Unfair Judging

[topaz emerald]

Your problem

sorry, just expressing an opinion, not my problem.

 

[Snow63]

in my opinion, so far, the best russian new girl they got is Samodurova, who I think the federation thought she could compete with the top Japanese girls in Yokohama, that's why they sent her there, but even her best was not good enough to contend with the the top three that night (so that says a lot about the new crop of russian girls, just average, and yes, before anyone barks at me, it's just my lowly opinion). And I'm not even saying the Japanese girls are that good, just a little better than the russians at the moment. Again, just my lowly opinion from a subjective skating fan...

Edit: You know what, nevermind.

 

[topaz emerald]

I think this thread topic is an earnest question. I, for one, have often raised eyebrows at scores. While I do not portend to be able to do a judges' job, I really do want to understand why I'm often surprised at scores and whether I'm justified to feel that way.

However, I take your point that having a judge, or someone in the know, will help this discussion much more than a bunch of blind leading the blind. I really hope this forum isn't just the latter case.

but we are not blind. The new judging system/code of points is easily manipulated. There have been scandals like the one in salt lake city in 2002 between the canadian pairs and russian pairs. And recently with the russian girl and Yuna Kim, who, skated two perfect programs, but still lost. It's so easy for them to ask us to prove to them with protocols, but they can't admit politics is definitely involved.

 

[topaz emerald]

Thank you for your advice. I am new to this forum and i dont know that there is so much panic aout the judging so i will mention some more details . Your descriptions is very good. However , i cannot pose those videos which begins from the middle for example , because i dont know how :sarcasm:So , as for the artistry of the Nugumanovas programm , there were 3 changes in the music . Or 4. I am not sure. She was the same among all those parts. I think there was not that match emotion and not a change in her skate through those changes. The place of the step sequences for me is totally wrong. In her step sequences we have 2 pieces , one more slow one more dynamic. I dont like that because although it changes she doesnt do something different to encarcerate that dynamic one . Only one element that in the video it is not well timed ( the streaming was not good so i am not 100 % sure for that ). At the start there was again this slow and sentional music which was then folowed by more dynamic. Her transitions from one jump to another didnt show that move from the slow to dynamic. And as the structure of the programm , i think that the step sequences would be better placed in the middle rather than in the last part , because , for me , that makes the programm a little boring and more strategic rather tahn artisttic. Her spins were so good but the could have been placed in different sections of the music in order to show this slow or dramatic tone of the song , as you said for Yuna. Thats my opinioni for the artistry. I hope i managed to explain it well in English . For that reason , PCS score seems to me really high.Because i have seen better interpretatioins of R AND J .

you know forget even about the Pcs, how about the bad program of Polina Tsurskaya? doubling an axel, under-rotating some jumps, shaky landing, and doubling her combo...yet she still won the competition.....pray tell me, how is that program superior to for example Polina Edmunds' long program in sochi where she only fell on a triple flip???....other than that, she did two perfect programs, yet ended up in 9th place or 7th???....I forget. In Saransk, Tsurskaya makes several mistakes but still wins. Please, her short was not that good where she deserved so many points ahead of other girls....Both girls have the same build, yet Polina gets crucified on socalled under-rotatations and have been given this reputation for it, which isn't deserved AT ALL. I can't see how Tsurskaya is so much better than Edmunds, but I bet you people that once she turns senior, Tsurkaya is gonna surpass Edmunds in scores, if she hasn't already as juniors can score as high as seniors.

But then again, there is politics involved in domestic competitions too. This is a political sport and it's going to stay that way. They can change the code of points/judging system however they like, the politics will stay.

