2017 U.S. Nationals Championship Ladies FS

[KatGrace1925]

I think Gracie needs to sit out the rest of the season. The trajectory isn't there and she needs to come back in form next season, she can't afford to have another bomb moment. I also say she need's to go back to Alex completely. She need's to make huge changes before next year to come back, I believe she can but it will take change.

 

[KatGrace1925]

I have hopes for Gracie. This was not her year in any way. She can still turn it around and I believe now is the time for her to implement some huge changes in her life. I am still cautiously optimistic for her. I am a huge fan and I really hope she will do something to change her trajectory very very soon.

 

[FlattFan]

I just wish Tara would stop spouting non-sense like Gracie is one of the best technician ever.
Maybe like best ever in Illinois where she came from.

Her jumps are tiny in the past few years. Most jumps barely clear the ice.
Her 3lutz-3toe is no where near the best. She has a definitive lip.

I guess Tara doesn't know technique that well to make stupid statement like that. Hello, there are girls out there who can do all of those jumps with much better technique.

 

[klutzy]

I actually think Gracie is slowly improving. Her nationals programs were not as disastrous as Golden Spin. She's popping jumps, but not to the degree she did in Zagreb and she was upright. So, it not hopeless for her. Loved the look of the costume and music, but the music is too complex for someone who doesn't have a strong sense of musicality. She has no connection to it at all.

That said, she has no business going to Worlds this year--none, nada. She has not skated a clean program once. At this point, holding her up would be its own kind of burden and deeply unfair to other skaters.

Wish Polina hadn't been injured--having a stable skater in the mix would have been useful. Oh well, with the new girls in town and both Gracie and Polina on the fritz, there are a ton of questions about who will end up at the next Olympics.

 

[katha]

Tbh, I also don't think sending Gold to Worlds etc. would be good for her state of mind at the moment. I feel very sorry for her, she's obviously having some sort of crisis and telling her "to get over it" certainly won't help. She will need to work out for herself what the right approach is going forward, and I'm not sure adding the pressure and potential resentment (because she wasn't on the podium) of giving her further big assignments this season is the way to go.

 

[KatGrace1925]

I'm definitely not hopeless for her I think nationals was a better competition for her than Zagreb and France. She went back to her jumping layout from 2014 this week and it didn't work for her. I think last year's layout was the best. I do think she needs a change. I think that Frank Carroll is not working for her. I loved firebird but this long program has not worked at all. She need's to take advantage of the rules that allow any music and skate to music that she loves, and I just don't see that happening with Carroll.

She seemed happy about how things went when she went back to Alex. I would love to see that partnership restored at this point. FlattFan is right about Gracie's jumps being small but that is something that has been happening this year, last year she still had great spring to her jumps. Gracie hasn't had much going for her at all this season. She really needs refocusing, reshaping and repackaging. I love her and I am optimistic that there will be changes and improvements over this year, really there have to be cause time is running out.

 

[FlattFan]

Gracie is surrounded by idiots. That's the biggest problem. Frank Carroll is like the emperor who has no clothes. He is clueless. Gracie's problems expose his cluelessness to the world.

This girl was exciting when her jumps were big. Now, she can barely jump and her packaging is a total disaster. She needs Trump to make her great again. LOL.

 

[KwanIsALegend]

I've not seen anything. I would hope it would be 1, 2, and 3.

After all, they could send Gracie, the way others on this forum have suggested, and we could still end up with only two spots, based on Gracie's record this season.

Or we could take a chance on the "newbies" while playing fair as a wayside.

It is hard t believe they would send Gracie, I mean, based on what? She has had a really bad season. I could see if she did really well and metaled at her GP events and then qualified fr the GPF.
It would be very wrong to send her and I think a lot of people would have a problem with it. If they don't want to send newbies they could send Mirai!!

ETA I believe the national champion is guaranteed a spot, Ashley has to go, she earned her spot. So that leaves Mariah. Who I think is still a little juniorsih. So, I am all for Mirai getting the 3rd spot.:thumbsup:

 

[KatGrace1925]

I say just send the newbies. Give them a chance to fight on the world stage. A little change in US figure skating would be healthy for it at this point. Ashley is the veteran on the team, and I think Miriah and Karen both have a fighting chance of doing well.

