2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating
- Thread starter Mrs. P
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
I like Adam's SP. It's fun, but nothing special yet. I also see the potential in his LP, but we'll see. I think as the program grows it could turn into something wonderful, much his LP last year (which I also felt didn't completely blossom until Worlds). I get the feeling there is a story he's telling...it's just not all there yet.
ETA: Just watched Jason's performances at US International too. Is it just me or does he look way more grown up than last season? His overall presence on the ice is more mature and masculine, and his skating skills have improved by leaps and bounds. He's more of the complete package than ever....except for the quad (which I don't want to harp on). Love the SP more than Gatsby or Juke, glad they went with a new style. I also like the bun in the LP. It seems more polished. Overall, I'd give him the edge in PCS over Adam, based on skating skills alone - I think by the second half of the GP series, we'll a small gap in PCS between them, giving Jason an advantage at Nationals.
Such a shame the US only has two spots this year for Worlds. No way it'll be both Jason and Adam. It'll be one "jumper," Max or Nathan, and one "artist," Jason or Adam. Here's hoping one of our guys makes it to GPF; I don't care who.
ETA: Just watched Jason's performances at US International too. Is it just me or does he look way more grown up than last season? His overall presence on the ice is more mature and masculine, and his skating skills have improved by leaps and bounds. He's more of the complete package than ever....except for the quad (which I don't want to harp on). Love the SP more than Gatsby or Juke, glad they went with a new style. I also like the bun in the LP. It seems more polished. Overall, I'd give him the edge in PCS over Adam, based on skating skills alone - I think by the second half of the GP series, we'll a small gap in PCS between them, giving Jason an advantage at Nationals.
Such a shame the US only has two spots this year for Worlds. No way it'll be both Jason and Adam. It'll be one "jumper," Max or Nathan, and one "artist," Jason or Adam. Here's hoping one of our guys makes it to GPF; I don't care who.
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- Joined
- Feb 24, 2012
I liked Jason's long program but I was going to say his edges aren't as deep as clean as before and certainly not compared to Hanyu or Fernandesand far worse than Chan. However, he has great stamina back loading his program. I like low man bun too -did he cut his hair - it looks under cut now or maybe that was for the man bun.
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
Yes, I noticed this too in some of his pictures over the summer. He's definitely acquiring that more adult look and his body is filling out. And he has developed a lot more power in his skating too.
Since now I will never see my Golden Trio go together to Worlds as they should have done, I will hope for a Worlds team of Max and Jason, the best two skaters they can send.
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2014
Are you saying you think he has comparable skating skills to Hanyu and Chan??
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2012
Not Chan, but I do think his edges are every bit as good as Hanyu's. It's probably heresy but I really don't enjoy watching Hanyu skate. He's all jumps. I don't see the grace that apparently everyone else does. Throw tomatoes if you must, but I think if Jason had the quads y'all would be talking differently. For the record, I don't think anyone has the beautiful edges that Patrick has! And I think Patrick's skating skills are superior to Hanyu's. I think Javi comes close!
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2014
I'm not sure, but are skating skills supposed to be subjective? I've always thought that it was one of the components (together with transitions), that are more objective and thus can be compared more readily.
In any case, this reminded me of a discussion that took place earlier this year where someone made a video of the top 10 2016 Worlds Men's SP with no jumps or spins, in the order of overall ranking by the judges, so that you can focus only on the transitions and aspects of the skating skills like speed and depth of edges.
Adam Rippon's starts here: https://youtu.be/yhGYrCe-fS4?t=5m31s
and Yuzuru Hanyu's starts here: https://youtu.be/yhGYrCe-fS4?t=16m25s
And also for comparison:
Patrick Chans's: https://youtu.be/yhGYrCe-fS4?t=12m42s
Javier Fernandez's: https://youtu.be/yhGYrCe-fS4?t=14m30s
Max Aaron's: https://youtu.be/yhGYrCe-fS4?t=3m38s (since this is the US Men's thread)
Well if you say that Fernandez has better skating skills than Hanyu, than it just sums up everything for me. Hanyu all about jumps ? Really ? The one who had the most transitions and one foot skating from all men last season ? Ok.
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2012
Hey, it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I'm not going to get into an argument about who is the best. I was merely stating who I liked the best. For the record, I've never been a big fan of Hanyu regardless of whether he had the most transitions and one foot skating of all the men. That doesn't necessarily equate to the best skating skills to me. I like smoothness and seamless transitions and I like a well-balanced program that doesn't just focus on how many quads you can throw. I just happen to find Javi, Patrick and Jason more pleasing to me.
