2017 U.S. Nationals Championship Ladies FS

[Poodlepal]

The thing is is that she is in the same place Polina is now in. Just like Polina, what if she does have a good but not great next season? What if America only gets two or even three spots for the Olympics and those spots are earned by skaters not named Polina and Gracie? And what if those other skaters also have a less than a great season of skating? Better hope America does well this coming Worlds or it is going to be a mess choosing who goes and who stays home come 2018.

Neither Polina nor Gracie are world medalists or Gpf finale medalists. Polina was never US champion. They deserve no special treatment. If they skate bad at Nats next year, they stay home. Period.

But, if they are Gpf medalists, as was Ashley in 2014, that's different.

 

[ice coverage]

... And Canadians don't generally hyphenate. A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian, whether native-born or naturalized. ..

Sorry that I did not realize that Canadians do not generally hyphenate.
I am aware of the "Japanese Canadian Cultural Centre" in Toronto and the "Japanese Canadian National Museum" in BC, but did not realize that their names do not have a hyphen.

Well, Mervin is not Asian-American either. He's Canadian. ...

... And Whatif did say "and then there's Merin Tran" in reply to a remark about someone who was half Chinese.

I believe you misinterpreted the flow of the conversation from whatif's point of view (and mine as well).

The conversation started b/c someone wanted to celebrate Karen Chen and the Shibutanis, all of whom are Asian-American (along with likely champion Nathan).
I am glad that they are being celebrated :yay:.

Someone else chimed in with Madi Chock's name, asking whether she is half Chinese. (Madi being a former U.S. champion. And I believe the person is correct that she does have some Asian blood.)
Then whatif chimed in on the ongoing conversation about Asian-Americans to broaden it to celebrating U.S. medalists, mentioning "all junior and novice medalists" in addition to Mervin.

Yes, I'm sure we all know that Mervin is Canadian. Asian Canadian [without a hyphen ].
I did not say that Mervin is Asian-American. But we all know also that Mervin competes for the U.S.; has one silver and one bronze from U.S. Nationals; and trains part-time in the U.S. Plus he apparently is seeking U.S. citizenship. I hope that he eventually will receive U.S. citizenship, and that then as an American (Canadian-American and Asian-American), he will have a chance to compete at the Olympics for Team USA as Marissa's partner. So I have no problem with whatif wanting to celebrate Mervin in light of the evolving conversation. YMMV.

 

[Mathman]

Here is what Wikipedia has to say about California-Michigander Madison Chock:

Madison La'akea Te-Lan Hall Chock was born in Redondo Beach, California. She attended Novi High School. She is of Chinese-Hawaiian descent on her father's side, and German, English, Irish, French, and Dutch descent on her mother's side. La'akea means "sacred light from heaven" and Te-Lan (特蘭) means "special or unique orchid."

Novi, Michigan, is (apocryphally) reputed to have been named for station number six on the railroad line between Detroit and Ann Arbor.

 

[Poodlepal]

That you implied he's Chinese. And that he's not. And that talking about race so enthusiastically is just a bit ... racist?

Enough already. In America everyone is very conscious of their race. I am a teacher in a school where kids are chosen for their race. In my school we have to keep records on what race is doing well.

Mervin would likely count as Asian and would be treated as such if he applied to a selective college. I didn't see the original post, but celebrating Asian American success would not be racist in the US. If it's different in other countries, good, but I don't see anything bad by US standards

 

[solani]

Enough already. In America everyone is very conscious of their race. I am a teacher in a school where kids are chosen for their race. In my school we have to keep records on what race is doing well.

Mervin would likely count as Asian and would be treated as such if he applied to a selective college. I didn't see the original post, but celebrating Asian American success would not be racist in the US. If it's different in other countries, good, but I don't see anything bad by US standards

I'm intrigued. So, let's assume Asian Amercians have the best academic results at a certain selective college. Does this mean that Asian Americans have better chances to be accepted at that selective college, is this why you keep track? And do those colleges have to publish their data?
I don't think that talking about race is racist but I do think that preferring a certain race is.

 

[andromache]

I'm intrigued. So, let's assume Asian Amercians have the best academic results at a certain selective college. Does this mean that Asian Americans have better chances to be accepted at that selective college, is this why you keep track? And do those colleges have to publish their data?
I don't think that talking about race is racist but I do think that preferring a certain race is.

In education, race-based data is usually kept in order to track and to assist historically underprivileged/underperforming groups. I'm not sure if I know of any schools who give preference to Asian-Americans because of their records of academic success, but I'm sure there are plenty who give preference to black and/or Latino students, since those kids come from groups where there is not a history of academic success.

 

[BlackAxel]

I'm intrigued. So, let's assume Asian Amercians have the best academic results at a certain selective college. Does this mean that Asian Americans have better chances to be accepted at that selective college, is this why you keep track? And do those colleges have to publish their data?
I don't think that talking about race is racist but I do think that preferring a certain race is.