 

[Sugarpova]

Congrats to the medallists!
Great to see the shakeup in US ladies
Hope that they can show good results at worlds!!!

 

[Superhero]

I was there tonight! Ashley was STUNNING, such a beautiful emotional program. Karen was great, really happy for her that she was able to put two successful programs together but she just is missing a bit of that performance spark imo. And Mariah is just sooo cute she reminds me of a young Debbie Reynolds. Really excited to watch her grow and mature as a skater! Gracie...wow oh wow was her performance lifeless and hard to watch. And I've just read her press conference interview where she stated she thinks"she's still pretty much one of the best skaters in the US and the world".......girl no. Now I really really believe she should be left off worlds, if she thinks she's one of the best in the world with the season she's had

Exactly, They're not helping her at all by giving her "a free ticket" to worlds and every other event. She has to fight for her spot just like the rest of the girls. She's still marketed as the no1 skater in the US and I think we all know why.
It's time you put your money on another horse! I'm sorry, but the thrill is gone!

 

[kalle]

Ok, done watching the top 5!

I must say that the two skates that got me emotional was Ashley's and Caroline's. Oh my, must be such a fantastic feeling for Caroline to have been able to fight back to this level after her injury. Outside the fact that she is still very slow, everything else was very good and to see a smile on her face is priceless!

Ashley was outstanding too. She is such a champion to deliver over and over again. Yes, some technical issues but overall, I would have her over Karen here. If they manage to up the transitions ahead of Worlds, she should be a real medal contender again.

Chen was fabulous and so happy to see her finally put it all together. Now, 4CC will a bit of a test if she can start to show some consistency.

Bell was doing well but overscored with those two initial glitches. I hope she will also start to show consistency on the international stage.

Mirai...oh Mirai. I had this feeling skating last in the SP would end up like this. Outside the technical issues here, I believe it was not a good choice by Wilson with this LP music.. As much as I love the quiet elegant SP, the LP is too "dark", too melancolic...not working for somebody like Mirai. Of course, you need to rotate and land those jumps but the music is important too.
That is why I loved Chen's fiery Tango, Zhang's soft Mission and Ashley's (The Muse??) programs.

Sad for Gold but not that surprised..

With SP/LP outings and results in hand, I would guarantee Ashley and Chen a spot at Worlds and let Mariah and Mirai battle it out at 4CC.
Actually, I would even include Chen in that 4CC battle but that will definitely not happen (she is the new US champion after all)

But, despite the new selection criterias, I believe Chen, Wagner and Bell will be named on tbe team and Gold as the first alternative.

 

[LeCygne]

Karen underrotated that 3Toe combo, but everything else is first rate. Love the second triple lutz.
Ashley underrotated her 3Toe combo, underrotated her 3sal combo, and the 3lutz combo. But deserved 2nd. Kinda over that theatric over the top look, but if that's what international judges like,then it is what it is.
Mariah gave a good fight after 2 mistakes, but combine with the mistakes in the SP, i think she's in the same boat as Mirai.
Mirai also didn't give up like in the past. however, those jumps were not good. I think they need to test these two again before world.

Agree with pretty much everything. Karen's 3T was underrotated but everything else was wonderful. Barely even noticed the double salchow, which is how you sell a program after a mistake. Ashley underrotated 3S and 3Z and is lucky those weren't called. Glad the judges got the overall placement right. Mariah is just a joy to watch, way to come back in the second half. If she could just get that 3-3 consistent. Heartbroken for Mirai, as I think she really needed a great skate (despite the awful program). It seemed like she was so well-trained and in such a good mental state before this competition. She actually has fixed her UR/landing problem if you look at previous competitions this season. It's sad to see her old habits creeping back in and even sadder that this is where her season ends.

Hate to even mention Gracie but it's a good thing this nightmare season is over. She needs to make a change pronto. I have faith that she'll come back roaring next season and look back and laugh at how ridiculous it was that this entire season was ruined because of Boston 2016.

