"Your" scoring of the 2016 Worlds' Ladies

[solani]

You're discounting the way the toepick can be dug into the ice and spun, though. Also the hips and the entire body. You can swing yourself into a jump. Or, you can jump, and THEN rotate (the ideal technique). People are doing the more swingy technique these days, since pre-rotations aren't being watched closely enough and since lots of +GOE is being handed out for that technique anyway. It makes the jump easier and thus more consistent.

I'm not totally discounting it. It's just that you cannot see any of those little things going on in realtime. So I think that the last moment the skater vaults himself into the air is relevant. But you're right, those skaters have a very flat trajectory, that makes the landings much easier and also underrotations on the landing less visible. Not so many skaters would go for it if big jumps would be rewarded.

 

[Moxiejan]

Looking at only the position of the skating foot, at the beginning of takeoff, is to ignore the mechanics of a jump. All jumps exist within circle and they don't magically just all happen in the same way.

For purposes of measuring the number of revolutions completed (as well as correct edge) it's the position of skating foot on takeoff and then position of skating foot on landing.

The quality of the mechanics of the jump (what the body is doing) is measured in the GOE. Obviously, the "correctness" of this varies from jump to jump. If the mechanics of all jumps were the same, a salchow and a lutz would have the same base value.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It's just that you cannot see any of those little things going on in realtime.

I can.

But then this is something I've been looking at a ton for 10 years now, since the days of Kimmie Meissner's pre-rotated toeloop technique and various other peculiarities that started popping up (or rather becoming more apparent) with CoP.

Anyway, if you're making the "realtime" argument (yeah, you won't see the very precise spot as well in realtime) then you also have to say the same about the landing point. So then it would make no sense to only look at landings in slow-motion.

For purposes of measuring the number of revolutions completed it's the position of skating foot on takeoff.

Only in a fantasy world divorced from reality. Someone can do a Salchow with 1/4 turn pre-rotation. They can also do it with 3/4 turn pre-rotation. To only look at the very start of the jump is wrong.

 

[solani]

I can.

But then this is something I've been looking at a ton for 10 years now, since the days of Kimmie Meissner's pre-rotated toeloop technique and various other peculiarities that started popping up (or rather becoming more apparent) with CoP.

Anyway, if you're making the "realtime" argument (yeah, you won't see the very precise spot as well in realtime) then you also have to say the same about the landing point. So then it would make no sense to only look at landings in slow-motion.

For me it's easier to see when the landing is short in realtime. Sometimes I think maybe the judges should just rewatch everything in realtime only. Then maybe we all wouldn't be over analyzing this beautiful sport. It's only necessary because good flow, entrance or unusual positions are equally important as good height/distance. I still want to see them jump! Even Gracie's jumps aren't as big as they were, but her flow is a little better now. Well, I don't like how it is now. This judging system is only looking at the "ornaments" of a jump and not at the quality of a jump. And I prefer a big 2F over a tiny scratchy 3F. But the motto is (like in snowboarding): spin to win!

 

[Moxiejan]

Quote Originally Posted by Moxiejan: "For purposes of measuring the number of revolutions completed it's the position of skating foot on takeoff."

Only in a fantasy world divorced from reality. Someone can do a Salchow with 1/4 turn pre-rotation. They can also do it with 3/4 turn pre-rotation. To only look at the very start of the jump is wrong. in a fantasy world divorced from reality. Someone can do a Salchow with 1/4 turn pre-rotation. They can also do it with 3/4 turn pre-rotation. To only look at the very start of the jump is wrong.

If you're going to quote me, do it correctly. I said: "For purposes of measuring the number of revolutions completed (as well as correct edge) it's the position of skating foot on takeoff and then position of skating foot on landing."

You deliberately edited out my comment about landing foot and then criticized my comment as if it mentioned only takeoff foot. Dishonest.

 

[largeman]

Takeoff is measured by the position of the skating foot, not by the position of the free leg (in edge jumps) or the picking foot (in toepick-assisted jumps).

