2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[Mrs. P]

I just crunched the numbers and despite the bomb Jason put at NHK, he's still squarely in third place in overall averages (as far as averages in all categories except SP/FS PCS) and still managed to pull the highest PCS, on average.

Nathan did pass Jason in PCS in the FS at NHK -- but it took Jason bombing combined with a favorable start order to make this happen. Still Nathan made a very good case for himself at this competition.

One little interesting competition note to watch for: Adam Rippon was originally entered in Golden Spin, but now that he's going to GPF, will that mean USFSA will replace him? If so, with who? The official substitutes are Alexander Johnson and Nathan Chen (who is also going to GPF). Jason was not listed as a sub -- but neither was Ashley and we saw she was listed shortly after COC.

And obviously we'll see Adam and Nathan square off again at GPF.

Also not mentioned earlier that Andrew Torgashev won a bronze medal at Tallin Trophy. Congrats.

 

[mrrice]

I must say that I am happy for Nathan and the fact that he was able to hold it together after Hanyu's giant score. I really see an improvement in HIM as a skater. However, I am not a fan of his LP. What surprised me more was Jason not moving up and delivering a program that for him, was far below par. I'm not sure what to make of Grant. He's had 2 GP's and done poorly at both. I hope he can rebound for Nationals and maybe catch some of Caroline's new fire because with the strength of the top men and the Juniors Alexei, and Vincent, doing so well this year. I can't imagine he'll make it back to Worlds.

 

[chuckm]

Nathan landed the 3a in both SP and FS at NHK. This was important for him and helped him win that silver medal and ticket to the GPF. He also landed 3 of the 4 quads attempted in the FS, another big step forward for him, and that helped his PCS scores to go up. All of the judges except the Italian judge gave him PCS scores in the 8s.

 

[yyyskate]

Nathan, this boy really got skills! he is actually a total package. I have a strong feeling that he will become World Champion(and sensation) one day(bar any major injuries). I hope he can develop towards the destination he is meant to be.

 

[karne]

Stroke, stroke jump, stroke stroke jump = 84 PCS.

Actual choreography with actual notable improvement by skater and actual effort to perform = 76 PCS.


He's damn strong because if I were him right now I'd be throwing my hands up in the air and say "why the frick do I fricking bother?!" Of course, if he dumped out any choreography, incoming flak attack!

 

[skylark]

Stroke, stroke jump, stroke stroke jump = 84 PCS.

Actual choreography with actual notable improvement by skater and actual effort to perform = 76 PCS.

It's so predictable that you'll throw poison darts at anyone who threatens your favorites. And that's Nathan Chen and Adam Rippon.

 

[mrrice]

Stroke, stroke jump, stroke stroke jump = 84 PCS.

Actual choreography with actual notable improvement by skater and actual effort to perform = 76 PCS.


He's damn strong because if I were him right now I'd be throwing my hands up in the air and say "why the frick do I fricking bother?!" Of course, if he dumped out any choreography, incoming flak attack!

You won't get any flack from me as Nathan reminds me of a young Max. Whom you and I both love. Max puts his heart and soul into the choreography his is given and that's all we can ask of Nathan as well. When I was dancing, we did what the choreographer taught us and that was just how it was. Nathan is still fresh out Juniors isn't he? I think he's ahead of the curve for someone his age.

 

[skylark]

During Jason's spiral in his long program today, I was thinking that when you perform a spiral like Jason does, it doesn't have to be the long spiral that we got used to in the 90s. Memo to all ladies.

All the skater needs to do is perform it with feeling, as Jason does. Every moment in that program receives its due attention. Even when he doesn't quite pull off his usual gorgeous jumps, he makes me feel so much, because he feels so much, the music, the intent, the story. That's worth celebrating.

 

[skylark]

Nathan is still fresh out Juniors isn't he? I think he's ahead of the curve for someone his age.

:agree: He really is. Five years ago, Yuzuru was Nathan's age.

Up until this fall, I was predisposed not to like Nathan; I was ready to pre-judge him as a multi-quad jumper only. But he's surprised me and made me a fan. Complete. Package.

 

[karne]

It's so predictable that you'll throw poison darts at anyone who threatens your favorites. And that's Nathan Chen and Adam Rippon.

And it's so predictable that you'll completely fail to acknowledge that there's a serious problem there.

