2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[skylark]

but his free skate, boy do i LOVE his new LP! so much fun, i was laughing the entire time. he seemed a little shy and embarrassed out there, i hope he'll grow more comfortable and just go for it and sell it. the opening for example, i would love to see him at least mouth the lyrics all exaggeratedly with some passion. it seemed he grew more comfortable towards the end where it looked he was feeling the music more. loved the ending move!!

if he were an extrovert i feel like he would sell that program quite a lot. be ridiculous and over the top while feeling everything. sort of like jean-luc baker goofing off. this program showed me that he is probably quite a shy guy who doesn't goof off all that much (or that obnoxiously).

I wish I'd said all that! My feelings exactly, especially about him feeling the music.

You've given a thoughtful and beautiful analysis of why this program works so great with Max ... and also how he's introvert/shy about expressing it full out. I think it already brings out all that is charming in Max, and as he gets more extrovert-y on the ice with it, I think it's gonna combine with his technical prowess to be something really special.

 

[andromache]

It seems that everyone on Raf's team has had issue with spin levels -- it cost Adam some points at Worlds and had level issues at his senior B this season. Ashley has had level issues as well.

So true. And Adam of all people has GORGEOUS spins...he just misses the levels.

I know Ashley in particular has talked about skipping her spins in run-throughs (which considering her age, makes some sense because some of those positions must hurt). I don't know how spin levels even work, and Nathan doesn't have awful positions. Anyway, this needs to be fixed by the GP. Boyang and Shoma (who I consider to be Nathan's peers and main competitors) don't lose points there.

 

[skylark]

It's amazing how much technical advancement we've seen the last year. We've seen a ratified quad flip and quad loop in 2016, and each different quad (through the lutz) being attempted by at least two men in competition. I worry that we will see these men peak for very short periods like we see with the women.

I hope not. I abhor the very idea of these prepubescent girls winning everything before they've had a chance to develop their full potential. I want to see artistry and expression, not a bunch of jumps. I'm not saying, btw, that Nathan is near some of the other men in performance maturity, but he's clearly paying attention to his artistry and has talent in that direction. I like that Marina said they worked on the emotional level of performance.

 

[Jammers]

Nathan is doing the 4Lz and flip? Damn this kid isn't messing around is he? Just hope he stays healthy and doesn't overdue it. He's the future of US men's skating maybe the present.

 

[skatelikewind1966]

Nathan is doing the 4Lz and flip? Damn this kid isn't messing around is he? Just hope he stays healthy and doesn't overdue it. He's the future of US men's skating maybe the present.

Amazing!
https://www.instagram.com/p/BLUCsF4BzLI/

 

[ice coverage]

I updated my spreadsheet! I'm going to wait one more week to unleash all the numbers, but I'll give you top 5 for Overall, SP and overall for both junior and senior domestically. ...

NEXT UP: Nathan Chen at Finlandia Trophy, the final Challenger event before the start of the Grand Prix. Torgashev and Peter Liu in JGP Germany (though USFS has not officially released the entries).

Thx for all the data, Mrs. P .

Haven't watched Nathan's Finlandia SP yet, but am excited for him to go for the podium :hap36:. (Please stay healthy, Nathan.)
Hugs to Torgashev.
Enjoyed watching Peter Liu for the first time.

---

Timothy Dolensky is on the cover of SKATING Magazine as part of USFS' "Show Me Healthy" week next week: https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/782955287422509060

That is quite a nice photo! And really nice that Timothy got some of the limelight!

Very cool for Tim .
Happy that Max, Jason, and Adam were featured as well.
(My only regret is that some Champs Camp-ers from the men's discipline were not included. I think six amazing athletes from U.S. ladies were included vs. four from U.S. men.)

---

Ta-da! I have officially become a Nathan Chen:luv17: fan. His SP at Finlandia is just gorgeous. His expression and musicality are on the way to becoming the complete package, so that he can compete with Shoma, Javi, Hanyu.

Don't worry, I'm not abandoning Adam, Jason or Max. Each of them has such wonderful qualities as skaters, and each is gorgeous in his own way. I think it's amazing and wonderful that as US fans, we value each of these very different men with such great support and admiration. ...

:agree: Esp. love the sentiments in your second paragraph, skylark.
And I know that they apply to even more than Nathan/Adam/Jason/Max.
Go, U.S. men :yay:.

I wish I'd said all that! My feelings exactly, especially about him feeling the music.

You've given a thoughtful and beautiful analysis of why this program works so great with Max ... and also how he's introvert/shy about expressing it full out. I think it already brings out all that is charming in Max, and as he gets more extrovert-y on the ice with it, I think it's gonna combine with his technical prowess to be something really special.

Not sure that it's a matter of Max being an introvert -- at least not in general. In his exhibition programs, he has been known to be quite the extrovert .