I can understand how this applies to toe jumps, and how based on this statement, a toeloop, lutz or flip with excessive rotation on the toe pick before leaving the ice would not get dinged (as long as the skating foot did not leave the ice facing forward).

However, when it comes to triple loop or triple salchow, the same rule is problematic and could not possibly be enforced. The best jumpers take off with their skating foot facing forward. It's just the mechanics of these two jumps.

 

[Ares]

She doesn't jump small (well, on the axel she does) but she's not exactly a "big" jumper either. The toeloop technique is flawed too and that simply can't be ignored. Her triple toe is 2.25 rotations in the air. It's right on the border of deserving an underrotation call, her normal "best" execution of that element. It's actually even not quite 2.25 rotations in the air if you look closely at her blade in slo-mo during the replay and want to be really picky (watch where the toepick leaves the ice) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf-ikEpLIYw&t=5m50s

I think that technical specialist focuses on the moment when full blade is on ice when it comes to the landing and not the moment when your blade / toe starts to touch the ice and that's the key of that confusion. It's within the rules and her body weight is still not quite on the ice so to me it counts as time in air so revolution is counted even if you already skims but it stops when your landing is done . Or is my understanding wrong, how do they evaluate it? The same could aplied to take-off but it's more about the direction of the jump that is counted by judges right now. It takes time before your whole body leaves the ice, in some skaters it is somewhat ''cheated'' . There are some skaters with more blatant pre-rotation like Satoko who on her 3-lutz twists her whole body take-off too before.

 

[Ares]

Well, if you don't spot the technique problems of Satako's jumps, then it would be rather easy to assign her a huge score (aka, the LP score the judges gave her). But those jumps are very problematic. As I noted in my scores, I also don't think her LP has good interpretation either. It's all this same type of gentle elegance, during the times she isn't doing convoluted tech elements and transitions which directly break that elegant kind of look, and while all of those very elegant movements and overall expression look good on their own, they don't have much to do with the textures of the music she skated to. The programs she had in 2014 were considerably more attuned to the music, also her LP in 2015.



Now we can get into more specifics, these should be great case studies since I disagree with all of them except Mirai's layback in the SP. Very strongly disagree in some cases. I've provided video links for all of these elements.



Evgenia Medvedeva - Long Program 3Salchow+3Toe - Again this isn't even fully deserving of +2 to me. Neither jump is huge, there's no difficult entrance, and the toeloop technique is not ideal - she draws around on the ice instead of going straight back and up after landing the first jump. How could this even possibly be considered for a +3?

Creative exit after toe-loop? Did you forget? I think she deserved +2 even if her position after salchow is not ideal.

 

[Ares]

Not sure why anyone would smile during a Bolero. The same with Scheherazade which is a very interesting tale about a girl telling stories to a king for a thousand days in order for him to spare her life. I'm sure it's possible to find a part of the story to throw a flirty look toward the king but it's hardly required.

Honestly....why do so many programs become plagued with the smiley faces. It's one thing when a program calls for it....but I cringe at the idea that anyone is supposed to or required to smile while performing.

There is a comment of some woman on youtube complaining that Anna does not smile during her Bolero. And that she's obliged to sell it like that .

 

[Moxiejan]

However, when it comes to triple loop or triple salchow, the same rule is problematic and could not possibly be enforced. The best jumpers take off with their skating foot facing forward. It's just the mechanics of these two jumps.

If the skating foot were truly facing forward on takeoff, that would be visible on the ice as a three-turn. I know from my skating days that we could actually look at the ice tracings to see if we had taken off correctly. (And even on TV, this often can be seen clearly; I look for it.) For the salchow, yes, there would be a "curved hook" at the moment of takeoff, but it was never more than a quarter turn. It was NOT correct for the skating foot to be forward. On the loop, it was a deepening of the curve; no hook.

