2016-17 State of Japanese Ladies Skating

[largeman]

I actually kind of wondered if she maybe two footed the landed on the 3a but no one really ever brought it up.
https://youtu.be/SaPw62cURKQ?t=39s

Yup, it was two-footed. I believe the judges caught that right away - she only got 7.83 points (GOE of -.67) for the 3A (as seen in the TES box on screen) before the tech panel reviewed it and called it UR.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Yup, it was two-footed. I believe the judges caught that right away - she only got 7.83 points (GOE of -.67) for the 3A (as seen in the TES box on screen) before the tech panel reviewed it and called it UR.

I'm not sure I understand the scoring here. Is a two footed landing scored as a UR then?

On a positive note.... Even in a video showing the tech panel making negative calls she still looks great. In fact I think it would be impossible to make a video of Mao that she didn't

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

It had a touchdown with the second foot, but I don't think that deserves to lose 30% of the BV and negative GOE.

Totally agree!l It's almost like when the TP makes a downgrade they need to show the judges the replay and ask them to re-score the jump and offer them either the recommended downgrade with free GOE or let the judges give it full credit and then apply required negative GOE at their discretion then just average the results. Hooray for more complicated but a wider scoring range. To me...a narrative with more checks and balances makes the most sense.

 

[largeman]

I'm not sure I understand the scoring here. Is a two footed landing scored as a UR then?

No I just meant some judges must've seen the two-footed landing and hence the negative GOE at first sight (8.50 - 0.67 = 7.83). She still had full BV for the 3A. It was only after the program that the 3A was reviewed and called UR (BV went from 8.50 to 5.90).

 

[jenaj]

I disagree. Many times it is a great performance, whether it medals or not, that sticks in people's minds.

Agree. Mao's Sochi LP is of course a recent example. Michelle's long program at 1995 Worlds is another. Also, Mirai's LP at Vancouver. If you go way back, Janet Lynn had several memorable free skates at Worlds with no medals --1971 probably being the most memorable, when the crowd chanted her name during the medal ceremony-- because she was held back by the school figures.

 

[nolangoh]

Mao loses points because she URs jumps. She plans 3F+3lo, but the 3lo often doesn't happen, or if she does try it, the 3lo gets UR or DG. Sometimes even the 2lo in her combos gets UR. Her 3A can be an asset, but it can also be a big minus if she URs it then falls. Mao sometimes inexplicably doubles jumps that clearly were meant to be triples.

Her Worlds 2016 FS shows the UR problem:

3a<, 3f+3lo<, 2ze, 2a+3t<, 3s, 3f+2lo+2lo, 3lo

Three URs and a doubled jump. Lots of points lost.

That's what the tech panel thought, which, through history, is mostly incorrect. The tech panel even called her 3A in her SP at 2013 GPF and the one in LP at 2014 Worlds UR, which were ABSOLUTELY trash. Just because the tech caller said so does not make it the truth.

 

[moriel]

That's what the tech panel thought, which, through history, is mostly incorrect. The tech panel even called her 3A in her SP at 2013 GPF and the one in LP at 2014 Worlds UR, which were ABSOLUTELY trash. Just because the tech caller said so does not make it the truth.

Still, she URs a lot, even excluding the unfair calls.
And at this point, her rep is damaging her scores, as the tech pannel will of course look for URs.

 

[YesWay]

My pet conspiracy theory is that most tech panels don't look at Mao's jumps and ask themselves each time: "is this jump rotated or under-rotated?"

Instead, they ask themselves, "Can we call UR on this jump?"... or "Can we get away with calling it UR?"

It's really telling when one of Mao's 3A's is called UR, and someone like Shin Amano says he wouldn't have given that call...!

Not that I really care about scores much any more, or what the tech panels say.
More important to enjoy the skating, for as long as it lasts.
No point getting bitter, it will just spoil the memories...

 

[Bartek]

My pet conspiracy theory is that most tech panels don't look at Mao's jumps and ask themselves each time: "is this jump rotated or under-rotated?"

Instead, they ask themselves, "Can we call UR on this jump?"... or "Can we get away with calling it UR?"

It's really telling when one of Mao's 3A's is called UR, and someone like Shin Amano says he wouldn't have given that call...!

