2017 U.S. Nationals Championship Ladies FS

[chuckm]

Back to skating: Karen was wonderful both in her short and long program and absolutely deserves the gold--and I love Ashley to bits! I'm not too worried about Karen's performance in the Worlds either. Many here seem to forget that she's had terrible boot problems this season, and that affected her performances in the GP series.

It was last season that Karen had the boot problems, not this season. But she had better GP results then (two 5th places) than she did this season (a 6th and a 7th).

I agree with Johnny on Gracie: burn the house down and build a new one. She has lost the spark and needs to dig deep inside her to find it again. Continuing with the same coach is clearly not the answer. Some people got angry with Johnny's "Gracie needs to grow up and skate" comment, but based on the podcast and what he said yesterday in the broadcast, Johnny has had several serious, supportive conversations with Gracie. His advise seems to be that she needs a change, and that she needs to decide for herself what that change consists of, and she needs to own it. I think he's right, and I hope Gracie ends her season here, rests a little, puts on a thinking cap, and starts planning her next move.

Everyone except her coaches fail to recognize that Gracie in is in the grips of a deep depression. Telling her to "get over it" or "grow up and skate" will not work. The reason why Gracie keeps saying that she is one of the best skaters in the world is because that is what her coaches have been saying to her to counteract her image of herself as an abject failure. She needs to keep that positive self image in mind so that she can work towards getting herself back to the physical condition to prove that she is that top skater.

Unfortunately, she does read the message boards and some of the harsh messages in here saying she is done and should go away can't help at all. I don't agree with Tara that Gracie is a great technician, but I do think Gracie is one of the most talented skaters I have ever seen, and I hope she will continue to hone her talent and thrill us for years to come.

 

[Meoima]

I love Karen, she is so lovely. That spiral is to die for. I love her 3lz, such spring she has. I hope she will fix her 3-3. One more thing... to improve her consistency.
I love Ashley's LP. But her previous dress is better.
Sad fro Gracie.

 

[zschultz1986]

Everyone except her coaches fail to recognize that Gracie in is in the grips of a deep depression. Telling her to "get over it" or "grow up and skate" will not work. The reason why Gracie keeps saying that she is one of the best skaters in the world is because that is what her coaches have been saying to her to counteract her image of herself as an abject failure. She needs to keep that positive self image in mind so that she can work towards getting herself back to the physical condition to prove that she is that top skater.

Unfortunately, she does read the message boards and some of the harsh messages in here saying she is done and should go away can't help at all. I don't agree with Tara that Gracie is a great technician, but I do think Gracie is one of the most talented skaters I have ever seen, and I hope she will continue to hone her talent and thrill us for years to come.

I would agree with this assessment. People need to learn to be critical without being harsh or saying nasty things.

Gracie has had a bad year, but to say she's done is to disregard her immense talent. I think she needs to reassess everything about her situation in the off-season and change the things that aren't working for her, and only she can say who and what those things are.

 

[noskates]

I agree with Johnny - but wish he hadn't said what he did on national television. It's sort of demeaning to Gracie. But I do think she needs a change. If nothing else - get someone else to choreograph her programs. Would love to see what Rohene Ward would do with her - or Jeffrey Buttle, or even Stephan Lambiel. Lori has grown stale and there just isn't any pizazz to Gracie's skating right now. She's still beautiful on the ice and I do agree that she's the most talented the USA has to offer but none of that will count if she can't get her head on straight. I feel so sorry for her going through these struggles in the public eye where everybody is a coach and everybody knows what's best for her. She does need to take stock and decide how she wants to proceed in the future.

This might be shallow but in my opinion she had the most gorgeous dress of any competitor at Nationals. (okay, I did say it was shallow) Trying to find something positivel

 

[luckyguy]

What can US Junior ladies expect at Junior Worlds? It is especially important for thenext JGP season (7 or 14 spots).

 

[zschultz1986]

This might be shallow but in my opinion she had the most gorgeous dress of any competitor at Nationals. (okay, I did say it was shallow) Trying to find something positivel

That dress is AMAZING in person. I saw it at Skate America here in Chicago. She was like disco ball, she was so sparkly.