 

[mirai4life]

finally someone competitive/exciting enough for me to follow in the U.S. Men field.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Nathan landed the 3a in both SP and FS at NHK. This was important for him and helped him win that silver medal and ticket to the GPF. He also landed 3 of the 4 quads attempted in the FS, another big step forward for him, and that helped his PCS scores to go up. All of the judges except the Italian judge gave him PCS scores in the 8s.

By landed I'm guessing you mean rotated? Because his 3As were not clean (-GOE in both instances) and he only got +GOE on his 4F+3T (2 for 6 positive GOE on quads).

He got 14.84 points in triple axels and even if those were removed he would have still won silver by 5.63 points.

Frankly I think the judges beyond seeing so many quads are actually recognizing that Chen actually is a talented skater outside the jumps - when he actually commits to the program and choreo outside of the jumps.

 

[Mrs. P]

By landed I'm guessing you mean rotated? Because his 3As were not clean (-GOE in both instances) and he only got +GOE on his 4F+3T (2 for 6 positive GOE on quads).

He got 14.84 points in triple axels and even if those were removed he would have still won silver by 5.63 points.

Frankly I think the judges beyond seeing so many quads are actually recognizing that Chen actually is a talented skater outside the jumps - when he actually commits to the program and choreo outside of the jumps.

So what you're saying is that he's getting PCS based on potential?

Really what it's interesting to me, regardless of the PCS is that you have three different US men who have scored 180+ based on different strategies.

Nathan, at this time, is really getting his points by simply hitting the BV. His BV was 100+ but once all the -GOE hit, he was down to 97+

Jason and Adam got to, 92 and 94 TES, respectively via +GOE -- Adam earned 13.37 in GOE at TEB, Jason earned 11.47 GOE at Skate America What's also interesting to see is their BV was actually the same (around 81+) despite Jason getting a UR on the quad -- basically Jason higher backloading and better spin/step levels enabled this to happen. There's still a bit of a PCS buffer between Nathan and Adam/Jason, though Nathan is getting closer to Adam's PCS.

Obviously, Nathan has a bigger celling potential if he can get those jumps even slightly clean -- we're not talking +2, just +1....and obviously had a bit of buffer if he makes errors. However, at this point, he's not there yet.

While Jason's stock took a hit here, I don't think he should be counted out yet. And Max has been steadily improving. It seems that after the GP, those are the top 4 vying for World spots...though someone like Timothy Dolensky or Vincent Zhou could be a major dark horse.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Actual choreography with actual notable improvement by skater and actual effort to perform = 76 PCS

I know right - it's appalling!!! Hochstein really does deserve *much* better than 76.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gpcan2016/SEG002.HTM

 

[Sydney Rose]

There is nothing "complete" about Nathan's "package." There may be one day but there's no way of knowing that right now.

As for comparing him to Hanyu: Yuzu showed technical ability, musicality, and artistry at a very young age and has the videos on YouTube to prove that. He wasn't just a jumper who somehow managed to add on everything else later.

 

[mrrice]

There is nothing "complete" about Nathan's "package." There may be one day but there's no way of knowing that right now.

As for comparing him to Hanyu: Yuzu showed technical ability, musicality, and artistry at a very young age and has the videos on YouTube to prove that. He wasn't just a jumper who somehow managed to add on everything else later.

I'm not sure I get why we're debating Nathan's scores or packaging since he was a Junior less than a year ago. We should be heaping praise on this young man who just defeated a former US Champion, Olympian, and 3 time World Team Member. Packaging S'mackaging....There were 3 US Men at NHK and he's the only one who made the podium. We should be celebrating that fact and that the US has a star on the horizon. IMO, the future looks bright for our Men.

 

[Tavi...]

I'm not sure I get why we're debating Nathan's scores or packaging since he was a Junior less than a year ago. We should be heaping praise on this young man who just defeated a former US Champion, Olympian, and 3 time World Team Member. Packaging S'mackaging....There were 3 US Men at NHK and he's the only one who made the podium. We should be celebrating that fact and that the US has a star on the horizon. IMO, the future looks bright for our Men.

While Nathan did a very good job today and congrats to him, there's no need for you to put Grant and Jason down in order to build Nathan up. He didn't defeat Jason; Jason defeated himself. And that's an important difference.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So what you're saying is that he's getting PCS based on potential?

