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- Jun 2, 2014
2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating
- Thread starter Mrs. P
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2014
I expect Jason to come roaring back. I can't wait to see all the guys. I think we are going to be treated to an awesome competition.
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- May 20, 2015
This opinion might make some people here mad (including karne - sorry!), but Tom Z. is no Frank Carroll. I think Tom Z. has improved as a coach since 2009-2011, but I don't see any of his students winning Olympic/world medals anytime soon.
Frank Carroll at his absolute best in absolute sound mind wouldn't be able to help any of the US men in this figure skating climate to win Olympic/world medals anytime soon. You can pick any US men past or present, put him under Frank's tutelage, how will they compare to Patrick, Yuzuru, Shoma, Javier.
Don't be ridiculous.
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
Correct!! Frank has exactly 1 Olympic Champion under his belt and that was Evan. To suggest that any skater make a change after this year would be foolish to say the least. Like Mariah Bell, if a skater were to make a move, it should have happened this season.
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- Mar 23, 2014
I don't think anyone is suggesting that anyone move coaches (at least in this thread) - instead, it seems to be a discussion regarding the abilities of various coaches to coach skaters to their full potential. Frank Carroll has taught numerous World and Olympic medalists (Evan and Michelle certainly reached their full potential under Frank, as did probably Linda Fratianne, Tim Goebel for a time, Denis for a time) and is generally thought of as a better coach than Tom Z. (though not a better coach for every skater, certainly).
If Jason/Max/Adam/whoever had begun training with Frank, say, in their junior days, would they be more successful now? Or another coach on Frank's level? That seems to be what this brief detour in conversation is about. FWIW, I think perhaps another coach could've helped Max reach his full potential - which I say because of Jason/Max/Adam, I think Max is the furthest from his fullest potential. For being incredibly athletically gifted in comparison to US men of the past, Max should have been able to make up for his perceived shortcomings in components with high TES, either by diversifying his quad output for higher BV or by maximizing his GOE, which he hasn't successfully done with Tom Z. For which I'm going to blame Tom Z. mostly, because he really hasn't seem to produce any skaters who are known for gorgeous flow out of jumps, transitions (which earn GOE), or other good GOE getters (though he did coach Jeremy and Josh, I"m not sure what "parts" of their skating Tom is responsible for).
IMO, Evan Lysacek had very little natural jumping ability or artistry and he was successful due to working his butt off and Frank Carroll. Tom Z. has had a lot more to work with in Max Aaron (who may not have the judge's favorite kind of inherent artistry, but is certainly more charismatic than Evan) and has made much less out of him.
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- Jul 9, 2014
BTW, What happened with Frank and Denis? Why aren't they working together anymore?
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- Feb 10, 2014
Frank Carroll coached Denis Ten to 2013 World silver and 2014 Olympic bronze medals. Unless you're simply saying that all the US men are hopeless of course.
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- Mar 23, 2014
Both Frank and Morozov are listed as Denis's coaches so it appears they are still working together in some capacity. He wanted a new choreographer and decided to stick around awhile learning more stuff? May also make travel on him easier, going to competitions/shows/Kazakhstan from Russia rather than the US.
That seems to be the assessment.
I will say that at the moment, U.S. men's medal prospects are slim. However, Denis Ten above is a great example who basically came out of nowhere to win a world medal. He finished like 13th or something at 4CC just a month earlier.
Things can can suddenly and skaters can surprise.
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
The US Men are so freakin' fickle....
I never know what to expect from them. My prediction list back in the summer had Max as the next US Champion. I like his Lion King program very much and I was actually happy he was keeping his SP from last year as it was big and IMO, positive change of style for Max. At this point, it looks like Nathan will be the top US Man. I certainly respect him and think he's the future but, there are still a TON of possibilities for the US. It will be interesting to see if Ricky and Jeremy have successful comebacks. We still have Adam, Jason, Ross, Grant, Alexander Johnson, and Timothy Dolensky who have all shown glimpses of brilliance this season.
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- Feb 10, 2014
The US Men are so freakin' fickle....
There have been a lot of ups and downs this season among the US men, but after the GPF I have a hard time seeing anyone besides Nathan as US champion this year. The US has been dying for someone who can compete with the top guys, and he appears to be the only one who can really do that right now. My personal feeling based on how the season's gone so far is that Adam, Jason, and Max are most likely to be fighting for the other medals; at different points during the season all three appeared to be likely World Team members, but right now I don't think any one of them is a clear favorite. As to Grant, Tim, Alex, and Ross, much as I like them, I doubt they are in the running this year unless someone else bombs; they just didn't do that well at their competitions this fall. That's not supposed to matter but I kinda think it does.
We won't see Ricky or Jeremy at Nats this year although they may come back in 2018.
http://www.usfsa.org/content/2017 Qualifiers.pdf
And if you want to make it more complicated....
Jason has beaten every U.S. man he faced this season EXCEPT Nathan. The only U.S. man in last year's top 9 at U.S. Nationals he did not compete against this season was Alexander Johnson and Vincent Zhou.
Adam has beaten several U.S. man -- including Nathan -- but has lost to Jason twice.
Nathan has lost to Adam at TEB, but obviously beat him definitively at GPF. He also beat Jason and Grant at NHK.
Jason has beaten every U.S. man he faced this season EXCEPT Nathan. The only U.S. man in last year's top 9 at U.S. Nationals he did not compete against this season was Alexander Johnson and Vincent Zhou.
Adam has beaten several U.S. man -- including Nathan -- but has lost to Jason twice.
Nathan has lost to Adam at TEB, but obviously beat him definitively at GPF. He also beat Jason and Grant at NHK.
You just have to look at natural ability to know Denis has it. The US men can't rotate their quads, save Nathan and Max. Both are no where near the level of Denis in presentation.
You need to give him something to work with. He is not a miracle worker. He can't turn a black swan into a white swan.
Also those years are weak years, most medalists wouldn't come near the podium at the GPF this year. So Frank can't do anything about it. That's the point. He's a great coach but with luck on his side. If his skaters compete in the wrong time, he wouldn't be so great.
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- Jul 9, 2014
Speaking of Vincent, what are the chances that he or Alexei Krasnozhon could upset a Senior Man and get on the Podium? Even Pewter would be great for one of them. Is there any chance they'll try and compete as Senior's? Is that even possible. I remember Ricky making the podium in 2011 as a Junior but, I don't think he did Junior Nationals as well, did he?
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
Oh, this ad.
I know. I love it!!!!!!:agree: I love the baby bird at the end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGjIW6XQnKo
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- Jun 2, 2014
I know. I love it!!!!!!:agree: I love the baby bird at the end.
The bird may be in honor of our bird programs from this year (Adam & Patrick?). Wasn't there also a bird flying around at one of the competitions, or am I thinking of something else?
Alexei is still a junior in the US, where he is going to run away with the title. All his major junior competition are in seniors.
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- Jul 9, 2014
Is Vincent a fulltime senior? I'm so confused..
No Vincent did the JGP. He competed the SP at Golden spin but W/D from the FS.