 

[amc987]

And Gracie can, given her recent performances? If Gracie had the ability to skate well currently, wouldn't she have done it tonight? I personally think the World team should be Karen, Ashley and Mariah. I would make Mirai first alternate. I have no reason to believe that putting Gracie on the team would make it more likely the US would earn three spots.

I think that's why it's valuable to send Gracie to 4CC. Give her one more chance to work out her demons. All reports are that going back to Alex helped her. And her SP was an improvement over basically everything else she's done this year. Maybe a few more weeks will get her back to her old self.

It's also possible for Gracie to end up out of the top 15 if she bombs the way she did today. Internationally she wouldn't be able to break 170 points with such a skate, which means she would likely be buried not just by the Russians, Japanese, Canadians and Kostner, but also by Elizabet Tursynbaeva, Laurine Lecavalier, Li Zijun and Park So Youn. If Karen skates as well at Worlds as she did here, she can hold her own against that quartet. A clean Mirai or Mariah should be competitive with Wakaba & Mai. Plus, what message would it send to Gracie to bump her into the World's team after such a skate? Likely to backfire by making her more complacent, rather than lighting a fire under her butt to fight for her spot again next year.

USFS would have to be clear with Gracie that this was her one terrible Nationals performance. It's not a perfect parallel to Ashley's in 2014 b/c Ashley had medaled at both of her GP events and at the GPF. But Gracie's international record, especially in the championship part of seasons, has been very strong since she became a senior. 2013 Worlds- 6th; 2014 Olympics- 4th; 2014 Worlds- 5th; 2015 Worlds- 4th; 2016 Worlds- 4th. Yes, she's underachieved based on her prodigious talent, but she and Ashley are still the best we've got if they're skating well.

I really don't think we'll be able to keep 3 spots if we send Bell, Chen, and Ashley. That may be the best option if Gracie is still in this funk by February. But let's give her more time to prove that she's competition ready for Helsinki before we resort to lighting candles/ wishing/ hoping/ praying for 3 spots. I think Gracie has, based on her career performances, earned another chance to prove to everyone why she should go to Helsinki.

 

[KatGrace1925]

Hate to even mention Gracie but it's a good thing this nightmare season is over. She needs to make a change pronto. I have faith that she'll come back roaring next season and look back and laugh at how ridiculous it was that this entire season was ruined because of Boston 2016.

I for one am starting to think it is not just Boston, that maybe something else is going on in her life to cause this. Frank Carroll said in a recent interview she has been in a deep depression, that seems extreme for the circumstances. I believed she was down, but depressed makes me think there is more to this whole thing than meets the eye.

I want her to leave Frank, I don't think he has ever really understood how to work with Gracie. He is a brilliant coach but Gracie needs more than that now. She needs someone who can understand what is going on in her head.

 

[KwanIsALegend]

I was there tonight! Ashley was STUNNING, such a beautiful emotional program. Karen was great, really happy for her that she was able to put two successful programs together but she just is missing a bit of that performance spark imo. And Mariah is just sooo cute she reminds me of a young Debbie Reynolds. Really excited to watch her grow and mature as a skater! Gracie...wow oh wow was her performance lifeless and hard to watch. And I've just read her press conference interview where she stated she thinks"she's still pretty much one of the best skaters in the US and the world".......girl no. Now I really really believe she should be left off worlds, if she thinks she's one of the best in the world with the season she's had

I loved Ashley's performance as well. I was so happy for her at the end. She did an amazing job of holding it together and skating well. She was very expressive and fluid on the ice. She pulls you into her with a Kwanesque joy and love for the sport.
I am not quite sold on Karen yet. I enjoy her spirals and lay backs, she did a great job at nationals, but I would have put Ashley ahead. Ashley has the extra polish, that 'champion' polish.

That is perplexing to me that Gracie would say that. I don't know. What I get from Gracie when she takes the ice, is that she doesn't want to be there. She dreads it. It is sad to be a witness to this. I hope she finds what she needs inside of her. It might be a very good thing for her to miss worlds and have a long break. A coaching change might be in order as well. Evan and Michelle did wonderful with Frank. But Gracie and Frank I think do not work anymore. She needs to decide now if she wants to start working with a new coach for the Olympic season.

