2017 U.S. Nationals Championship Ladies FS

[chairmanmao]

Big fat no to that one. With a fair technical caller, Ashley would have so many UR calls, her BV would be way lower - as would her GOE. Add in spins and Ashley wouldn't touch Karen in TES. And I don't even see where she should beat Karen so clearly in PCS - Karen actually has better SS & TR.
IMO, it's an absolute no-brainer that Karen won rightfully, and I'm glad it happened and Ashley wasn't held up because of reputation.

Also, there is absolutely zero resemblence to that russian nationals mess - here the TP was lenient on both, but Maria beat Anna because she had several UR overlooked while the TP was strict with Anna. Big difference. And I'd say the reason is the political influence of their Coaches... and I'll leave it at that, because it's been discussed to death (but I gotta say it again: it was a really dumb political move)

Bottom line: Karen deserved to win, and there is no political reason or ulterior motive needed. She's just really good and delivered.

Honestly I'm still at awe how someone with mediocre spins, UR jumps and very poor skating skills manage to get these kinds of component scores. Being sassy doesn't cut the criteria. She is very fortunate to get scores like this and honestly any complains of underscoring is just greed.

 

[katha]

I'm okay with the result, but I think there's plenty of evidence that Wagner is really valued by international judges and her scores will hold up internationally. None of that is true for comparatively untested skaters like Chen or Bell. It's also a fairytale that Wagner will somehow get one hundred UR calls in international comps, when she skates well her jumps mostly hold up under the scrutiny of international panels as well. I'm always puzzled by fans pretending that Wagner is incapable of scoring high. If she delivers she's absolute world class and a Worlds medal contender, her scores at big international competitions have proven that again and again and again. For years now. Yet the "Boring old Ashley will get dumped for her dumpy skating" gets brought up again and again, year after year. It's puzzling.

 

[[email protected]]

Bottom line: Karen deserved to win, and there is no political reason or ulterior motive needed. She's just really good and delivered.

We are free in our theories about what's going on in Russian and US nationals. Well, we also have theories about international scores. One gentlemen tells us beforehand if there are too many suspiciously slavic-looking names in the panel and among judges as the expectation that the Russians will be overscored. But at least plus-minus we know what skaters are going to receive internationally for cleanish performances. Ashley has had always URs - I don't think that tonight was special. And she has grown to 215 with her URs. Karen has been never near that. And she Urs as well - look at her 3Lz-3T. The second jump is very URd. Just do a pause - clearly more than 180 degrees. Why was not it called? Especially when she already received international carrots for that 3T so that it should have been under surveilance. As for the loop where she also had carrots the footage does not show her exact position at landing.

Anyway, she is a good skater, I always supported her. My theory was that for exactly the same skating Ashley could have receive the same international score and Karen no. And parallels with Sotskova are relevant: US needs the second strong lady same as Russia needs the third.

 

[bekalc]

I think that's why it's valuable to send Gracie to 4CC. Give her one more chance to work out her demons. All reports are that going back to Alex helped her. And her SP was an improvement over basically everything else she's done this year. Maybe a few more weeks will get her back to her old self.



USFS would have to be clear with Gracie that this was her one terrible Nationals performance. It's not a perfect parallel to Ashley's in 2014 b/c Ashley had medaled at both of her GP events and at the GPF. But Gracie's international record, especially in the championship part of seasons, has been very strong since she became a senior. 2013 Worlds- 6th; 2014 Olympics- 4th; 2014 Worlds- 5th; 2015 Worlds- 4th; 2016 Worlds- 4th. Yes, she's underachieved based on her prodigious talent, but she and Ashley are still the best we've got if they're skating well.

I really don't think we'll be able to keep 3 spots if we send Bell, Chen, and Ashley. That may be the best option if Gracie is still in this funk by February. But let's give her more time to prove that she's competition ready for Helsinki before we resort to lighting candles/ wishing/ hoping/ praying for 3 spots. I think Gracie has, based on her career performances, earned another chance to prove to everyone why she should go to Helsinki.

Its not a good parallel at all. You don't make exceptions for a skater who has been skating badly all season long. I agreed with Ashley getting placed on the team. You can argue that was a fluke skate for Ashley.

But you cannot make the argument for Gracie. She's been skating poorly all year. This is not the first time Bell has beaten her this season.

I think you take the two youngsters and Ashley.