 

[moriel]

you know forget even about the Pcs, how about the bad program of Polina Tsurskaya? doubling an axel, under-rotating some jumps, shaky landing, and doubling her combo...yet she still won the competition.....pray tell me, how is that program superior to for example Polina Edmunds' long program in sochi where she only fell on a triple flip???....other than that, she did two perfect programs, yet ended up in 9th place or 7th???....I forget. In Saransk, Tsurskaya makes several mistakes but still wins. Please, her short was not that good where she deserved so many points ahead of other girls....Both girls have the same build, yet Polina gets crucified on socalled under-rotatations and have been given this reputation for it, which isn't deserved AT ALL. I can't see how Tsurskaya is so much better than Edmunds, but I bet you people that once she turns senior, Tsurkaya is gonna surpass Edmunds in scores, if she hasn't already as juniors can score as high as seniors.

But then again, there is politics involved in domestic competitions too. This is a political sport and it's going to stay that way.

Or maybe no politics.
1. the ordinal results depend of other participants. Two skaters may have an identical quality skate, and one win gold at event A, while another is #10 at event B. Why? Ofc, its politics and russian fed dirty trick, and not different level of competition at olympics and at a junior grand prix event. I guess russian fed messed it up it to have more top level competitors at Sochi to get Polina Edmunds buring down the ranks, and made sure only a few top ladies participate in Saransk
:dev2:

2. I disagree. Polina Edmunds has a bunch of technical issues that Polina Tsurskaya doesnt have. Chronical edge issues != one bad skate after staying out of ice for months because of injury. The build does not make the jumps automatically equally good or bad.
Also, build - Edmunds doesn´t knows what to do with her limbs, while Tsurskaya looks fine and does not resemble a windmill.
Last but not least, Edmunds lacks star quality that Tsurskaya has ^^

Anyways, you just gave us a lovely example of unfair judging based on some sort of prejudice ^^

 

[moriel]

but we are not blind. The new judging system/code of points is easily manipulated. There have been scandals like the one in salt lake city in 2002 between the canadian pairs and russian pairs. And recently with the russian girl and Yuna Kim, who, skated two perfect programs, but still lost. It's so easy for them to ask us to prove to them with protocols, but they can't admit politics is definitely involved.

And hmmm, skating clean does not make a program score high.
For example, one may skate a clean program with doubles only ^^


Just saying.

Meh so much biased and unfair judging from you, mate.

 

[topaz emerald]

When the ISU host was reviewing Nugumanova's FS, he kept referring to her jumps as underrotated, one after another. Yet she got just ONE ur. In the SP, she got URs on two out of three jumps.

I was shocked when she got the highest FS score of all, as even to my eyes, many of her jumps were underrotated. She was behind Shiraiwa in the SP, so clearly, her score was "engineered" to ensure she got on the podium.

This event should have been thrilling, but it was as blah as leftover, lukewarm soup.

Ted Barton, I think that's his name, he called out Tsurkaya's messed up jumps and performance as well.

 

[topaz emerald]

Mr. chuckm, as I remember you wasn't shocked when Samodurova was robbed of bronze medal in Yokohama... Now, this is maybe because american was beaten not only by korean (what becomes obvious in this season) but also by german junior ?

oh please....if you are talking about Gabbrielle Noullet, we all knew she could only do her best in Yokohama, we certainly didn't expect her to make the podium, just that she tried her best. Samodurova...I would have given her the third spot but her long program flat. It was a tossup between her and the third Japanese girl that took third. Judging was FAIR in Yokohama.

 

[topaz emerald]

Chuckm wasn't shocked that a Russian was beaten by three Japanese because an American was beaten by a Korean and German?

Can somebody explain me the logic of this I don't get it.

thank you Moria Polonius...... I love your name.

 

[hugo]

in my opinion, so far, the best russian new girl they got is Samodurova, who I think the federation thought she could compete with the top Japanese girls in Yokohama, that's why they sent her there, but even her best was not good enough to contend with the the top three that night (so that says a lot about the new crop of russian girls, just average, and yes, before anyone barks at me, it's just my lowly opinion). And I'm not even saying the Japanese girls are that good, just a little better than the russians at the moment. Again, just my lowly opinion from a subjective skating fan...

man, your opinions are so extremlely "subjective" that are even not worth of considering (as in FS judging, where "max" and "min" marks are rejected).