Really what it's interesting to me, regardless of the PCS is that you have three different US men who have scored 180+ based on different strategies.

Nathan, at this time, is really getting his points by simply hitting the BV. His BV was 100+ but once all the -GOE hit, he was down to 97+

Jason and Adam got to, 92 and 94 TES, respectively via +GOE -- Adam earned 13.37 in GOE at TEB, Jason earned 11.47 GOE at Skate America What's also interesting to see is their BV was actually the same (around 81+) despite Jason getting a UR on the quad -- basically Jason higher backloading and better spin/step levels enabled this to happen. There's still a bit of a PCS buffer between Nathan and Adam/Jason, though Nathan is getting closer to Adam's PCS.

Obviously, Nathan has a bigger celling potential if he can get those jumps even slightly clean -- we're not talking +2, just +1....and obviously had a bit of buffer if he makes errors. However, at this point, he's not there yet.

While Jason's stock took a hit here, I don't think he should be counted out yet. And Max has been steadily improving. It seems that after the GP, those are the top 4 vying for World spots...though someone like Timothy Dolensky or Vincent Zhou could be a major dark horse.

I think Nathan is getting PCS based on the actual quality of his skating. It's very easy for people to dismiss a strong jumper as only that. It's counter-intuitive to say "Whoa, wait, he can land a 4Z *and* deliver a good program?!" because we're so pre-disposed to think there are jumpers and there are artists with a sliver of skaters in the middle of that Venn diagram. I've always thought Nathan's level of skating is great - he could use more expression (at times he seems like he's all business), but I think he's accelerating himself technically so, like Boyang, he has a competitive base and then he starts to bring out the inherent artistry once he's got clout with the judges. Jason Brown is a very unique, rare exception where he continually "gets away" with average (or, these days, below average) jumping ability because the rest of his skating is so strong and refined.

Nathan will definitely be a force over the next quadrennial if he stays healthy. He's ambitious and clearly capable, and always looks determined when he's out there. 84 PCS is a bit too high with those many errors, but he has undeniable skating quality when he commits to it, and we've seen that in some of the programs already this season.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

There is nothing "complete" about Nathan's "package." There may be one day but there's no way of knowing that right now.

As for comparing him to Hanyu: Yuzu showed technical ability, musicality, and artistry at a very young age and has the videos on YouTube to prove that. He wasn't just a jumper who somehow managed to add on everything else later.

I disagree that Nathan lacks musicality and artistry - I think he's great at picking up nuances in the music and he has lovely edge quality. Yuzuru was never the complete package when he started either - only showed potential to have it.

Nathan started off as "cute" or "adorable" and then he was seen as a junior with potential and then all of a sudden he's this boss who lands crazy quads that up until last season (and a few Brandon Mroz type exceptions) were considered unthinkable. I get that people view Brown and Aaron and Rippon as sentimental faves, but given the direction of men's figure skating and the crazy echelons of difficulty, it's nice to know there's at least one 1 man keeping up (and arguably breaking new technical ground). I mean the guy does a 4Z and 4F in his SP... while no other US man has even attempted anything harder than a 4S, let alone two different quads. Any country would KILL to have a skater like Nathan on the horizon. He's unequivocally the future of US skating (it could have been Brown, but his technical ability is stagnant - while he's trying to even get 1 quad, Nathan's landed 4 - different ones... and done 4 quads in one program at US nationals). I mean, if y'all don't want Chen and would prefer to keep Brown/Aaron/Rippon, Canada will gladly take him!!

 

[mrrice]

While Nathan did a very good job today and congrats to him, there's no need for you to put Grant and Jason down in order to build Nathan up. He didn't defeat Jason; Jason defeated himself. And that's an important difference.

He didn't defeat Jason; Jason defeated himself. And that's an important difference.

Tavi, I didn't mention Grant or Jason in my original post. Nathan had absolutely nothing to do with the way that Jason skated. It was, and is, rare to see a healthy Jason not skate well. There's a saying "When Opportunity Knock's, Open the door" That's what Nathan was able to do. He walked through the open door that Jason and Grant left open for him. He also had to skate after the home country favorite and reigning Olympic Champion. The fact that he didn't crumble under the pressure is, IMO, a very big deal. I was expecting to see more praise for Nathan's performance than I'm seeing in the forum and I'm a little sad about it.