Y'all can like who you want!
Y'all can like who you want!
Depends how you define "subjective."
Unlike something like Interpretation, Skating Skills is not really about personal taste.
Some of the criteria could be objectively measured if we had the right equipment (which we don't, not in a form that could be easily used in the context of a skating competition in real time):
speed (average speed, top speed, speed going into and out of jumps, speed through step sequences including losing speed with difficult turns and steps and regaining it with easier ones vs. maintaining even flow throughout)
efficiency of acceleration and deceleration
depth of edge/size of curves
amount of time spent on two feet moving or standing still
amount of time spent turning and curving in clockwise vs. counterclockwise and forward vs. backward, and the number of each kind of turn on each foot and direction
Since we don't have technology to measure all those things while the program is in process, without interfering with the skating, we have to rely on measuring them by human perception of each judge.
Similarly, qualities such as the sense of balance and alignment over the edges are most easily measured by the human eye, and the sounds of the blades by the human ear.
So the facts of these criteria are largely quantifiable, but in practice they're being evaluated as qualitative variables.
For transitions, it would be possible to quantify the Variety and Difficulty of transitional moves, but the Quality criterion by definition is going to be purely qualitative.
There is general agreement as what constitutes better or worse on each of these criteria, but with the reliance on human perception there will be differences in how different individuals quantify how much better any quality is from one skater to the next, or compared to a different criterion of the same component.
And then you have differences of opinion about what is most important. Maybe one judge puts the most emphasis on absolute speed and a different judge puts more importance on edge quality or maintaining flow. Even if they agree on how skaters compared to each other on each criterion separately, they might come up with different final scores for the Skating Skills component as a whole.
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2014
Hey, it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I'm not going to get into an argument about who is the best. I was merely stating who I liked the best. For the record, I've never been a big fan of Hanyu regardless of whether he had the most transitions and one foot skating of all the men. That doesn't necessarily equate to the best skating skills to me. I like smoothness and seamless transitions and I like a well-balanced program that doesn't just focus on how many quads you can throw. I just happen to find Javi, Patrick and Jason more pleasing to me.
Y'all can like who you want!
I think the point I was trying to make was that it doesn't matter who you like the best or who I like the best when we're discussing skating skills. I think gkelly put it better than I did when she said that it is not a matter of personal taste. Perhaps the different factors of skating skills can be emphasized differently to give an overall different score for skating skills, but I just feel like maybe you are using the wrong word when you are discussing skating skills. Maybe I'm too pedantic, but perhaps you mean skating style?
For example, this is the definition of how skating skills are judged in the ISU judging system:
http://static.isu.org/media/1003/20...ce-and-technical-rules-sandp-and-id_final.pdf
Skating Skills
Defined by overall cleanness and sureness, edge control and flow over the ice
surface demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns
etc.), the clarity of technique and the use of effortless power to accelerate and
vary speed.
In evaluating the Skating Skills, the following must be considered:
• Use of deep edges, steps and turns;
• Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement;
• Flow and glide;
• Varied use of power, speed and acceleration;
• Use of multi directional skating;
• Use of one foot skating.
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- Joined
- Feb 25, 2014
This is just one of the most ridiculous things I've read. Out of line and, frankly, disrespectful. It's clear the ranking of skating skills is:
1. Chan/Hanyu
---
2. Fernandez
(3.) Jason et al.
-- many gaps --
Adam
Skating skills don't change based on your opinion of a skater...unless you're biased and your overall opinion of Hanyu is clearly clouding your judgement. Chan has deeper edges, but Hanyu generates speed more effortlessly than anyone. Jason has good depth of edge but I would not call him the fastest or certainly the most effortless. "Fast," "effortless," and "deep edges" are certainly not terms I would use to describe Adam Rippon either. He's kind of like Ashley; he has this ability to bamboozle people into thinking these things.
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- Joined
- Jun 11, 2012
Awwww - it's you again. Pointing fingers if someone doesn't agree with you. I'm just going to quietly laugh and go about my day.
Carry on.
p.s. This is the second time I've been called disrespectful in the past week by someone's uber fan because I disgreed with their adoration!!! and I'm getting a little tired of it. To disagree with someone in a polite and courteous manner does NOT constitute disrespect!!!
Carry on.
p.s. This is the second time I've been called disrespectful in the past week by someone's uber fan because I disgreed with their adoration!!! and I'm getting a little tired of it. To disagree with someone in a polite and courteous manner does NOT constitute disrespect!!!