 

[topaz emerald]

Sorry, but NO. I look at the skaters and how they skate, and I look at the scores and see how they match to the skating. The competition in Japan was very tough, and the top 6 skaters were all very good---but some were better than others, and the best three were on the podium.

I analyzed the judges' marks and concluded that most of the judges agreed on which 3 those were.
One interesting thing: the Russian judge very obviously wanted Fedichkina on the podium, and gave her the highest PCS. But the Russian Judge's second highest PCS did not go to Samodurova, but to Sakamoto. The scores for the other Japanese skaters were much lower than anyone else gave. It is likely that the Russian judges' scores were tossed for being the highest (Fedichkina) and lowest (two of the Japanese skaters).

The judges were split on Samodurova vs. Yamashita, and the decision could have gone either way. It is possible that the Russian judge's low marks being tossed helped Yamashita.

they are always trying to attack our nationalities.....as if we don't criticize our own american skaters enough already...

 

[topaz emerald]

And hmmm, skating clean does not make a program score high.
For example, one may skate a clean program with doubles only ^^


Just saying.

Meh so much biased and unfair judging from you, mate.

then figure skating is not a sport, just call in porn on ice. Sorry, couldn't help myself...it's what my husband always tells me, lol

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Sounds like your husband might blush watching the Golden Girls

 

[Kittysk8s]

To become an ISU judge, a candidate has to be nominated by their federation to attend seminars and take written and practical exams.
They have to be "eligible persons," although the restrictions that make someone "professional" or or "ineligible" are a lot less strict than 30+ years ago. And they have to be at least 24 but not yet 50 years old to get the first appointment.

They have to have judged national competitions in their home countries; if I understand the rulebook correctly there are trial judging opportunities for potential international judges who didn't come up through a robust national program at home.

There are two levels of appointments: International Judge and ISU Judge. Judges must have ISU appointments to judge at Olympics, ISU events (does that mean the four ISU championships?), and the Olympic qualifying competition. International Judges could judge any other international events.

Different federations will have different criteria for deciding who to support for international appointments, and international assignments once they have the appointments. It will vary greatly depending on how big the federation is and how long it's been around, whether there are plenty of former competitors in competition with each other for those opportunities, or whether a brand new federation will have to fined anyone who is willing to put in the time and travel to learn, in many cases at their own expense.

(Don't forget that judging is a volunteer activity. )

What it takes to be a national judge, which would be necessary before becoming an international one, would also vary from federation to federation.

Posters above have mentioned the US system: see http://usfigureskating.org/story?id=89433. You don't have to be a skater to become a judge in the US, although it takes longer for a non-skater to learn what you need to know. But non-skaters are not going to become national judges in the US much less get recommended for international appointments.



I think you mean a judge can be certified even he hasn't skated himself?

gkelly's post is perfect. Almost identical in Canada, but you must have achieved a certain test level as skater to be a Judge/Evaluator. The criteria in Canada is as follows:

Skating Background Definitions

Any two of Junior Bronze Free Skating, Skills, Dance; or
Any one of Senior Bronze Free Skating, Skills, Dance or a Juvenile Competitive test; or
Any one higher level test

If you meet these criteria and pass the following, you become a Judge/Evaluator:

For each level and discipline of appointment as judge or evaluator candidates must complete:

Theory and Technical Clinic (off-ice)
Written and/ or practical exercises
Skill identification test.
Satisfactory trial judging or evaluating
Satisfactory judging or evaluating at the present level

So, I was for many years, a Junior-Senior Bronze Judge in singles only. When I applied for a promotion from Jr. Br to Sr. Br, I had to trial judge 3 different events and submit my marks to a senior Judge who then evaluated me and wrote a report and sent it to Skate Canada. What they are looking for, is that you are in line with the other Judges' marks. Skate Canada would then recommend promotion or not.

