"Your" scoring of the 2016 Worlds' Ladies

[solani]

In my opinion their prerotations look the same. It's more than 1/2 turn before she leaves the ice.
https://40.media.tumblr.com/3b5b455e40fe1ec17b896378b792069b/tumblr_o5dgp5zmKN1qfbp2ao1_1280.png

Thanks for pointing that out, last time I looked closely at Satako's toeloop was at the end of last year. And after looking at two of Satoko's toeloops from her FS at Worlds (2T and 3T) I think that she improved her toe a lot. Good for her! :agree:
If someone's interested:
Satoko's 1. 2A-3T: 3T toepick - last pressure point - leaves the ice
Evgenia's 3S-3T: 3T toepick - last pressure point - leaves the ice
I chose jumps that both did late in the program, so that we see the worst - and both still seem ok to me. The take-off is forward for both Satoko and Evgenia, but that's fine.

 

[ioanna]

Thanks for pointing that out, last time I looked closely at Satako's toeloop was at the end of last year. And after looking at two of Satoko's toeloops from her FS at Worlds (2T and 3T) I think that she improved her toe a lot. Good for her! :agree:
If someone's interested:
Satoko's 1. 2A-3T: 3T toepick - last pressure point - leaves the ice
Evgenia's 3S-3T: 3T toepick - last pressure point - leaves the ice
I chose jumps that both did late in the program, so that we see the worst - and both still seem ok to me. The take-off is forward for both Satoko and Evgenia, but that's fine.

Thank you for the screencaps. Yep, they pretty much look the same. Satoko's progress is difficult to notice because it's a slow process but it's happening.

 

[EdgeCall]

Since the jumps are being discussed now, what about Ashley's 3F-3T in the SP? The protocol and BoP say it's clean, and the usual 25fps videos seem to confirm this. However I have found a 720p 60fps version, which is apparently only accessible via youtube downloader. Watching the better resolution frame-by-frame the 3T seems UR to me. Can anyone confirm?

 

[hurrah]

Since the jumps are being discussed now, what about Ashley's 3F-3T in the SP? The protocol and BoP say it's clean, and the usual 25fps videos seem to confirm this. However I have found a 720p 60fps version, which is apparently only accessible via youtube downloader. Watching the better resolution frame-by-frame the 3T seems UR to me. Can anyone confirm?

It looks nearly 1/2 under-rotated to me. Definitely more than 1/4 under-rotated.

So how come this is okay, and yet Mao's triple-axel was seen as under-rotated?? Judges, please be consistent!

 

[EdgeCall]

It looks nearly 1/2 under-rotated to me. Definitely more than 1/4 under-rotated.

So how come this is okay, and yet Mao's triple-axel was seen as under-rotated?? Judges, please be consistent!

You mean almost <<? I had the same thought first, but if you are a bit lenient regarding direction of movement at takeoff I think it's not that bad. Still it looks like an uncalled UR.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I've made a video that focuses on the 3t featuring Satoko, Zhenya, Ashley, and Anna. It will take a while to upload but I'll put it up ASAP because screen caps are even less reliable than video IMO because you need motion and to be able to reference when the toe pick hits the ground and when it finally goes into the air.

Since Satoko doesn't do a 3-3 in the FS I thought it would be unfair to use any jumps from those programs. I used the SP 3-3's from WC 2016.

 

[solani]

I've made a video that focuses on the 3t featuring Satoko, Zhenya, Ashley, and Anna. It will take a while to upload but I'll put it up ASAP because screen caps are even less reliable IMO because you need motion and to be able to reference when the toe pick hits the ground and when it finally goes into the air.

Since Satoko doesn't do a 3-3 in the FS I thought it would be unfair to use any jumps from those programs. I used the SP 3-3's from WC 2016.

Regarding screen caps: I totally agree, you can really mess with those and give a wrong impression of what actually happened. And only one picture of the take-off is definitely not enough, because you don't know in which direction the skater was going when the take-off was started with the toepick.And it's always difficult to tell when the skater actually leaves the ice. Satoko is picking extremely far-right, I think that really speeds up her rotation. But I want to add that her 2T take-off doesn't look different from her 3T take-off. So I think the only difference regarding 3-3 or 2-3 for Satoko is wether she's able to fully rotate the jump on the landing or not.
I want to add that Evgenia and Satoko point there toes more during the rotation than f.e. Ashley. I think this has to be considered as well. For me the last pressure point is when the leg goes straight (I look at the knee). Only looking at when the toepick leaves the ice can be very misleading in my opinion.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Ok so it isn't the best video ever made and I accidentally uploaded the wrong version with errors but whatever because I don't have time today to sit thru another hour upload.