But I agree that the more expressive he can be for The Lion King, the better.
Looking forward to his improvements over the course of the season. Go, Max :luv17:.

 

[skylark]

:agree: Esp. love the sentiments in your second paragraph, skylark.
And I know that they apply to even more than Nathan/Adam/Jason/Max.
Go, U.S. men :yay:.

Absolutely! Grant has become a beloved favorite of mine, as Ricky Dornbush and Ross Miner have been since Nationals 2011. Also there is a kid who skated to Sinatra so charmingly last year that he's a favorite too, even tho' his name escapes me at the moment.:

 

[friedbanana]

Nathan is a beast!!!!!!!

 

[Jammers]

Nathan has grown so much even a couple years ago he looked like a kid but now he looks like a Senior man.

 

[chuckm]

Nathan is in 2nd place after the SP at Finlandia with 87.60. His SP: 4z+3t, 4f↓, 3a

Kovtun is in 1st place with 88.26 thanks to inflated PCS scores. He landed 4s+3t, 4t (-3.73 GOE) and 3a.


Patrick Chan is 3rd with 84.59, 4t (-4 GOE), 3a (-2.33 GOE), 3z+3t

 

[skylark]

Not sure that it's a matter of Max being an introvert -- at least not in general. In his exhibition programs, he has been known to be quite the extrovert .
.

Yes, you're quite right. That will teach me not to use a word just because someone else used it. I got lazy and imprecise.

Many people are extroverts in performance while they're more introverted or reserved in "real" life. So many actors and comedians, musicians and even teachers have said this (Johnny Carson is s famous example). Someone had said a couple weeks ago that Sasha Cohen was a little reserved, even nerdy, in person, while projecting something else on the ice. On p. 23 of this thread it's suggested that Max may belong in this group and that Richard Dornbush said that all Max does is skate and study. I sort of jumped on board with that thought. (fyi: I can relate.)

A couple people had said in the comp thread that they thought Max held back a little or didn't himself fully believe in the choreography of The Lion King program. I don't agree with that. I think he loves it, but may be slightly understated in his performance of it thus far, but it'll grow in time, probably very quickly.

Max also, I feel, gives 110% to his performance. So please don't anyone think I am saying anything different. Max came on my radar when I saw him at Skate America 2013, where he performed Carmen. In practices, warm ups, programs, he's so likable and genuine.

 

[Mrs. P]

Nathan is in 2nd place after the SP at Finlandia with 87.60. His SP: 4z+3t, 4f↓, 3a

Kovtun is in 1st place with 88.26 thanks to inflated PCS scores. He landed 4s+3t, 4t (-3.73 GOE) and 3a.


Patrick Chan is 3rd with 84.59, 4t (-4 GOE), 3a (-2.33 GOE), 3z+3t

If you want to call getting 38 inflated...well OK.

 

[Tavi...]

If you want to call getting 38 inflated...well OK.

I actually think PCS may be coming down to earth a bit this season. Fun fact:

Jason SP debut Skate America 2013: PCS 38.93 (Nebelhorn: 36.03)
Shoma SP debut Skate America 2015: PCS 38.50
Boyang SP debut Cup China 2015: PCS 36.29
Nathan SP debut Finlandia 2016: PCS 37.75

 

[ice coverage]

Yes, you're quite right. That will teach me not to use a word just because someone else used it. I got lazy and imprecise.

Many people are extroverts in performance while they're more introverted or reserved in "real" life. So many actors and comedians, musicians and even teachers have said this (Johnny Carson is s famous example). Someone had said a couple weeks ago that Sasha Cohen was a little reserved, even nerdy, in person, while projecting something else on the ice. On p. 23 of this thread it's suggested that Max may belong in this group and that Richard Dornbush said that all Max does is skate and study. I sort of jumped on board with that thought. (fyi: I can relate.)

A couple people had said in the comp thread that they thought Max held back a little or didn't himself fully believe in the choreography of The Lion King program. I don't agree with that. I think he loves it, but may be slightly understated in his performance of it thus far, but it'll grow in time, probably very quickly.

Max also, I feel, gives 110% to his performance. So please don't anyone think I am saying anything different. Max came on my radar when I saw him at Skate America 2013, where he performed Carmen. In practices, warm ups, programs, he's so likable and genuine.

No worries, skylark. I hope I did not sound argumentative.
I agree that Max loves The Lion King, and is "all in."

[:agree: Am familiar with the Johnny Carson example (as one of many), and cite it all the time myself.
As a lover of words, I have some thoughts on the descriptors (which I recognize were not yours) re Sasha, but will restrain myself from going off topic into a discussion of those.]

 

[Crossover]

Nathan has grown so much even a couple years ago he looked like a kid but now he looks like a Senior man.

He also has "it" factor as well as great presence on the ice.

 

[Mrs. P]

Speaking of Kovtun -- It is interesting to note the type of fields that our US men will be facing in the GP.