Yes, in combo jumps with loop as the second jump, there can be an issue with the skating foot (simultaneously landing one jump and taking off for another) twisting forward into a cheat (see the video I posted of Lipinski). But a solo salchow or loop would NEVER be counted as correct with the skating foot forward on takeoff.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I think that technical specialist focuses on the moment when full blade is on ice when it comes to the landing.

They don't; at times they've actually been quite strict about looking at right when the toepick hits the ice. However, there's been much debate over the years about exactly where a jump should be considered landed and there is nothing in the ISU rules that precisely defines it. For the landing point I think it should be not exactly when the toepick touches the ice, but when enough of the weight is clearly into the ice (this usually before the full blade is on the ice, though).

I said: "For purposes of measuring the number of revolutions completed (as well as correct edge) it's the position of skating foot on takeoff and then position of skating foot on landing." You deliberately edited out my comment about landing foot and then criticized my comment as if it mentioned only takeoff foot. Dishonest.

LOL, obviously the landing foot is looked at. That is implied. How else is a jump supposed to land? Don't be silly and draw attention away from the issue at hand.

That issue being: looking at only the start of a takeoff and then the landing, ignoring everything inbetween, is an inaccurate way of measuring jump rotation.

Evgenia Medvedeva - Long Program 3Salchow+3Toe - Again this isn't even fully deserving of +2 to me. Neither jump is huge, there's no difficult entrance, and the toeloop technique is not ideal - she draws around on the ice instead of going straight back and up after landing the first jump. How could this even possibly be considered for a +3?

Creative exit after toe-loop? Did you forget? I think she deserved +2 even if her position after salchow is not ideal.

The "creative exit" on the end of that combination just covers up the relative lack of speed she has coming out. It's nice as a transition of the program but doesn't have anything to do with the jump itself for me. It would be technically more demanding to come out of the jump with more speed and hold the edge and hold free leg up. For me, a "creative exit" is something that happens immediately after the landing or something that happens after first showing that controlled extension on the landing.

For example, look at the end of this Triple Lutz - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAsK2B9cBeA&t=3m30s

 

[Moxiejan]

LOL, obviously the landing foot is looked at. That is implied. How else is a jump supposed to land? Don't be silly and draw attention away from the issue at hand.That issue being: looking at only the start of a takeoff and then the landing, ignoring everything inbetween, is an inaccurate way of measuring jump rotation.[/url]

Except that, LOL, you mentioned only the takeoff when you quoted me. Obviously, if a person takes off backwards, jumps in the air and lands backwards, you still have to observe the body to see how many rotations were ATTEMPTED IN THE AIR. (It could even be 0, if a skater hopped from one foot to another without any in-air rotation; I've seen them do this in warmups.)

But for purposes of ISU judging in a competition, a jump with, say, three in-air body rotations might get marked as UR or downgraded as a double depending on both takeoff and landing at the FEET. There is no measuring of shoulders or torso or head, as far as 1/4 short of rotation, 1/2 short of rotation, etc.

 

[Blades of Passion]

You seem really, really confused about what you're talking about. We know there is no measuring of shoulders/torso/head for determining jump rotation.

Yes, the FEET are entirely the point here. Looking at the feet throughout the entire takeoff, and then the landing foot, to determine rotation. This is in contrast to your idea of looking at the feet at the beginning of takeoff only (or ignoring the toepick foot, whichever you were trying to argue) and then looking at the landing.

 

[largeman]

If the skating foot were truly facing forward on takeoff, that would be visible on the ice as a three-turn. I know from my skating days that we could actually look at the ice tracings to see if we had taken off correctly. (And even on TV, this often can be seen clearly; I look for it.) For the salchow, yes, there would be a "curved hook" at the moment of takeoff, but it was never more than a quarter turn. It was NOT correct for the skating foot to be forward. On the loop, it was a deepening of the curve; no hook.

I suspect that you and I are not talking about the same moment of takeoff when we say "takeoff," if that makes sense? I am focused on the moment when the toe pick of the skating foot leaves the ice completely and goes into the air. If you look at this slow-motion triple loop demo video, at the moment his toe pick leaves the ice, the foot is already facing forward. Are you referring to the same moment when you say "takeoff," or are you referring to the motion that occurs slightly earlier?