2016 WC SP Triple Toe Jumpamatron

https://youtu.be/_z2Dk46VCjA
Available up to 1080p HD

Zhenya 3lo-3t 11.74 Pts (10% bonus)
Satoko 3z-3t 11.00
Ashley 3f-3t 11.00
Anna 3z-3t 11.70

 

[Mrs. P]

Thanks Sam!

Just wondering...what was the song in the background?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Thanks Sam!

Just wondering...what was the song in the background?

Other Lives "Speed Tape"


I just went back and added it to the description. Thx

 

[Isabel_O'Reilly]

There aren't many skaters with a better toeloop technique imho, I think you're exceptionally picky. Yes, the take-off is forward, but many skaters do that. To me it's not exactly the point where the toepick leaves the ice, but the last moment where the skater puts pressure on the toepick, the rotation starts right afterwards, that's why it seems as if there is more pre-rotation than there really is, because the jump isn't very big.
I think that Evgenias jumps are rather big for her tiny frame (except the axel). I wonder how she will develop over the years, I'm not as sceptical as I was at the beginning of the season. With all that tano and rippon training she might just be able to keep her jumps.

When people say the take-off is forward, what is the problem with that? When I went back to skating temporarily in fall 2014 it didn't take more than a couple of weeks to get back to landing the Axel and 2Sal even though it had been 6 years since I had figure skated but landing the 2Toe was much more tricky at first because I still had wrong ideas in my head from my focus on prerotation. I didn't call it that in my head until now but that was what I was focusing on: the idea that you take off immediately. My coach had to get me to do toe loops from a standstill three-turn to trust the outside edge I was on to help me take off. You run on the outside edge and take off into the air just before you foot would come so far past the toepick foot that you would be stuck. Your upper body is facing forward at that point even though your toepick is still angled back the way you came and so is the the front of your other foot but that the only way to get from the position where (I am a left-handed jumper) your left foot is going past your right toepick foot to the required air position where my right foot is crossed at the ankle over my left foot is to start that transition on the ice. Are skaters going further than that and actually taking off with both feet forward?

 

[mustafakent]

I did rescoring the event too.I was a judge and technical specialist at the same time.Changed some levels and gave UR, edge calls.

SHORT PROGRAM
gracie
3lz3t 10.30 10.30
lsp3 2.40 3.32
fcsp4 3.20 4.03
3f 5.83 4.98
2a 3.63 3.90
stsq4 3.90 5.54
ccosp3p4 3.50 4.47
ss: 8.57
tr: 8.54
ch: 8.64
pe: 8.43
in: 8.38
36.54+34.04=70.58

anna
3lz3t 10.30 11.27
3lo 5.10 6.06
fcsp4 3.20 4.08
2a 3.30 4.02
ccosp3p4 3.50 4.28
stsq4 3.90 5.14
lsp4 2.70 3.27
ss: 8.37
tr: 8.21
ch: 8.02
pe: 8.17
in: 8.42
38.12+32.95=71.07

evgenia
ccosp3p4 3.50 4.50
stsq4 3.90 4.96
3f 5.83 5.40
2a 3.63 4.70
3lo3t 10.34 11.33
fcsp4 3.20 3.83
lsp4 2.70 3.67
ss: 8.18
tr: 8.57
ch: 7.21
pe: 7.96
in: 8.30
38.39+32.17=70.56

ashley
3f3t 9.60 10.47
fssp4 3.00 3.78
ccosp4 3.50 4.14
2a 3.63 4.57
3lo 5.61 6.78
stsq3 3.30 4.55
lsp4 2.70 3.33
ss: 8.36
tr: 8.96
ch: 9.01
pe: 9.67
in: 9.67
37.62+36.53=74.15

elena
3lz3t 10.30 10.44
fcsp4 3.20 4.24
ccosp3p4 3.50 3.95
3f 5.83 4.87
2a 3.63 3.77
stsq4 3.90 4.60
lsp4 2.70 3.88
ss: 8.03
tr: 7.95
ch: 7.12
pe: 8.14
in: 7.91
35.75+31.32=67.07

satoko
3lz3t 10.30 10.30
lsp4 2.70 3.96
fcsp4 3.20 4.14
stsq4 3.90 5.37
3f 4.07 2.33
2a 3.63 4.13
ccosp3p4 3.50 4.27
ss: 8.26
tr: 8.19
ch: 8.67
pe: 8.14
in: 8.16
34.50+33.13=67.63

ashley : 37.62+36.53=74.15
anna : 38.12+32.95=71.07
gracie : 36.54+34.04=70.58
evgenia: 38.39+32.17=70.56
satoko : 34.50+32.92=67.63
elena : 35.75+31.32=67.07