 

[Skater Boy]

I agree with Johnny - but wish he hadn't said what he did on national television. It's sort of demeaning to Gracie. But I do think she needs a change. If nothing else - get someone else to choreograph her programs. Would love to see what Rohene Ward would do with her - or Jeffrey Buttle, or even Stephan Lambiel. Lori has grown stale and there just isn't any pizazz to Gracie's skating right now. She's still beautiful on the ice and I do agree that she's the most talented the USA has to offer but none of that will count if she can't get her head on straight. I feel so sorry for her going through these struggles in the public eye where everybody is a coach and everybody knows what's best for her. She does need to take stock and decide how she wants to proceed in the future.

This might be shallow but in my opinion she had the most gorgeous dress of any competitor at Nationals. (okay, I did say it was shallow) Trying to find something positivel

Sometimes it is hard to take Rohene Ward as the "saviour" because so much emphasis on these threads is about his appearance- I really don't know much about him and my recollection was that he was rather flamboyant in many ways - dress and personality. Sometimes people seemd to "confuse" or "mix" flamboyancy as the answer to good change - but regardless cutting Gracie's hair, changing coaches, choreographers - ultimately it is up to her. She is a beautiful person, skater and has huge potential skating wise. I hope she realizes though there is more to life than skating

 

[noidont]

It just makes me feel a little sad that nearly every single high level Asian-American skater who married, married someone who was not Asian. I think that in the 80s and 90s, our skaters were made to think they had to downplay their Asian heritage. I remember Michelle and Kristi having to emphatically say that they were American as their teammates. I think that years and years of that have made them far less willing to fully embrace their heritage. For example, the only other Asian in Michelle Kwan's bridesmaids group was .... Karen.

Today, there's so much more representation of Asian Americans in our sport. It's great that our current skaters they don't feel so ethically isolated. I can't imagine Michelle or Kristi doing an exhibition with traditional Asian motifs/props. But Karen feels free to do a skate with those pretty long sleeves. She feels secure that we will think it's cool and fully support her for it.

https://youtu.be/FkY0wFa22xM

Michelle and whoever else should have friends she personally likes, not based on race. White people having Asian friends - diversity. Asian people having white friends - not being proud of their heritage? What?
Anyway, I would bet money on Karen skating to something Asian next season.

 

[Skater Boy]

As for the selection to the worlds. Karen and Ashley seem obvious. I know most posters here say Bell but I do have a soft spot for Mirai. I know they have changed the criteria - skating seems to like that lol - but I do feel for her missing the olympics - though last year she did get "lucky" or had a surprise chance to go to worlds when Polina withdrew.

If Ashley doesn't go to 4CCs (one assumes Chen will want to go). Bell and Nagasu could have a skate off. I mean if you sort of use the same logic, I appreciate the rules and such aren't the same as 2014 Mirai did place 10th at worlds and was it second at 4ccs? I am not sure of course trying to make amend for a past perhaps injustice is right to take it out on Bell so to speak.

Mirai had her chance to take the bronze but maybe like her song - the Winner Takes it All????? Bell was the winner.

As for Gracie, I don't think she is a factor. She "Maoed" out. Like Mao they are too far down the list and really need to take a look at their life and skating and what they want. I agree it isn't over for Gracie necessarily. It really is up to her. Now in some countries placing 6th she is off the national team. It is a bit different in the US but I wonder if she will be on the B team / funding?

It is possible Gracie wins it all next year or peaks at the olympics. I am kind of hoping she doesn't just do it at the olympics - especially gold only because I think of consistent skaters like Michelle Kwan who never got gold (though I guess in 98 the judges could have given it to her if they wanted even if they ranked Tara first technically Kwan could win artistically (tie breaker). What is fair is in the eye of the beholder or as mom says - its fair when you get what you want lol. Maybe she will pull a Liz Manley - she was a skater with great potential and constantly cracked under pressure and then won silver at the Olympics.

I would be curious to see what people thought between the top three Americans and the top three Canadians. Both nations were very generous score wise. And I think may have been just as or more generous than the Russian judges at their nationals. Osmond had TWO falls and still scored well over 130. Mind you Gracie was a mess and was almost at 115. I was a bit surprised the judges didn't give the gold to Ashley not that Chen didn't deserve it. Chen gave two s olid performances and good for her. If she does well at 4CCs now as national champ that will give her confidence to win three spots for the US. however, after seeing some of the Canadians I think they could potentially get into the mix and not on purposely but perhaps cause some shifts in the rankings. I agree Ashley now is the top pcer if on her game but if she makes mistakes and if Osmond or Daleman are clean they might surprise the Americans. In the past I would say no. 6 or 7 american would beat the top Canadian - but Osmond in particular if she gets cleaner in the lp and the judges reward her with deserved higher pcs - she actually reminds me of Rochette in that they are actually wonderful pc skaters with intricate well designed programs, she could really put a wrench into many skaters lives lol. Her lp has issues but her sp is maybe the best even not backloaded.