Including those with two events.

Adam Rippon (Skate America + Trophee de France):
USA (3): Jason Brown (SA), Tim Dolensky (SA), Nathan Chen (TdF)
Top 10 World during this quad plus lasat Olympics (3): Javier Fernandez (TdF) Boyang Jin (SA), Shoma Uno (SA), Denis Ten (SA/TdF) Maxim Kovtun (SA), Nam Nguyen (SA) + Jason
GPF/4CC/Euros medalists: Sergei Voronov
GPF qualifers: Daisuke Murakami (SA); Takahito Mura (TdF)
JGPF/Jr. Worlds medalists (this quad): Sota Yamamoto (TdF) + Nathan

Max Aaron (Rostelecom Cup + Cup of China):
USA (1): Ross Miner
Top 10 World/Olympics: Javier Fernandez (Rostelecom),Boyang Jin (Cup of China), Mikhail Kolyada (Rostelcom), Patrick Chan (Cup of China), Shoma Uno (Rostelecom), Michal Brezina (Cup of China); Han Yan (COC); Maxim Kovtun (COC);
GPF/4CC/Euros: Sergei Voronov (Euros/GPF medalist, COC); Alexei BYCHENKO (Euros medalist- RC)
GPF qualifiers: Daisuke Murakami (COC)
JGPF/Jr. Worlds medalists (2): Daniel Samohin (COC) and Alexander Petrov (COC)

Nathan Chen (Trophee de France + NHK Trophy):
USA (2): Adam Rippon (TdF), Jason Brown (NHK), Grant Hochstein (NHK)
Top 10 World.Olympics(9): Javier Fernandez (TdF), Yuzuru Hanyu (NHK), Mikhail Kolyada (NHK); Denis Ten (tDF); Nam Nguyen (NHK); Misha Ge (TdF) + Jason, Adam and Grant
GPF/4CC/Euros (1): Alexei BYCHENKO (NHK)
GPF qualifiers: Takahito Mura (TdF)
JGPF/Jr. Worlds medalists: Sota Yamamoto (both events)

Grant Hochstein (Skate Canada + NHK Trophy):
USA (3): Ross Miner (SC), Nathan Chen (NHK), Jason Brown (NHK)
Top 10 Worlds/Olympics(5): Yuzuru Hanyu (SC/NHK), Mikhail Kolyada (NHK), Patrick Chan (SC), Michel Brezina (SC); Han Yan (SC),
GPF finalist: Takahito Mura (SC),
JGPF/Jr. Worlds medalists (3): Daniel Samohin (SC), Alexander Petrov (SC) + Nathan

Ross Miner (Skate Canada + Cup of China)
USA (2): Max Aaron (COC), Grant Hochstein (SC)
Top 10 World/Olympics (6): Boyang Jin (COC), Patrick Chan (both events), Michael Brezina (SC), Han Yan (both events), Maxim Kovtun (COC) + Grant
GPF finalist Takahito Mura (SC)
JPGF/Jr. Worlds medalists: (2) Daniel Samohin (SC), Alexander Petrov (SC)

Jason Brown (Skate America + NHK Trophy):
USA (4): Adam Rippon (SA); Tim Dolensky (SA); Nathan Chen (NHK); Grant Hochstein
Top 10 at World/Olympics skaters (9): Yuzuru Hanyu (NHK), Boyang Jin (SA), Mikhail Kolyada (NHK), Shoma Uno (SA); Denis Ten (SA); Maxim Kovtun (SA), Nam Nguyen (both events) (+Adam and Grant).
GPF/4CC/Euros (2): Sergei Voronov, Alexei BYCHENKO
GPF qualifiers: Daisuke Murakami (SA),
JGPF/Jr. Worlds medalists (2): Sota Yamamoto(+ Nathan)

I tried to include multiple categories to give a broad look.

 

[skylark]

He also has "it" factor as well as great presence on the ice.

Yes!

 

[Tavi...]

So my takeaway after watching Finlandia:

Jason and Nathan are running neck and neck in total scores. Nathan's FS TES +10> Jason's at Lombardia /SLC; Jason's FS PCS is +10 > Nathan's. It's too early in the season to say whether this pattern will hold and where the other guys will fit - I think Adam and Max at least are also capable of achieving total scores in the same range.

What's interesting about the TES here is that Nathan's BV with 5 quads was about 104, but with net negative GOE it fell to 96. Jason's BV at his two events was 76-80 but with positive GOE the total TES was 85-89.

Two very different ways to achieve the same goal.

Should be an interesting season.

 

[Meoima]

At this point I'm willing to watch Jason more because he does perform well.

 

[temadd]

Nathan is doing the 4Lz and flip? Damn this kid isn't messing around is he? Just hope he stays healthy and doesn't overdue it. He's the future of US men's skating maybe the present.

Not just 4Lz, 4 Lz in combination with 3T!