Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16

[Mathman]

Patrick believes that skating is not just about the jumps - it's everything including the movements, from his core to his fingertips and every little details. His emphasis is on the expression through body movement on ice. Also judging by the way he reacted to the quad controversy during Plushenko's olympics, he definitely believes that figure skating is an art itself…

as a musician, i feel chan's interpretation is more wholesome and genuine as it goes from the blade through the whole body... there are a lot of skaters who interpret music with arms and facial expression but these movements sometimes are not grounded into the core nor do they are felt into the entire body…

As a decade-long Patrick Chan fan I see three distinct stages in his journey. Below are my two all-time favorite performances, each marking the beginning of something new, something amazing.

Stage one. Patrick burst onto the scene with this performance. (2008 Canadian Nationals). He had no quad and barely a triple Axel in his arsenal, but my, oh my, I couldn't believe my eyes. The way he moved his feet throughout the performance was hypnotizing. The jumps seemed to spring spontaneously from the footwork of their own accord. To me, this was new kind of figure skating altogether.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc2jXafZZws

Stage two. If only Patrick could get a quad he would be unbeatable. He got a quad. He was unbeatable. This stage was somewhat less interesting and unique to me, but it brought him victory after victory. The question was, "He's got happy feet, he's got a quad, but does he have the soul of an artist?"

Stage three.. Patrick dropped this bombshell at the 2012 Worlds exhibition gala.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZKX--skJTI

The next year this became the basis of his Elegy short program. Patrick made a conscious decision to turn his attention to the performance art side of figure skating. This is the Patrick that is praised in the two quoted posts above. (But I still have a soft spot in my heart for 2008 Patrick. )

 

[Bonesfan]

As a decade-long Patrick Chan fan I see three distinct stages in his journey. Below are my two all-time favorite performances, each marking the beginning of something new, something amazing.

Stage one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc2jXafZZws

Stage two.

Stage three..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZKX--skJTI

The next year this became the basis of his Elegy short program. Patrick made a conscious decision to turn his attention to the performance art side of figure skating. This is the Patrick that is praised in the two quoted posts above. (But I still have a soft spot in my heart for 2008 Patrick. )

Stage four?

 

[4everchan]

stage four is when patrick brings up a bit his bv so that stage 3 style + a better BV makes him unbeatable like in stage 2 yeah.. i am dreaming

Stage four?

 

[Bonesfan]

Stage four?

stage four is when patrick brings up a bit his bv so that stage 3 style + a better BV makes him unbeatable like in stage 2 yeah.. i am dreaming

:thumbsup: Patrick doesn't need to be unbeatable though - he was and is a champion and his beautiful skating continues to shine. A lot of current and up and coming skaters look up to Patrick, even as they aspire to pass him. It's great to have him back!

 

[4everchan]

totally agree

:thumbsup: Patrick doesn't need to be unbeatable though - he was and is a champion and his beautiful skating continues to shine. A lot of current and up and coming skaters look up to Patrick, even as they aspire to pass him. It's great to have him back!

 

[4everchan]

mathman, thanks for sharing the videos

 

[yellowricenoodle]

:thumbsup: Patrick doesn't need to be unbeatable though - he was and is a champion and his beautiful skating continues to shine. A lot of current and up and coming skaters look up to Patrick, even as they aspire to pass him. It's great to have him back!

Yeah he doesn't need to be unbeatable for us to recognise that he's a great figure skater. But that's just how we view him as a fan of figure skating. My guess is as an athlete himself, Patrick NEEDS to be unbeatable in order to get that OGM.

 

[formersk8ter]

I realize this thread was started in September, but I don't think there IS a "Chan vs. Hanyu" anymore.

 

[blueberryhill]

If I beg, will you change your minds?

Personally, I learn the most when posters come on board to tell me I'm all wet and know nothing about skating. (I won't mention any names, but it's not Fred Astaire. )

I was told of your post. Thanks for your offer. It was sweet of you to say that. I also share your sentiments; I say often that even though I know more about fs then the average Joe, I constantly am reminded on forums how many people have a vastly superior knowledge than I do. The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.

I discovered the ISU forum in 2006 and i lurked for 9 years without joining or writing a single post. In the beginning I learned so much. Sadly that forum is in shambles caused by a mass exodus of insightful posters (I miss you Dragonlady!) and not worth visiting. I was cajoled by another member into joining Goldenskate in November. After just a week in this thread I stopped ultimately returning just a few days ago.