When I was judging, after each competition, we were given a "protocol" of the entire competition. This was a comparison of all the Judge's marks. We would all meet to discuss the protocol and whether any of us had any marks that were glaringly different from the others. If anyone did, then we would discuss how and why that happened.

Note gkelly stated above that you have to be promoted from within. If your Federation (Skate Canada for me), did not support you, no promotion. So, political in a sense. Although I did not experience anything adverse in this regard.

Sorry, I am not an eloquent writer, but hope this helps a wee bit.

 

[Kittysk8s]

Me again. I just want to acknowledge that there is subjectivity in judging. A minor example of this; in one of the post competition discussions, it was noted that I had not given a skater a +GOE on a double loop jump. I gave her a 0 GOE which means from me, she received the full base value of the jump. The skater had performed several 3 turns before the jump and thus it was considered to have been done "out of footwork/steps" and or "woven into the choreography" and thus deserved a +GOE, all other jump criteria having been met. I disagreed with this. When I was a skater, the loop was my hardest jump. It just didn't compute for me and I could not get any elevation. Coach suggested i perform several 3 turns before in order to "mimic" the jump entry and give me more momentum. It worked. So, in MY mind, these 3 turns are an assist which actually make the jump easier and not more difficult. So, just a small example based on my own skating experience. Is it better to have the 3 turns and not telegraph the jump? Yes. But it took me awhile to think that way.

 

[MalAssada]

People seem to complain so much about judges, but what truly makes me worry about bias is the tech specialist. Uncalled (or wrongly called) URs or edges can, IMO, do more damed than GOE.

 

[cl2]

but we are not blind. The new judging system/code of points is easily manipulated. There have been scandals like the one in salt lake city in 2002 between the canadian pairs and russian pairs. And recently with the russian girl and Yuna Kim, who, skated two perfect programs, but still lost. It's so easy for them to ask us to prove to them with protocols, but they can't admit politics is definitely involved.

I do grant you what most of us on this forum have excellent powers of observation. Nonetheless, I do caution you about falling prey to the cognitive fallacy of WYSIATI: What You See Is All There Is

 

[cl2]

Me again. I just want to acknowledge that there is subjectivity in judging. A minor example of this; in one of the post competition discussions, it was noted that I had not given a skater a +GOE on a double loop jump. I gave her a 0 GOE which means from me, she received the full base value of the jump. The skater had performed several 3 turns before the jump and thus it was considered to have been done "out of footwork/steps" and or "woven into the choreography" and thus deserved a +GOE, all other jump criteria having been met. I disagreed with this. When I was a skater, the loop was my hardest jump. It just didn't compute for me and I could not get any elevation. Coach suggested i perform several 3 turns before in order to "mimic" the jump entry and give me more momentum. It worked. So, in MY mind, these 3 turns are an assist which actually make the jump easier and not more difficult. So, just a small example based on my own skating experience. Is it better to have the 3 turns and not telegraph the jump? Yes. But it took me awhile to think that way.

Fascinating.

Not to discredit your judgement or anything, but doesn't what you just described support the case that the criteria "done out of steps" is indeed objective, whereas a criteria of the form "done out of steps that makes the jump harder" is subjective?

 

[Kittysk8s]

Fascinating.

Not to discredit your judgement or anything, but doesn't what you just described support the case that the criteria "done out of steps" is indeed objective, whereas a criteria of the form "done out of steps that makes the jump harder" is subjective?

I am just terrible at articulating, so apologies. I am not quite sure what you mean....what I meant was that I had hard time seeing those easy steps (inside 3's) as making the jump more difficult when I knew it was helping the skater and so I was being subjective.....lol...does that answer your question?

 

[humbaba]

I am just terrible at articulating, so apologies.

No need to apologize, Kittysk8s. I find you very articulate. Your reports of your own experiences as a judge are very interesting and enlightening. Thanks so much for sharing with us.