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- Joined
- Feb 25, 2014
When you try to defame, get used to it or else you're going to get tired fast. OR stop trying to twist things. Sneaky. Lol
:roll5:
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- Joined
- Jun 11, 2012
Excuse me - ALL I STATED was that I didn't care for one skater as much as I did others. That was purely my very own opinion. There was no disrespect, there was no defamation, there was no sneakiness and there was no twisting of things. Maybe you should start reading your own posts before you challenge someone elses. Same old story - different day! i'm not the least bit tired but I am really bored.
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
Skating skill is not that subjective if you do care to do some research. The thing is your attitude is just the same as people who claim "this skater has no transitions" without knowing what a 3 turn is.
Anyway, I am okay with people who don't care to look at what skaters actually do on their feet, and only comment it based on their personal feelings.
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2014
My attitude is that Jason Brown has great skating skills. And my attitude is that Yuzu is not the ultimate god of men's skating. Nor is Patrick nor is Javi. Nor is Jason.
*That* is reserved for Toller.
And 40 years from now, maybe one of these guys will be, who knows? Not now.
And that is NOT disrespectful, defamatory, lacking knowledge, failing to do research, being blind, being deaf, hating IJS, hating quads, loving quads, or failing to cross the street on a green light. It is offering my opinion, just like every else on this board does ... offer opinions. I assume everyone here thinks their own opinion is obviously the bestest, most well argued, most convincing and wonderful opinion ever offered on the internet, or else why offer it?
So what do we think of the US men? Can't wait to see Grant and Tim debut at Challengers!
*That* is reserved for Toller.
And 40 years from now, maybe one of these guys will be, who knows? Not now.And that is NOT disrespectful, defamatory, lacking knowledge, failing to do research, being blind, being deaf, hating IJS, hating quads, loving quads, or failing to cross the street on a green light. It is offering my opinion, just like every else on this board does ... offer opinions. I assume everyone here thinks their own opinion is obviously the bestest, most well argued, most convincing and wonderful opinion ever offered on the internet, or else why offer it?
So what do we think of the US men? Can't wait to see Grant and Tim debut at Challengers!
Anyway, comparing skating skills of the World's men might be a good thread topic.. 
The issue of judging SS has been discussed in a few past threads
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...-skating-skills-Who-should-get-high-SS-scores
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?58641-Skaters-who-have-improved-Skating-Skills
***
Anyway in U.S. Men's news:
* Timothy Dolensky and Grant Hochstein are on tap for Nebelhorn Trophy. This will be Timothy's season debut while we'll see if Grant can improve from his score in Lombardia. Timothy is also taking over U.S. Figure Skating's instagram.
* We will also see Alexei Krasnozhon and William Hubbert at JGP Ljubljana Cup. We will see if Krasnozhon can grab another medal and get a JGPF berth. This is also the international debut of Hubbert, 18, who skated pairs with his sister Jojo and placed 4th in Intermediate pairs at 2014 U.S. Nationals. and bronze at 2015 U.S. Nationals. He was 4th in Novice men last year.
* Jason Brown has returned to Toyota Sports Center to train. Not sure for how long. Also Evan Lysacek is there too.
* Max Aaron will apparently change part of his Lion King program.
The issue of judging SS has been discussed in a few past threads
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...-skating-skills-Who-should-get-high-SS-scores
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?58641-Skaters-who-have-improved-Skating-Skills
***
Anyway in U.S. Men's news:
* Timothy Dolensky and Grant Hochstein are on tap for Nebelhorn Trophy. This will be Timothy's season debut while we'll see if Grant can improve from his score in Lombardia. Timothy is also taking over U.S. Figure Skating's instagram.
* We will also see Alexei Krasnozhon and William Hubbert at JGP Ljubljana Cup. We will see if Krasnozhon can grab another medal and get a JGPF berth. This is also the international debut of Hubbert, 18, who skated pairs with his sister Jojo and placed 4th in Intermediate pairs at 2014 U.S. Nationals. and bronze at 2015 U.S. Nationals. He was 4th in Novice men last year.
* Jason Brown has returned to Toyota Sports Center to train. Not sure for how long. Also Evan Lysacek is there too.
* Max Aaron will apparently change part of his Lion King program.
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- Joined
- Dec 25, 2012
One of my sisters is a Jason Brown fan but she had only seen his programs from 2015 onward. So I told her "You HAVE to see the Riverdance program" we dug it up on youtube and I was telling her how it was the best and had gone viral. We watched it and we were both like "hmmmm...it's really good, the crowd loves it, but he's going so slow compared to now!" In the area of SS Jason's made some very big strides within the last 2 seasons.
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