Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16

[Marin]

Than you OS, I also like Marin girl :agree:

 

[Marin]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHRcJUnrWt_VInlYm1S8URg

My god ....

 

[HanDomi]

Looks like Chanyu will push also great detailed analys of their skating, so much great info :hap57:

 

[Jombi]

Actually, I approve of that. Cut out the meaningless transitions just before a jump and concentrate on the business at hand -- a good, clean entrance. I think that most skaters could raise their point totals (fewer falls, better jumps overall) if they did that.

In your opinion would it constitute a benefit to distinguish (scoring wise) between transitions in & out from jumps and "choreographic" transitions?

 

[jace93]

In your opinion would it constitute a benefit to distinguish (scoring wise) between transitions in & out from jumps and "choreographic" transitions?

but then you have things like Hanyu Spread eagle sandwich in his short program: is it an incredibly difficult technical move? yes! is it a beautiful choreographic solution and the highlight of that program? also yes... so how can you distinguish the two aspects?

 

[Jombi]

but then you have things like Hanyu Spread eagle sandwich in his short program: is it an incredibly difficult technical move? yes! is it a beautiful choreographic solution and the highlight of that program? also yes... so how can you distinguish the two aspects?

I personally would go for including those spread eagles as a "in&out jump transition" and then reward the whole sandwich in the CH component (not just the spread eagles but also the jump itself, regardlessy of how difficult it is, is nestled (?) wonderfully into the program and it is actual choreography). Uhm, I hope it makes sense.
Anyway I'd go this way but it's an arbitrary decision so I can see why this wouldn't work for someone else.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

but then you have things like Hanyu Spread eagle sandwich in his short program: is it an incredibly difficult technical move? yes! is it a beautiful choreographic solution and the highlight of that program? also yes... so how can you distinguish the two aspects?

And isn't that how it should be - a transition into a jump also being a beautiful choreographic moment?

I'd guess as it is now, it should actually be the job of the judges to say: oh, that TR is difficult, but serves no choreographic purpose. Oh, that is beautiful, but technically not as difficult. And that actually managed to be both.
"Choreographic transitions" should help the PCS. Jump transitions the GOE. Well choreographed transitions into jumps can raise both.
(Like Hanyus SP 3A, where that spread eagle sandwich would boost the 3A GOE, but also works for TR and CH - and arguably even for SS and PE)

 

[4everchan]

yup... based on the video, who do you think covers the most ice?

This is supercool! Sometimes, we just garnered distinct impressions but this pattern drawing describes another level of complexity that we TV viewers miss. I wish that we have a way of developing threads for understanding champion skaters' techniques better.

 

[Violet Bliss]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHRcJUnrWt_VInlYm1S8URg

Thank you 4everchan.

May I add both Chan's and Yuzuru's skating patterns on ice?

Big thanks to pku xmy.

eta. To be fair, the patterns shown on the last page linked are not the final patterns, especially Hanyu's. I paused the videos near the ends for the complete patterns. They both have amazing ice coverage. Many other aspects and complexity may be analyzed and discussed based on these coded patterns.

 

[Mathman]

In your opinion would it constitute a benefit to distinguish (scoring wise) between transitions in & out from jumps and "choreographic" transitions?

Choreographic transitions should of course be rewarded in the program components.

To me, the GOE on jumps is more problematical. The GOEs are supposed to reward quality, not difficulty. One of the bullets for positive GOE on a jump is, "difficult entry." Having a difficult entry does not raise the quality of the jump, as other GOE bullets do.(good height and distance, extension and flow on the landing, effortless throughout [effortless? The ISU thinks a quad is effortless -- they mean, of course, "creates the illusion of effortlessness ], matched to the musical structure, etc.)

I am also not so keen on 'Tano positions. This makes the jump harder, but it does not make the jump better. to me.

Also, what's so bad about "telegraphing"? It makes the jump easier and hence more likely to be "better" in the execution (more likely to have good height and distance, flow throughout, etc.). I kind of like a skater who says, "OK, here I go doing my quad -- wait for it -- TADA!"

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[Interspectator]

Thank you 4everchan.

May I add both Chan's and Yuzuru's skating patterns on ice?

Big thanks to pku xmy.

eta. To be fair, the patterns shown on the last page linked are not the final patterns, especially Hanyu's. I paused the videos near the ends for the complete patterns. They both have amazing ice coverage. Many other aspects and complexity may be analyzed and discussed based on these coded patterns.

