficulty that, if executed adequately, will guarantee higher TES than leaving it out (rotating a harder jump, earning a higher level on a non-jump element) than to make significant improvements in the quality areas of GOEs and PCS.

They also may choose to add jump variations or transitions in hopes of increasing the GOE that way and increasing the Transitions component score.

If they end up making errors on the jump, or if the jump is slow, scratchy, small, telegraphed, etc., they may lose more points that way than they gain by any enhancement. One enhancement to the jump (difficult entry, variation to air position) is only one positive bullet point. The guideline is that it takes two bullet points to earn each positive GOE. If the enhancement is not done well, the mere fact of its existence does not guarantee a higher GOE. And even if it is done well, a significant error on the jump will require negative GOE.

If the transitions are repetitive and/or of poor quality, the negative effect on the Variety and Quality criteria of TR may outweigh any positive effect of Difficulty or Intricacy and may also have a negative effect on Performance/Execution and Choreography.

So throwing in a couple of shallow choctaws before a lutz, or throwing one's arm overhead during the jump by itself is no guarantee of higher scores. I think most judges would rather see and reward higher quality.

But for any given skater who has already maxed out quality at his/her current skill level, including such variations is their best hope, albeit not guaranteed, for higher element scores.

And then there are probably some coaches who don't understand the system quite as well and believe that jump enhancements do guarantee extra points. Or, at lower levels, believe that attempting variations now that don't interfere with landing the jump will serve the skater better in the future when she is able to add more speed and size to the jump and is already comfortable with the variation.
 

That's awesome. And interesting, comparing the two. It's quite apparent that Chan has more ice surface usage, more varied jump placement and greater changes of direction/coverage on his StSq pattern, but Hanyu has a bit better forward/backwards skating, variable lines of entries into his repeated jumps (4T/3A) and more coverage on his ChSp. Also looks like Chan skates a bit more altogether, but that's hard to tell. Both are very intricate programs, and it's cool to see it laid out like this.
 
Those skating pattern videos are amazing! Thank you 4everchan for posting. And thanks to the uploader :)

I'd think too that Chan covers a little more ice than Hanyu, but the difference isn't that big. Would be interesting to see the SP patterns too, when they have a little more similar layouts. It's another proof though that both guys are amazing :love:
 
you are welcome but thanks go to the maker of the videos :) and to viv who pointed them out in the chan fan fest :) i'm just a nessenger :)
Those skating pattern videos are amazing! Thank you 4everchan for posting. And thanks to the uploader :)

I'd think too that Chan covers a little more ice than Hanyu, but the difference isn't that big. Would be interesting to see the SP patterns too, when they have a little more similar layouts. It's another proof though that both guys are amazing :love:
 
Interesting point!

Mumble, mumble..So would you say "exclude difficult entry as a GOE criteria and reward in&out jump transitions exclusively into TR component"?

I don't really have a suggestion, just talking. Gkelly makes some really good points above, especially with respect to skaters that are not at the top levels.
 
The're both so great skaters! But I prefere Chan's skating style, presentation and programs) for me he's a better skater.
 
One week until Barcelona :yahoo:
I hope that's going to be even more epic than Yuzu's NHK and Patrick's SC FS together:laugh:
 
One week until Barcelona :yahoo:
I hope that's going to be even more epic than Yuzu's NHK and Patrick's SC FS together:laugh:

I need them to save some of that epicness for worlds...lets not use it all up so soon :drama:
 
If Hanyu can repeat his NHK performance, that's that.

If that performance was a one-time miracle, I think Chan will still need his second quad toe plus all the "complete package" skills that were on display at Skate Canada to win.
 
If Hanyu can land 3 quads and two 3as, Chan has no margin for error: he has to land 2 quads and one 3a, make no mistakes and hope the judges will be generous with PCS.
 
If Hanyu can land 3 quads and two 3as, Chan has no margin for error: he has to land 2 quads and one 3a, make no mistakes and hope the judges will be generous with PCS.

I hate these rivalries......:dev2:

I can't believe this but, I have never seen Hanyu skate live. However, I must say that it bother's me when people say that Patrick needs a judge to be generous with his PCS. He deserves them. If judges want to knock him on TES, that's fine. But his Component marks are well earned.
 
It's not as if the judges weren't "generous" with PCS with Hanyu too... (and with generous I mean, giving them high PCS, as they deserve)

If Hanyu repeats NHK, he's unbeatable (yay for Captain obvious!:biggrin: ). But that Hanyu would be untouchable completely clean was clear before NHK. The question is how clean will he be? Which is also the same question as before NHK. We'll see who can deliver at the GPF :cheer:
 
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