 

[cinnamon]

I know it's very easy to say after the fact, but why Mirai wasn't going for 3A. The most important thing is to make the next year's team.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

We are free in our theories about what's going on in Russian and US nationals. Well, we also have theories about international scores. One gentlemen tells us beforehand if there are too many suspiciously slavic-looking names in the panel and among judges as the expectation that the Russians will be overscored. But at least plus-minus we know what skaters are going to receive internationally for cleanish performances. Ashley has had always URs - I don't think that tonight was special. And she has grown to 215 with her URs. Karen has been never near that. And she Urs as well - look at her 3Lz-3T. The second jump is very URd. Just do a pause - clearly more than 180 degrees. Why was not it called? Especially when she already received international carrots for that 3T so that it should have been under surveilance. As for the loop where she also had carrots the footage does not show her exact position at landing.

Anyway, she is a good skater, I always supported her. My theory was that for exactly the same skating Ashley could have receive the same international score and Karen no. And parallels with Sotskova are relevant: US needs the second strong lady same as Russia needs the third.

Yes, Karen had 3Lz3T< in both programs, I'm not disputing that at all. But Ashley had more underrotations ignored, that is the point - at least all 3 back-end triples of her combos (the on in the SP was borderline downgrade at that), the SP 2A, the LP 3Lz. Both benefited from the lenient caller, but Ashley more than Karen.
Yes, Karen would likely not get that score internationally but be hold back because she's a newbie. But that is the unfair part. And at some point, you have to throw reputation out the window and give the youngsters what they deserve to give them a fighting chance. As for Ashleys underrotations: yes, they have been ignored internationally before. But IMO, CoC + Nats here was worse for her than her usual skates. Also, quite a few events this season were called overall stricter than before. And we don't know how worlds is going to be - a lot will depend on a friendly TP vs. carrot farmers. If we get a lenient TP, Ashley will get huge scores and can medal. If we get a really strict one, she is very much in danger of having her usually overlooked URs called, and that would drop her scores quite a lot (she's not the only one in that situation, but still). That is why I think up to a certain point, Ashley is also a coin flip - and it's partly out of her control. Might as well be fair and support and send the 'untested newbies' that delivered here (=Karen).

 

[[email protected]]

Last points are taken and I agree with them.

 

[Jaana]

- Poor Gracie..., she has to make some decisions now... I don´t believe changing coach and choreographer will be of any help for her, the fault is between her own ears.

- congratulations to the champion, a well-deserved win!!!

- also congratulations to Ashley for the silver medal. I was kind of surprised to see so much + GOE for her double axel, which she herself declares as cheated (according to the sp thread)

- congratulations to the bronze medalist, Mariah!

- after successful sp I was not surprised about Mirai´s freeskate at all..., but glad that she at least got 4th place. So many minuses for jumps and no triple axel after all that talk, LOL.

 

[topaz emerald]

Gracie is surrounded by idiots. That's the biggest problem. Frank Carroll is like the emperor who has no clothes. He is clueless. Gracie's problems expose his cluelessness to the world.

This girl was exciting when her jumps were big. Now, she can barely jump and her packaging is a total disaster. She needs Trump to make her great again. LOL.

anyway, in all seriousness, I think her career will fade fast. This was US Nationals and viewed on air by the American audience. Her lips were trembling when she took her opening pose. She is not in top physical form, but there is still time to fix that issue before Olympics. However, what's even worse is that her mind is not in competitive mode. If you really want to win badly, there's no excuse for such a poor performance by someone who's considered the US #1. If she's still struggling to recover from her meltdown after worlds, it's going to be even worse for her after this abysmal showing. At this point, I question whether she's skating for her fans who want so badly for her to succeed, or for herself. As a viewer, she doesn't seem to enjoy competitive skating. Where is her smile throughout her program? Her smile only appears when she takes a bow, as if she's relieved it's over.

 

[topaz emerald]

LOL At her best Mariah is a better skater than Ashley and Gold. I find her LP at Skate America one of the bests this season and the best from the US ladies for that matter. Enough of that dross and wooden walking disaster Gold.

I couldn't agree more....

 

[matcha]

I fell asleep watching the second group lololol but woke up in time to see Karen s l a y. :luv17:

It's really nice to actually see a different US Ladies podium for once (helps that Karen is at the top too )

 

[cinnamon]

- Poor Gracie..., she has to make some decisions now... I don´t believe changing coach and choreographer will be of any help for her, the fault is between her own ears.

- congratulations to the champion, a well-deserved win!!!

- also congratulations to Ashley for the silver medal. I was kind of surprised to see so much + GOE for her double axel, which she herself declares as cheated (according to the sp thread)

- congratulations to the bronze medalist, Mariah!