FREE SKATE
evgenia
3f3t 9.60 10.80
3lze 4.20 3.00
combo 3.50 4.44
step 3.90 4.81
3f 5.83 7.07
3lo 5.61 6.92
2a2t2t 6.49 7.03
3s3t 9.57 10.82
2a 3.63 4.17
choreo 2.00 3.18
combo 3.50 4.57
layback 2.70 3.59
ss: 8.37
tr: 8.44
ch: 8.49
pe: 8.71
in: 8.47
70.40+67.96=138.36

ashley
2a 3.30 4.03
3f3t< 8.30 7.67
2a2t 4.60 5.29
sit 3.00 3.74
combo 3.50 3.91
3lo3s< 9.46 8.73
3f< 4.07 2.48
3lo 5.61 7.28
step 3.30 4.26
3lz 6.60 6.91
choreo 2.00 3.57
combo 3.50 4.00
ss: 8.54
tr: 8.83
ch: 9.37
pe: 9.41
in: 9.24
61.87+72.62=134.49

satoko
3lz2t2lo< 8.56 7.53
3lo 5.10 5.00
step 3.90 5.13
3f 5.30 5.10
combo 3.50 4.11
3lz 6.60 6.60
2a3t 8.36 8.80
camel 3.20 4.06
3s 4.84 4.77
2a3t 8.36 8.36
choreo 2.00 3.66
layback 2.70 3.97
ss: 8.44
tr: 8.27
ch: 8.84
pe: 8.67
in: 8.31
67.09+68.04=135.13

anna
3lz3t 10.30 11.57
3lo3s 10.00 10.94
3lz 6.00 6.12
step 3.90 4.81
combo 3.50 3.88
2a 3.63 4.57
3lo2t 7.04 7.99
choreo 2.00 2.66
2a 3.63 4.53
3fe 4.08 3.06
combo 3.50 4.48
layback 2.70 3.52
ss: 8.49
tr: 8.34
ch: 8.01
pe: 8.21
in: 8.37
68.13+66.27=134.40

elena
3lz3t 10.30 10.43
3f 5.30 5.89
3lz 6.00 5.71
combo 3.50 4.17
step 3.90 4.60
3lo3s 11.00 11.13
2a 3.63 3.37
3lo2t 7.04 6.91
choreo 2.00 3.00
2a 3.63 3.27
combo 3.50 4.09
layback 2.70 3.70
ss: 8.19
tr: 8.00
ch: 7.33
pe: 8.08
in: 8.16
66.27+63.61=129.88

gracie
3lz3t< 9.00 6.90
3lo 5.10 5.93
step 3.90 5.26
2a 3.30 3.77
camel 3.20 4.07
2a3t2t 9.79 10.54
3f2t 7.26 6.68
2lz 2.31 2.31
choreo 2.00 3.34
3s 4.84 5.09
layback 2.70 3.58
combo 3.50 4.48
ss: 8.64
tr: 8.46
ch: 8.54
pe: 7.31
in: 7.73
61.95+65.08=126.03 -1.00

evgenia: 70.40+67.96=138.36
satoko : 67.09+68.04=135.13
ashley : 61.87+72.62=134.49
anna : 68.13+66.27=134.40
elena : 66.27+63.61=129.88
gracie : 61.95+65.08=126.03 -1.00

OVERALL

evgenia: 70.56+138.36=208.92
ashley : 74.15+134.49=208.64
anna : 71.07+134.40=205.47
satoko : 67.63+135.13=202.76
elena : 67.07+129.88=196.95
gracie : 70.58+126.03=196.61

 

[CarneAsada]

Well, I'm sure if Mao ever adopted such an inferior technique, judges would immediately mark that as the worst sin in jumping technique.

Mao used to have a toe-Axel back in her junior days (look at her 3-3-3 attempt or her 3F-3T at her first Junior Worlds), but she for some strange reason felt the need to fix her technique. I have no idea why she bothered trying to improve/fix her takeoffs on the toe (for the 2006-07 season) and Lutz (2008-09, 2010-11) takeoffs when clearly, neither of these flaws actually matter.

 

[solani]

When people say the take-off is forward, what is the problem with that?