I can tell you the exact moment forums shifted for me. It was during the 2010 Olympics. On the day Joannie Rochette's mother tragically passed away I read that on a forum, someone posted the wish that it had been Patrick Chan's mother that died instead. If hindsight is 20/20, that should have been the moment I exited skating forums. Instead, this has gotten even more prevalent as anyone who has been on this thread can attest to. I just can't fathom what would drive a person to express such malevolence towards another person.

Mathman, I would love to engage in thoughtful exchanges of ideas about fs but it ain't gonna happen here. This thread is populated by zealots who do not even let the most benign comment that might cast a shadow on their skater to slip by. And if you want to understand the meaning of schadenfreude well you've come to the right place. I'm aware that my leaving will change nothing. Haters gotta hate but at least I choose not to expose myself to such venom and vitriol.

Hey... in the spirit of the season, Happy Holidays and all the best to you and yours!

 

[MaxSwagg]

...how am I going to get a Chanyu fix if Patrick can't even get on the podium? He needs to get it together!

 

[qwertyskates]

If I beg, will you change your minds?

Personally, I learn the most when posters come on board to tell me I'm all wet and know nothing about skating. (I won't mention any names, but it's not Fred Astaire. )

Mathman, I learned much more from you than anyone can imagine, and they are such humourous, witty, gentle lessons. Thank you for your wonderful presence here. I won't engage in quarrels, but I will always have fun going through the nerdy bits with you. :agree:

 

[MaiKatze]

I think the year off has really hurt Patrick's chances. When I look back at these last few years, and compare it to now....you have to bring your a-game, even if you're Patrick Chan. Yuzuru won the Olympics with a less than stellar performance. I think that this must have motivated more than if he had won with a spectacular performance. Both Patrick and Yuzuru couldn't have been happy with the results of the Olympics, even with the medals. It's understandable that Patrick needed or wanted a break. And he couldn't have foreseen that his main rivals would rise as fast as they did, because who really did? (Maybe Brian Orser...) Frankly, even if he gets back to his old form, it'll be nearly impossible to beat them, and they (Javier and Yuzuru) even have a mistake-cushion. It seems like the situation is reversed to a few years ago, when he was the one with the mistake cushion.

I just rewatched a tape of 2013 Worlds. Yuzuru and Javier did not look like champions. And especially Yuzuru when it comes to stamina, he has improved in such ways, it's almost defies believe that this is a skater who collapsed on the ice after a long program, barely was able to stand, who has asthma.....I mean, it's a miracle that he dominates now, but in hindsight there must've been some awesome plan behind that. (Again Borser voodoo?) Whenever he skated with mistakes, I wondered if he wouldn't do better if he'd not add that much difficulty. But he did and he rose to unbelievable heights. I still believe that Patrick has it in him to win Worlds. But that will mean, that this World Championship would be a competition that I don't want to see, because it would be splatfest with PChan the last man left standing. This GPF alone is better than all the Sochi competitions combined. It's weird how the Olmpics are such an important event in the minds of people, but often times are weaker than Grand Prix events. I don't presume to know Patrick Chan, but if he takes this "defeat" as a motivation he can certainly catch up. It's a lot of hard work though, and nothing is guaranteed. It's time to face the fact that it's simply not 2013 anymore. Time waits for no one. And neither do the judges.

2018....who knows who will have risen from the shadows to claim the crown. Could be Patrick, could be Yuzuru or even Boyang Jin. That's the excitement of the sport.

 

[qwertyskates]

As a decade-long Patrick Chan fan I see three distinct stages in his journey. Below are my two all-time favorite performances, each marking the beginning of something new, something amazing.

Stage one. Patrick burst onto the scene with this performance. (2008 Canadian Nationals). He had no quad and barely a triple Axel in his arsenal, but my, oh my, I couldn't believe my eyes. The way he moved his feet throughout the performance was hypnotizing. The jumps seemed to spring spontaneously from the footwork of their own accord. To me, this was new kind of figure skating altogether.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc2jXafZZws

Stage two. If only Patrick could get a quad he would be unbeatable. He got a quad. He was unbeatable. This stage was somewhat less interesting and unique to me, but it brought him victory after victory. The question was, "He's got happy feet, he's got a quad, but does he have the soul of an artist?"