- after successful sp I was not surprised about Mirai´s freeskate at all..., but glad that she at least got 4th place. So many minuses for jumps and no triple axel after all that talk, LOL.

Gracie should go back to Alex.
Am heart broken for Mirai, but it's good for Karen and Mariah to see that everyone has a chance to go to the big stage by doing well.

 

[Jammers]

Just woke up and watched the final group of Ladies and wow Karen hung on and won. Ashley must be kicking herself over that singled jump that cost her a 4th title. So who goes to Worlds? I can't see anyone but the top 3.

 

[katymay]

I just wish Tara would stop spouting non-sense like Gracie is one of the best technician ever.
Maybe like best ever in Illinois where she came from.

Her jumps are tiny in the past few years. Most jumps barely clear the ice.
Her 3lutz-3toe is no where near the best. She has a definitive lip.

I guess Tara doesn't know technique that well to make stupid statement like that. Hello, there are girls out there who can do all of those jumps with much better technique.

I think she is rememberin the Gracie of old- the girl with the HUGE easy jumps.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Karen Chen is what skating needed. Thank goodness.

Her 3Lutz+3Toe is not underrotated, people. She has worked hard on that technique and is doing it well now. Pay close attention to where the skate is leaving the ice on the Toeloop, she is certainly within 1/4 of a turn. It shouldn't even be question. Unlike other skaters who cheat their takeoffs, Karen executes the jump much more ideally. She goes back into that toepick vault without dragging it around so much and actually LEAPS into the air. Her Lutz is even more amazing, she barely pre-rotates at all and still lands completely backwards. NONE of the other top competitive ladies do this on ANY of their jumps. Karen is outjumping everyone on Lutz and Flip, and now the overall combo with Toeloop too. This powerful technique of Karen's does cause her Toeloop jump landing to appear rougher, the skate comes down and swings around quickly, making it look more questionable perhaps. But it isn't, she's doing it right. What you're seeing on the landing is the result of the inertia she generated in the jumps. It's beautiful. She could now strive to land more perfectly on the second jump, ala Yu-Na Kim, but this is still great.

The judging of jumps in this scoring system needs to be overhauled. If you ask Medvedeva to try and do this, she would likely splat. She would never even get to the second part of the jump combo, because she is NOT capable of jumping a Lutz this!!

---

Beyond that, what I cared about next most in this competition was Gracie Gold's LP. It has so much potential to be a masterpiece, so many beautiful details in there. I love how they had her try and finish off that first spin with an attitude leg position. Not worth any points in particular with the way judging is these days, but these are the things that should be getting points in the components and as considerations for GOE. I'm not sure if Gracie is the right skater for this program, but certainly that ending suits her perfectly. If only she was able to deliver the whole program. Unfortunately we will probably never see it fulfilled.

It was also very nice to see Caroline Zhang make such a good comeback (again!). 5th place is a huge accomplishment for her. I love how 3 out of 4 of the top ladies from the 2007/2008 U.S. skating era placed so well here! 9 years later and they are all still at it! Hard to believe that much time has passed already, my word.

 

[katymay]

Karen vs. Ashely

To be fair, Karen is faster and has better edge than Ashely. She also has much better spins than Ashely. Except for the 3t, her other jumps have better quality than Ashley. I thought she has been underscored in the second mark, mostly because she is not consistent.

Ashely's advantage is her polished style. She looks very cautious today and looks slower than usual, especially her spins.

Agree

 

[demarinis5]

Congrats to Karen Chen well deserved winner! Her technique is first rate and man did she sell both of
her programs, loved it! Congrats to Ashley for winning Silver and Mariah for taking the Bronze! Very nice Ladies Podium!

Shout out to Caroline for her fifth place finish, good for her!

Mirai:sad21:

 

[Jammers]

Gracie needs to find out why she is even skating anymore. When you are getting beat by Caroline Zhang that should be a wake up call.

 

[brightphoton]

Gracie needs to find out why she is even skating anymore. When you are getting beat by Caroline Zhang that should be a wake up call.

But this isn't the Caroline Zhang who was slowly descending into obscurity and having troubles with her coach. This is a new Caroline, with a new hip and new coach, and a supportive fiance!

 

[Jammers]

But this isn't the Caroline Zhang who was slowly descending into obscurity and having troubles with her coach. This is a new Caroline, with a new hip and new coach, and a supportive fiance!

But still Caroline isn't going to be ever challenging for World or Olympic titles like Gracie has the last 3 years. She simply lacks the overall skills of the top Ladies. That 120 points she got here Nationals at Worlds would be no more then 112 which isn't competitive.