I think Yuzu's pattern video has been taken down...possibly for fine-tuning? But Patrick's icecoverage chart is great. Though even when seeing it with the naked eye it is obvious how super duper it is.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I think Yuzu's pattern video has been taken down...possibly for fine-tuning? But Patrick's icecoverage chart is great. Though even when seeing it with the naked eye it is obvious how super duper it is.

Still working for me. If banned, it's usually due to music copy rights.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Also, what's so bad about "telegraphing"? It makes the jump easier and hence more likely to be "better" in the execution (more likely to have good height and distance, flow throughout, etc.). I kind of like a skater who says, "OK, here I go doing my quad -- wait for it -- TADA!"

Just my opinion, of course.

Or, "OK, here I go doing my quad -- wait for it -- OOOPS!"

Under 6.0, most skaters paused for "OK, here I go doing my step sequence....." often embellished with some hip actions or face stroking. And lots of toe pick actions in the step sequence itself. It's about selling it.

 

[Interspectator]

Still working for me. If banned, it's usually due to music copy rights.

That must be it. Yuzu used a nicely obscure piece of music, but not obscure enough for the copyright hawks to latch on to it.
The DVD of Abe no Seimei is being re-released as well as the soundtrack to properly capitalize on it this year. -or so I hear.

 

[qwertyskates]

yup... based on the video, who do you think covers the most ice?

Patrick covered a greater area, but Yuzuru isn't far behind. However, remember that Patrick's huge coverage before his jumps is to gather speed while Yuzuru was performing transitions and steps. Patrick's strategy yielded an aesthetically uninterrupted and flawless program, with great flow and speed that is truly *gloriously stunning*, but I love Yuzuru's efforts in adding difficulty, I love it when skaters take it to another level. Love both of them! :luv17::luv17::luv17:If Yuzuru skates his program cleanly, he will beat Patrick, and deservedly.

These come across clearly to me, but I still appreciate how much ice both of them covered! I love them both to bits, they are both epic.

 

[Mathman]

Or, "OK, here I go doing my quad -- wait for it -- OOOPS!"

Under 6.0, most skaters paused for "OK, here I go doing my step sequence....."

Yeah, that pregnant pause. When this was discussed on the forums, the experts on the board revealed that this was because otherwise the judges could not tell what part was supposed to be the step sequence and what part was just skating around.

It's about selling it.

Sell it, sell it, sell it! Now we're getting somewhere! :yes:

 

[Interspectator]

I like transitions into jumps and Tanos when they are successful and add highlights to the programs. Like Richard Dornbush's use of Tanos and arm variations. That was really great. But there's always going to be skaters that use one thing to death just for the points. And I can't blame them for that either. I find Jason Brown and Deniss Vasiliyevs transitions into their triples excellent.
I'd add Yuzu's transitions as well, except the ones into his lutzes. If he's going to have so much trouble with that, I wouldn't mind him just backing into it straight so he can get the thing landed.

 

[qwertyskates]

Or, "OK, here I go doing my quad -- wait for it -- OOOPS!"

Under 6.0, most skaters paused for "OK, here I go doing my step sequence....." often embellished with some hip actions or face stroking. And lots of toe pick actions in the step sequence itself. It's about selling it.

So true, Carolina Kostner knew how to whip the audience into a frenzy with a few sexy hints right before her wonderful trademark StepSequences. To Patrick's credit, the speed with which he gathered into his jumps is so lightning fast the camera had difficulty keeping up with him, and it didn't feel like telegraphing, and more like the rocket propulsion into aerial feats that is a sight to behold.

 

[Jombi]

The GOEs are supposed to reward quality, not difficulty. One of the bullets for positive GOE on a jump is, "difficult entry." Having a difficult entry does not raise the quality of the jump, as other GOE bullets do.

Interesting point!

Mumble, mumble..So would you say "exclude difficult entry as a GOE criteria and reward in&out jump transitions exclusively into TR component"? Maybe with an extra accent on differentiation and evaluation of both choreo TR and in&out jump TR (since the latter is no more considered in the goe)?

Also, what's so bad about "telegraphing"? It makes the jump easier and hence more likely to be "better" in the execution (more likely to have good height and distance, flow throughout, etc.). I kind of like a skater who says, "OK, here I go doing my quad -- wait for it -- TADA!"

Make them shine-out!
Good telegraphing
Bad telegraphing

 

[Jombi]

Or, "OK, here I go doing my quad -- wait for it -- OOOPS!"

UAHUAH!