Not that I really care about scores much any more, or what the tech panels say.
More important to enjoy the skating, for as long as it lasts.
No point getting bitter, it will just spoil the memories...

Which call was it that Shin Amano said he wouldn't have made?

 

[YesWay]

Which call was it that Shin Amano said he wouldn't have made it?

If I remember correctly (!)... 2013 GPF... where I think Amano was actually on the tech panel, but the call was given by his colleagues. Or so the story goes...

 

[gotoschool]

Which call was it that Shin Amano said he wouldn't have made?

2013 SP triple axel at the Grand Prix Final in Japan. It's really kind of a confession of unjust scoring, especially since he was head of the tech crew I believe. It suggests to me that he may be "strongly persuaded" to go along with calls he doesn't agree with. I think there was also a Japanese head of the tech crew used in Worlds 2014 and they also made really harsh calls on Mao even on jumps with high GOE from the judges. Perhaps, they were "strongly persuaded" to go along with the calls as well. I think the Japanese tech judge could be used as "cover" so that the overly harsh and bogus calls look more legitimate, but Kanako and Akiko were also scored harshly in tech, especially in the LP. This would "normalize" the bogus ur calls made on Mao's backend 3F / 3L and her backend 2A / 3T in Mao's Sochi LP. These jumps look obviously rotated in slow motion to me, and in her other combos Mao takes off up to 90 degrees earlier than many of the skaters who pre-rotate excessively. I think it is absurd that this isn't even considered when counting rotation just as Mao's great height in her 2A in the front of her 3T is ignored. Consideration of rotation on jumps is ridiculous if the take-off point is not considered. I think it should be 2 1/4 rotations for a triple jump anywhere along the circumference of the circle of rotation no matter where it is. But besides this instead of huge ur or edge deductions or no deductions at all, I think a more holistic evaluation of jumps is more consistent with what people actually see in totality in real time based on excellent flow in and out from great skating skills, nice height and distance, erect posture, symmetrical air position, graceful and fluid transitions and intricate expression, qualities which Mao excels in with her good and great performances. This is especially true since it appears to me that hooks on the ice are evaluated by a double and sometimes even inverted standards, so that those with well over 180 degrees pre-rotation are given a free pass. Even the rotational landing position is looked at differently based on who is skating.

 

[MaxSwagg]

There needs to be a separate panel that evaluates the tech along with the technical panel (in effect, evaluates the technical panel). Like in gymnastics. Tech panel has too much unchecked power. Or better yet, just let the judges give UR calls based on their judgement and then use the average of those calls and non-calls to reduce the BV of the jump, and allow them to give un-restricted GOE based on how it looks in "real time."

 

[Ultra]

Or better yet, just let the judges give UR calls based on their judgement and then use the average of those calls

The current system is designed to be rigged. What you are suggesting is not in the interests of the powers-that-be.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

There needs to be a separate panel that evaluates the tech along with the technical panel (in effect, evaluates the technical panel). Like in gymnastics. Tech panel has too much unchecked power. Or better yet, just let the judges give UR calls based on their judgement and then use the average of those calls and non-calls to reduce the BV of the jump, and allow them to give un-restricted GOE based on how it looks in "real time."

I like the idea of awarding GOE in real time but then any jump flagged by the tech panel gets reviews for UR at the judge's discretion. You'd then just factor the BV based on the average of the judge's calls regarding the UR then give them that score.

The problem is we'll still need fair judges because if a skater is known to UR a judge could be inclined to boost the GOE to counter the anticipated UR calls. That's the problem with a judged sport.

 

[bosskil]

URs are imperfections, thus Marin Honda doesn't do them.

 

[gsyzf]

Mao loses points because she URs jumps. She plans 3F+3lo, but the 3lo often doesn't happen, or if she does try it, the 3lo gets UR or DG. Sometimes even the 2lo in her combos gets UR. Her 3A can be an asset, but it can also be a big minus if she URs it then falls. Mao sometimes inexplicably doubles jumps that clearly were meant to be triples.

Her Worlds 2016 FS shows the UR problem:

3a<, 3f+3lo<, 2ze, 2a+3t<, 3s, 3f+2lo+2lo, 3lo

Three URs and a doubled jump. Lots of points lost.