Stage three.. Patrick dropped this bombshell at the 2012 Worlds exhibition gala.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZKX--skJTI

The next year this became the basis of his Elegy short program. Patrick made a conscious decision to turn his attention to the performance art side of figure skating. This is the Patrick that is praised in the two quoted posts above. (But I still have a soft spot in my heart for 2008 Patrick. )

Wow, you've nailed it, this shows the evolution of Patrick, he skated first with power and then with soul. He skated both wonderfully - he made skating an art, not because he performed artistically, but when you watch him you understand that skating itself *IS* an art, that speed, sweeping power, slicing and splicing in the blades, the control of velocity and counter-forces, those inhuman angles as the body pivots against gravity, this is not "ballet on ice". This is what I meant by saying I don't really care if he has jumps because this is the level of skating I feel which is just as important to the sport - the body, blade to ice, and to every note, nuance and emotion of the music. It's great to punctuate his performance with powerful jumps, but if they are triples or quads, it doesn't matter at all. I don't really care if Patrick gets on the podium or wins or loses to Hanyu, great if he gets a medal, but beautiful skating is forever.

In that sense, I don't see a Chan vs Hanyu thread as a "now that Patrick is thoroughly beaten even by Shoma in scores what can this off the podium has-been bring next to the competition?" kind of thread.

It's to me much more interesting to analyse and examine both strengths and weaknesses of the two most interesting skaters of our time.

Coincidentally, they both head two different qualities and aspects of the sport, one in amazing technicals and jumps, the other in amazing SS.

I wish someone would do a similar analysis with Hanyu's jumps and SS too, instead of simply going gaga over the scores. I feel that his SP Chopin was really the best I've seen from Hanyu, not so much Seimei, as he tries to take on the difficulty of the crazy flow of a Chopin. His GP SP was the first time I start to see the maturity of Hanyu, and I'm glad that he is moving away from "cute" to "lethal".

However, I agree with almost everyone that Patrick needs to work harder with a jumps and technical coach to get back to the 2008 Patrick.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Maybe he can take from Brian. I actually think Yuzu would love that.

 

[Bonesfan]

Maybe he can take from Brian. I actually think Yuzu would love that.

I think BOrser said that he's "full up" on Senior Men until 2018 with Javi, Nam and Yuzuru?

 

[MaxSwagg]

I think BOrser said that he's "full up" on Senior Men until 2018 with Javi, Nam and Yuzuru?

Oh, he can fit one more in...

 

[Li'Kitsu]

No, he can't. He already has so many skaters, he's going to pretty much all events. He has other skaters then Yuzu and Javi too.

And I'm not sure Nam would like a perpetual SC stuation where he gets constantly shoved aside for the "returning Canadian champ".

And the most important argument: Yuzu might like it, but don't make Javi jealous. Yuzu is his skating wife, no sharing!

 

[4everchan]

ermmm... the only person who can answer this question is Brian Orser....

no point speculating and talking about skating wives or what not....

finally.... as mentioned before, Brian and Patrick have known each other FOR A VERY LONG TIME.... if they both wanted to work together on a regular basis, they would have done so....

Don't forget that Brian Orser just took some of our Canadian female skaters as well... he is busy yes, but if both Patrick and him wanted to make it happen, they would work it out...

No, he can't. He already has so many skaters, he's going to pretty much all events. He has other skaters then Yuzu and Javi too.

And I'm not sure Nam would like a perpetual SC stuation where he gets constantly shoved aside for the "returning Canadian champ".

And the most important argument: Yuzu might like it, but don't make Javi jealous. Yuzu is his skating wife, no sharing!

 

[Interspectator]

ermmm... the only person who can answer this question is Brian Orser....

no point speculating and talking about skating wives or what not....

finally.... as mentioned before, Brian and Patrick have known each other FOR A VERY LONG TIME.... if they both wanted to work together on a regular basis, they would have done so....

Don't forget that Brian Orser just took some of our Canadian female skaters as well... he is busy yes, but if both Patrick and him wanted to make it happen, they would work it out...

Orser said he was not taking any more Senior Men last season, that his primary focus was Javi, Yuzu and Nam. The situation has probably not changed.

And the whole skating wife thing was what Javi said about Yuzu last season too.
Yuzu said Javi was like an older brother, and Javi said Yuzu was his skating wife.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

ermmm... the only person who can answer this question is Brian Orser....

no point speculating and talking about skating wives or what not....

finally.... as mentioned before, Brian and Patrick have known each other FOR A VERY LONG TIME.... if they both wanted to work together on a regular basis, they would have done so....

Don't forget that Brian Orser just took some of our Canadian female skaters as well... he is busy yes, but if both Patrick and him wanted to make it happen, they would work it out...

The skating wife part was obviously a joke.

And I doubt that Brian would throw any of his students - who he had for quite a while and cares for a lot - under the bus for anybody new. Anybody, not even Patrick Chan.

There would be enough other coaches who would be glad to take Patrick, I'm sure. No need to push him to the busiest coach currently.