ETA I just heard Terry Gannon say ( at the end of Gracies skate) that the champion is not guaranteed a spot on the world team. I did n't know that.

 

[[email protected]]

Just watched the FS. If I compare this competition with Russian Nationals which I attended, well... I guess I don't want to go that direction. Just a couple of comments.

Karen Chen impressed me during SP. But her long program does not stand out. And the score makes no sense. I would not mind 140+ score for a clean program. But she popped one jump. I see here parallels with the situation in Russia where they propped Sotskova over Pogorilaya during the Nationals. Here if the competition was judged to international standards, Karen would not have 214 and would not win over Ashley. But U.S. needs the second lady to be taken seriously by international panels as Gracie is gone, at least this season. I think the Russian Fed used the same logic trying to build up Sotskova's brand. In fact, it will be interesting to see how Maria will fare against Karen. I think they have a history competing while juniors. But so far Maria has been much more consistent.

Another topic is "poor" Tessa Hong who tried to play Zagitova's game. Now everyone sees how difficult and risky backloading is.

Ashley would receive similar score internationally (hence, one could argue that she "wuzrobbed" as Karen got the "nationals score"). She was in general "good old Ashley", but a bit more tired than during her best performances like Boston.

I liked Caroline Zhang. Good performance, a bit too slow at times. Her 3Lo-3Lo is amazing and her landings reminded me of Mao. But she would not get into world top-10 yet.

I undersand that life has many turns but still think that this year was the perfect timing for Polina to start shining. Alas, she could not make it.

 

[noidont]

Gracie needs to suffer a bit. It's not a bad thing.
I was impressed by the top 3. I honestly think all of them can score pretty well at Worlds. Not in medal contention (I think Evgenia, Anna and Satoko have the Worlds podium locked up) but could place 4-6 on a good day (in the order of Bell, Wagner, Chen.)

 

[topaz emerald]

Well, Mariah in 3rd!!!!

I have to say, if they boot Mariah to put Gracie on the worlds team after the seasons they both have had, I am going to be so angry I can't see straight.

OMG! I haven't watched it yet, but I'm so thrilled to find out Mariah made it on the podium!!!!!!!!!

Not a big fan, but happy for Karen taking gold after skating such a solid short program, you can see she wanted it the most, and my prediction was right! I'm just so happy Mariah pulled through and medaled after so many failed attempts at US Nationals. She deserves a chance to showcase her potential on the world stage. I hope USFS sends her to worlds.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Karen Chen impressed me during SP. But her long program does not stand out. And the score makes no sense. I would not mind 140+ score for a clean program. But she popped one jump. I see here parallels with the situation in Russia where they propped Sotskova over Pogorilaya during the Nationals. Here if the competition was judged to international standards, Karen would not have 214 and would not win over Ashley. But U.S. needs the second lady to be taken seriously by international panels as Gracie is gone, at least this season. I think the Russian Fed used the same logic trying to build up Sotskova's brand.

Ashley would receive similar score internationally (hence, one could argue that she "wuzrobbed" as Karen got the "nationals score"). She was in general "good old Ashley", but a bit more tired than during her best performances like Boston.

Big fat no to that one. With a fair technical caller, Ashley would have so many UR calls, her BV would be way lower - as would her GOE. Add in spins and Ashley wouldn't touch Karen in TES. And I don't even see where she should beat Karen so clearly in PCS - Karen actually has better SS & TR.
IMO, it's an absolute no-brainer that Karen won rightfully, and I'm glad it happened and Ashley wasn't held up because of reputation.

Also, there is absolutely zero resemblence to that russian nationals mess - here the TP was lenient on both, but Maria beat Anna because she had several UR overlooked while the TP was strict with Anna. Big difference. And I'd say the reason is the political influence of their Coaches... and I'll leave it at that, because it's been discussed to death (but I gotta say it again: it was a really dumb political move)

Bottom line: Karen deserved to win, and there is no political reason or ulterior motive needed. She's just really good and delivered.