She usually only URs the 3-3s and 3As (like in Worlds 2016 FS). 3A is on and off for any lady who attempts 3A. She sometimes URs solo triples , but so do other ladies. So it’s the 3-3s that’s the main issue because she almost always URs her 3-3s.

We have to face the fact that she's been doing the 2A-3T since 2010-11 (and back in 2006-07 too). Her success rate on getting the 3T ratified is not high. This past season she had only two successful attempts - Japan Open and NHK (two-footed, but got positive GOE nonetheless). in the 2013-14 season, also just two. Her toe loop technique is good - much cleaner takeoff than most - but she gets dinged on the landing left and right. If this is the case with 2A, I don't know how realistically we can expect her to pull off a consistent 3F+3T? It may not be that she's fixated on 3F+Lo. We did see a glimpse of her practicing 3F+3T this time last year. Maybe 3F+3T just doesn't work for her.

She is trying to do 3A, fix the 3lz, and train 3-3s at the same time. That’s doing a lot, and perhaps too much given her ability and physical strength. The other ladies only need to fix the wrong edge of either 3f or 3lz, and train 3-3s. They don’t need to practice 3A. If Mao wants to keep 3A, perhaps she can consider dropping either 3lz or 3-3s. (You have to give up something in order to gain something.) 3-3s is more valuable and can give her more points in both sp and lp (e.g. do 3t3t in sp and two 2a3t in the LP). If she only focuses on fewer elements, e.g. only train 2a-3t and 3t3t and forget about 3lz, it’s more likely for her to rotate the 2nd 3t. Akiko is older than Mao and can rotate 2a3t and 3t3t. I really don’t think Mao is lacking the ability to do it. I think she is trying to fix too many things at the same time.

Media coverage is a good measure of public’s interest. Most media enterprises are for-profit businesses. They care the most about ratings, readerships and clicks. They do overhype and sensationalize things, but they don’t cover events or individuals that the general public has little interest in. If you look at media coverage of figure skating competitions, it’s mostly about the medalists (especially gold medalists), world record, making history, drama like whack, collision and scandals, very little or no coverage about non-medal winning performances. The media does cover the performances of local skaters or star skaters, but the coverage of the local skater/star skater losing or off podium is significantly less than when the local skater/star skater wins.

 

[Ultra]

Media coverage is a good measure of public’s interest.

No.
The Dinosaur Media is irrelevant - even they practically admit this.

Associated Press, Feb 2014:

"You don't have to win gold medals to drive social media conversation. Going into Sunday, Twitter said that the Winter Olympic athlete mentioned most in tweets throughout the Sochi games was Japan's Mao Asada, who finished sixth in women's figure skating."

The third most popular skater on Twitter in Sochi was Akiko Suzuki, ranked 6th among all athletes.

Mao was also the most popular on Twitter during the 2016 Worlds LP:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...eptfnrIRO4k_ChtNv8dinW6JZrPGSO0g/s10000/_.png

If you look at media coverage of figure skating competitions, it’s mostly about the medalists

NBC's Most Memorable Moments of the Sochi Games featured only ONE female skater:

"Though Japanese figure skater Mao Asada never made it to the medal podium in women's figure skating, the 23-year-old's stunning and redemptive free skate will go down as one of the most memorable performances of the Sochi Games."

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/spor...he-Sochi-Games-Winter-Olympics-246644651.html

 

[ioanna]

Not sure if these have been posted here. Full run throughs of the ladies' new programs from the training camp with Stephane Lambiel.

http://dai.ly/x4omxqb

11:25 Wakaba Higuchi SP (full)
16:18 Satoko Miyahara FS (full)
20:42 Rika Hongo FS (part of it)
21:42 Kanako Murakami FS (part of it)
22:36 Marin Honda FS (part of it)
23:19 Yura Matsuda FS (part of it)
23:47 Yuka Nagai FS (part of it)
24:20 Mai Mihara FS (part of it)

http://dai.ly/x4on4wd

2:21 Yuna Shiraiwa SP (most of it)
6:57 Rika Kihira 3A-3T + FS (most of it)

 

[ioanna]

Rika Hongo's FS with costume and everything
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXzxkiDEsjg&feature=share

 

[ioanna]

Another exhibition program by Satoko, choreographed by Jeff Buttle. Once again different from what she's done so far. She's expanding her range of expression and it's working, imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6SdoYbH4w8