 

[Moxiejan]

Aha! In that video, BOTH skaters are cheating! The girl's loop wasn't as bad as her salchow, but none of these edge jumps were done correctly.
The pre-jump twist at the foot was quite apparent.

 

[Moxiejan]

Yes, the FEET are entirely the point here. Looking at the feet throughout the entire takeoff, and then the landing foot, to determine rotation. This is in contrast to your idea of looking at the feet at the beginning of takeoff only (or ignoring the toepick foot, whichever you were trying to argue) and then looking at the landing.

Huh? The takeoff would indeed be the exact point at which the foot leaves the ice; before that, it's preparation for takeoff. In any edge jump, if the skater spins so long on the toepick that the skate (foot) is forward, the salchow attempt then becomes a waltz jump (or a double salchow becomes a single axel, and so forth). Conversely, if a skater attempting a single axel spins so long on the pick that the skate turns to the back, the jump becomes a single salchow. With loops, a single taken off too late looks a lot like the sloppy half-loops we've been seeing in triple-loop-triple combos.

Yes, competition judges need very good slo-mo to spot it.
In ice tracings, it is obvious if a cheat is happening; there is a very distinct pattern formed when there is a 3-turn right before the pick mark (incorrect) instead of a curved edge that ends in a pick mark (correct).

 

[Blades of Passion]

slow-motion triple loop demo video

Aha! In that video, BOTH skaters are cheating! The girl's loop wasn't as bad as her salchow, but none of these edge jumps were done correctly. The pre-jump twist at the foot was quite apparent.

Wrong. All jumps can pre-rotate 1/2 turn on the takeoff (whether it be on the skating foot for edge jumps or the toepick foot for toepick jumps). Loop and Salchow jumps especially need to in order to get the straightest takeoff. The problem comes when there is more than 1/2 pre-rotation, aka the toeloop technique we've been discussing in this thread.

There's just 1 guy in that video, though, not sure what girl you're referring to (the "Mia on Ice" video in the sidebar of that linked video?).

 

[Moxiejan]

Wrong. All jumps can pre-rotate 1/2 turn on the takeoff (whether it be on the skating foot for edge jumps or the toepick foot for toepick jumps). Loop and Salchow jumps especially need to in order to get the straightest takeoff. The problem comes when there is more than 1/2 pre-rotation, aka the toeloop technique we've been discussing in this thread.

Wrong. Page 23 of the ISU Technical Handbook states: "A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump. The TP may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences)."

So, don't take my word for it that forward takeoffs are incorrect (except for axels); the ISU has decreed it.
And, no, loops and salchows don't need a straight takeoff. They need a slightly curved takeoff. Jumps are done from edges. They are not done from flats.

just 1 guy in that video, though, not sure what girl you're referring to (the "Mia on Ice" video in the sidebar of that linked video?).

Your video link shows a guy doing jumps, immediately followed by a girl doing jumps. I didn't click on anything else.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Dear lord!!!

So no one really commented on the video I made regarding PreRotated toe loops. Strange because the reason I made the video was a direct result of a discussion in this thread but maybe I was mistaken or something.

FWIW: The ISU judges didn't downgrade any of these combo's which all have a bit of forward takeoff and some even more than forward.

https://youtu.be/_z2Dk46VCjA

Here is how I rank the skaters based on PreRotation from most to least.

Zhenia....just under halfway.
Anna...just about halfway.
Ashley...over halfway
Satoko....over 270

Thoughts?

 

[Moxiejan]

Sam-Skwantch: Thanks for the video!

I actually thought Zhenia's was worse than Ashley's, but Satoko's was ridiculous.

With Ashley in the LP (your video shows SP), I kept looking at her opening combo & couldn't figure out the underrotation deduction, but maybe it was for the toe loop takeoff and not the landing?