Anyone is more than welcome to correct me if I am wrong ... But I believe mist colleges have some kind of quota. Meaning that they try to meet a certain number when it comes to accepting students from various racial backgrounds. At least in the US, Asians usually have to score above and beyond in order to stand out from the other Asians that they are "competing" with.

 

[andromache]

Also, most Asian-Americans (of Chinese, Japanese, and Korean descent) find themselves at a disadvantage (at least in higher education) because they are over represented in universities. (By overrepresented, I mean that there is a higher percentage of them than there is in the general US population.) So there's this phenomenon of Asian-Americans trying to seem less "stereotypically Asian" on their college applications.

(Asian-Americans of other descent, like Thai, Vietnamese, etc. are not overrepresented at American universities and thus are not facing this odd disadvantage when they apply for college.)

 

[brightphoton]

Also, most Asian-Americans (of Chinese, Japanese, and Korean descent) find themselves at a disadvantage (at least in higher education) because they are over represented in universities. (By overrepresented, I mean that there is a higher percentage of them than there is in the general US population.) So there's this phenomenon of Asian-Americans trying to seem less "stereotypically Asian" on their college applications.

(Asian-Americans of other descent, like Thai, Vietnamese, etc. are not overrepresented at American universities and thus are not facing this odd disadvantage when they apply for college.)

Most private colleges have race quotas, for better or worse for Asian-Americans. The biggest exception are the public universities of California, which are race-blind. This has led to some interesting demographics. If I recall, UC Berkeley was 25% Chinese-American alone, and 49% Asian in general.

I think it's great we have so many Asian-Americans in figure skating. Look at gymnastics. Who do they have? Amy Chow? That was 15 years ago. Since then, they've only had half-Asians. I only watch the sport every 4 years, so I only see the Olympic teams though.

 

[invisiblespiral]

I really want to know how on earth we got from the ladies' freeskate to race in America and college applications...

(I just woke up. :yawn

 

[Mrs. P]

Most private colleges have race quotas, for better or worse for Asian-Americans. The biggest exception are the public universities of California, which are race-blind. This has led to some interesting demographics. If I recall, UC Berkeley was 25% Chinese-American alone, and 49% Asian in general.

I think it's great we have so many Asian-Americans in figure skating. Look at gymnastics. Who do they have? Amy Chow? That was 15 years ago. Since then, they've only had half-Asians. I only watch the sport every 4 years, so I only see the Olympic teams though.

Um, half Asians are still Asian. Should I ask my daughter to disregard her Vietnamese heritage, since she's only just "half?"

Also I think it's just as awesome that the ladies gymnastics team included diversity with two African Americans and a Latina.

I love seeing all the AAPI in skating, but I don't know if I would hold figure skating as a bastion of diversity, giving lack of diversity in other areas.

 

[brightphoton]

But still Caroline isn't going to be ever challenging for World or Olympic titles like Gracie has the last 3 years. She simply lacks the overall skills of the top Ladies. That 120 points she got here Nationals at Worlds would be no more then 112 which isn't competitive.

Yes, yes, we all know Caroline's much discussed skating shortcomings. But she has made massive improvements, even after major hip surgery. It's no longer embarrassing to have Caroline beat you.

 

[jenaj]

Anyone is more than welcome to correct me if I am wrong ... But I believe mist colleges have some kind of quota. Meaning that they try to meet a certain number when it comes to accepting students from various racial backgrounds. At least in the US, Asians usually have to score above and beyond in order to stand out from the other Asians that they are "competing" with.

If they are public colleges, that would be unconstitutional. Private colleges insist that is not the case, but I do think Asians have a more difficult time getting admitted to the most selective colleges. I have no proof of that, however.

 

[Jammers]

Can we get back to the skating please?

 

[brightphoton]

Um, half Asians are still Asian. Should I ask my daughter to disregard her Vietnamese heritage, since she's only just "half?"

That's also a little interesting. If you look at the figure skaters, most of our Asian-American skaters who married have out-married ethnically. Michelle Kwan, Karen Kwan, Kristi Yamaguchi, NNN, Caroline Zhang soon-to-be. If you follow social media, the dating patterns of our younger or non-married Asian-American skaters show a similar trend. A sociologist can probably better interpret that pattern, but I think maybe there should be a better fostering of the "Asian" feeling, pride in the Asian heritage. I know Michelle and Kristi often had to go the "I'm an AMERICAN okay????" route, and I don't know how healthy that was in the long term.

I think Karen Chen is great in that regard. I really like that she showcases and is "out" with her Asian heritage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9Y-bzrkJlU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wspVDyIYW8Q

 

[Poodlepal]

I really want to know how on earth we got from the ladies' freeskate to race in America and college applications...