The ISU rulebook says that if the take-off is "clearly forward (or backward for the axel)" the jump is "cheated" and should be downgraded. But there's no real definition what a clearly forward take-off is, but I think everyone supposes that it's 180 degrees prerotation. But as far as I know only toe axels have been downgraded in the past, not toeloops with more than 180 degrees prerotation.
Sam-Skwantch's video clearly shows that Anna has less prerotation on the toeloop than Evgenia and Satoko. Yuna had even less prerotation I think. I think that Anna has very good jumps when she lands them. Very good height. Good height/distance should be worth 2 bullet points when it comes to GOE.

 

[solani]

Mao used to have a toe-Axel back in her junior days (look at her 3-3-3 attempt or her 3F-3T at her first Junior Worlds), but she for some strange reason felt the need to fix her technique. I have no idea why she bothered trying to improve/fix her takeoffs on the toe (for the 2006-07 season) and Lutz (2008-09, 2010-11) takeoffs when clearly, neither of these flaws actually matter.

I think it matters. When the skater does a toe-axel the body is already rotating when the skater picks. And those jumps get downgraded.

 

[Blades of Passion]

For me the last pressure point is when the leg goes straight (I look at the knee). Only looking at when the toepick leaves the ice can be very misleading in my opinion.

Someone can have a straight leg and still be exerting rotational force with their foot/ankle. I don't at all agree with your method. The point the toepick leaves the ice on takeoff is the most relevant, because inherently the skater is still pressing into the ice. Only the very little last part of the toepick touching the ice can perhaps be discounted, if it's skimming off.

Since the jumps are being discussed now, what about Ashley's 3F-3T in the SP? The protocol and BoP say it's clean, and the usual 25fps videos seem to confirm this. However I have found a 720p 60fps version, which is apparently only accessible via youtube downloader. Watching the better resolution frame-by-frame the 3T seems UR to me. Can anyone confirm?

She did a much better job than usual on this combo, getting straighter back into the toe and up into the air. Still 1/4 turn short but that's legal.

I wish she would jump her Flip bigger like she used to, though. Hate how Arutyunyan changed her technique there, going into the jump with less speed and jumping it smaller on a diagonal.

 

[Moxiejan]

Takeoff is measured by the position of the skating foot, not by the position of the free leg (in edge jumps) or the picking foot (in toepick-assisted jumps).

 

[solani]

Someone can have a straight leg and still be exerting rotational force with their foot/ankle. I don't at all agree with your method. The point the toepick leaves the ice on takeoff is the most relevant, because inherently the skater is still pressing into the ice. Only the very little last part of the toepick touching the ice can perhaps be discounted, if it's skimming off.

It's a fluent movement. I don't think that the last moment the toepick touches the ice is the most relevant, you cannot really jump with the ankles only, you jump with the knees and ankles at the same time. And if the skater's pointing the toes while rotating in the air the last image of the toepick on the ice can be very misleading, especially when we look at skaters who rotate fast because they have tiny jumps. That's why I think the ISU should award big jumps much more than they do know. Those tiny jumps look neat and clean but aren't really what we want to see.

 

[hurrah]

Mao used to have a toe-Axel back in her junior days (look at her 3-3-3 attempt or her 3F-3T at her first Junior Worlds), but she for some strange reason felt the need to fix her technique. I have no idea why she bothered trying to improve/fix her takeoffs on the toe (for the 2006-07 season) and Lutz (2008-09, 2010-11) takeoffs when clearly, neither of these flaws actually matter.

Yes, I remember that. I remember she used to get endless level of grief about her toe loop technique on this very forum. No doubt the rules would have changed to penalize this technique if Mao hadn't changed it. Putting Mao aside, toe-axel is an inferior technique and should be counted as such, just as under-rotations are. If toe-axels are not going to be penalized, then neither should under-rotations be.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Takeoff is measured by the position of the skating foot, not by the position of the free leg (in edge jumps) or the picking foot (in toepick-assisted jumps).

Looking at only the position of the skating foot, at the beginning of takeoff, is to ignore the mechanics of a jump. All jumps exist within circle and they don't magically just all happen in the same way.

I don't think that the last moment the toepick touches the ice is the most relevant, you cannot really jump with the ankles only, you jump with the knees and ankles at the same time.

You're discounting the way the toepick can be dug into the ice and spun, though. Also the hips and the entire body. You can swing yourself into a jump. Or, you can jump, and THEN rotate (the ideal technique). People are doing the more swingy technique these days, since pre-rotations aren't being watched closely enough and since lots of +GOE is being handed out for that technique anyway. It makes the jump easier and thus more consistent.