(I just woke up. :yawn

My fault. I was telling a story about my high school. Sorry. I was just pointing out that in America, it is common for people to have to identify as a certain race and that you have to when you apply for college or certain magnet schools (including my own), and that Mervin Tran would probably be considered Asian, even if he was really from the United States, or Eastern Europe, or Canada, or Viet Nam.

Anyway, back to skating. Here are my worsts.

1. Dress. I hate those dresses that wouldn't exist without illusion fabric. That's you, Ashley (short) and Mirai (long). No way would those breast covering areas hold up on a real strapless dress. Isn't the idea of that tannish fabric supposed to be that you don't know it's there?

2. Choreography. Tessa. I know you get a bonus for doing jumps towards the end, but this girl skated around in circles for what seemed like several minutes before even trying to jump. No wonder she missed the first few. Poor thing. Hopefully, someone like Rohene or Lori can help her, that was a mess.

3. Lipstick. Gracie, short program. She looked like she had just eaten a grape Italian ice.

4. Song. Mirai again, long program. That version was not as good as the ABBA version and was too slow and mopey. I like the words and using familiar songs, but that was a misfire on her part.

 

[Matilda]

Back to skating: Karen was wonderful both in her short and long program and absolutely deserves the gold--and I love Ashley to bits! I'm not too worried about Karen's performance in the Worlds either. Many here seem to forget that she's had terrible boot problems this season, and that affected her performances in the GP series. Those worries seem now to be over, and it seems to me that she's got the needed competitive fire in her belly. Moreover, as many have already pointed out, Ashley is at her best when she comes in as an underdog. I hope Mariah is the third Worlds team member--she has potential and needs the experience.

I agree with Johnny on Gracie: burn the house down and build a new one. She has lost the spark and needs to dig deep inside her to find it again. Continuing with the same coach is clearly not the answer. Some people got angry with Johnny's "Gracie needs to grow up and skate" comment, but based on the podcast and what he said yesterday in the broadcast, Johnny has had several serious, supportive conversations with Gracie. His advise seems to be that she needs a change, and that she needs to decide for herself what that change consists of, and she needs to own it. I think he's right, and I hope Gracie ends her season here, rests a little, puts on a thinking cap, and starts planning her next move.

 

[ice coverage]

That's also a little interesting. If you look at the figure skaters, most of our Asian-American skaters who married have out-married ethnically. Michelle Kwan, Karen Kwan, Kristi Yamaguchi, NNN, Caroline Zhang soon-to-be. If you follow social media, the dating patterns of our younger or non-married Asian-American skaters show a similar trend. A sociologist can probably better interpret that pattern, but I think maybe there should be a better fostering of the "Asian" feeling, pride in the Asian heritage. ...

But dating or marrying a person of a different ethnicity does not mean that a person has less "'Asian' feeling" (whatever the heck that means) or has less pride in one's Asian heritage. IMO. In my strong opinion.

 

[largeman]

Karen Chen is what skating needed. Thank goodness.

Her 3Lutz+3Toe is not underrotated, people. She has worked hard on that technique and is doing it well now. Pay close attention to where the skate is leaving the ice on the Toeloop, she is certainly within 1/4 of a turn. It shouldn't even be question. Unlike other skaters who cheat their takeoffs, Karen executes the jump much more ideally. She goes back into that toepick vault without dragging it around so much and actually LEAPS into the air.

I can't find a video with the close-up replays (sabinfire, where are you?) so I can't opine... but you and I know that unfortunately, regardless of how good and clean her takeoff is on the toeloop, judges only look at the landing. My fear is Karen's 3T will still get < calls at 4CC and worlds, rightly or wrongly.

Her Lutz is even more amazing, she barely pre-rotates at all and still lands completely backwards. NONE of the other top competitive ladies do this on ANY of their jumps.

Alaine Chartrand and Carolina Kostner (though, are they top competitive ladies? )

I love huge and beautiful jumps and that's why I love watching Karen. But she also has first rate spins. Now that is actually a rare combination of strengths that is hard to come by, when you look at the current ladies' field, senior or junior.

 

[brightphoton]

But dating or marrying a person of a different ethnicity does not mean that a person has less "'Asian' feeling" (whatever the heck that means) or has less pride in one's Asian heritage. IMO. In my strong opinion.

It just makes me feel a little sad that nearly every single high level Asian-American skater who married, married someone who was not Asian. I think that in the 80s and 90s, our skaters were made to think they had to downplay their Asian heritage. I remember Michelle and Kristi having to emphatically say that they were American as their teammates. I think that years and years of that have made them far less willing to fully embrace their heritage. For example, the only other Asian in Michelle Kwan's bridesmaids group was .... Karen.

Today, there's so much more representation of Asian Americans in our sport. It's great that our current skaters they don't feel so ethically isolated. I can't imagine Michelle or Kristi doing an exhibition with traditional Asian motifs/props. But Karen feels free to do a skate with those pretty long sleeves. She feels secure that we will think it's cool and fully support her for it.

https://youtu.be/FkY0wFa22xM