 

[FlattFan]

I think she is rememberin the Gracie of old- the girl with the HUGE easy jumps.

She also said Gracie can do 3F in her sleep. Do you think she meant Gracie dreams she does 3F easily all the time?

 

[pjskater]

If j weir said on tv that Gracie needs to grow up then he should be removed from broadcasting. To tell someone who has admitted to being in a depression to grow up or get over it is irresponsible and dangerous. And yes in an article her coach has stated she has been very depressed, so don't say that it's over dramatic. She needs support, and people around her who understand. I hope she has that.

 

[jimini]

If j weir said on tv that Gracie needs to grow up then he should be removed from broadcasting. To tell someone who has admitted to being in a depression to grow up or get over it is irresponsible and dangerous. And yes in an article her coach has stated she has been very depressed, so don't say that it's over dramatic. She needs support, and people around her who understand. I hope she has that.

It is frustrating to hear this comment from a skater who had his own battles with confidence and many seasons of problematic competitions. You would think he would have some empathy for talented skaters who are clearly experiencing complex problems.

 

[noskates]

I only mentioned Rohene because he's sort of the antithesis of Lori Nichols. He tries new music, his choreo is innovative and I think he would be good for Gracie. I could care less how he looks or how flamboyant he is or if he has a weird haircut. That doesn't diminish the fact that he's a very talented choreographer and fresh! Lori has been choreographing the same programs, almost the same music, etc. since before Michelle Kwan. She has done some beautiful work in the past but it just would be nice to see something new for Gracie.

As for what Johnny said - I dont' think he was near as negative as Tara (bigmouthconstantblabbering) has been during this competition. Was it ill-advised? Maybe. But everyone on this board has speculated what's wrong with Gracie, what she needs to do (me included) etc. etc. what her coaches have said to her (how the heck would YOU know what her coaches have said to her) and on and on ad finitum. It does fall back on Gracie. She's not a teenager. She's a young woman who hopefully knows her own mind. As for bias - there are clearly some people in this thread that are horribly biased and more outspoken than Johnny has ever been on the air. Remember that line from Tootsie? "Look in the mirror and see what a bad baby looks like!"

 

[andromache]

Gracie should move to Michigan, get in on Zoueva's new singles program. Zoueva strikes me as nurturing but ruthless, and Gracie needs both. She needs nurtured but she also needs someone who is going to toughen her up. Consult with Alex on the side for jumps.

Choreography and packaging is all just secondary at this point. But dramatic hair cuts/dyes do have an incredible mental impact, especially after a dramatic breakup. Burn down the house and build it back up, make it new and better.

The definition of insanity according to Einstein is doing the same thing over and over again while expecting something new to happen. At this point especially - how much worse can things get? It's not like leaving Frank will make them any worse.

My second choice for Gracie is whoever coaches Grant and Caroline. Caroline's jump technique has never been better and she's psychologically in a great place. Part of that has to be due to coaching, right?

 

[bytheriver]

My second choice for Gracie is whoever coaches Grant and Caroline. Caroline's jump technique has never been better and she's psychologically in a great place. Part of that has to be due to coaching, right?

Caroline's coach is Peter Oppegard, 1988 bronze medalist in pairs and brother-in-law of Kween Kwan. He is based in SoCal, so a good choice there. Only downside would be losing the hardcore politicking that Carroll could bring in an Olympic year. Also potentially suffering some negative emotional affects at losing her current team support system. Even when your coaching team isn't the strongest and it would technically be better for you to leave them, you get attached and making that move is a real adjustment. Frank may not come off as super nurturing to most of you, but I'm sure he means something to Gracie.

Further, I think it's important that she make the decision about whether or not she still wants to compete at all. I know this sounds crazy to a lot of people (quitting before an Olympic year), but I was a senior elite international gymnast way back in the day and quit the year before the Olympics. My family and friends didn't understand at the time (and probably still don't, honestly), but it was the best thing in the world for me at the time because I just wasn't happy anymore. Life's too short.

 

[matscol]

Bell and Nagasu could have a skate off.

I feel like they did, last night. Mirai had a fair chance but didn't grab it. Mariah earned the spot (especially as she's got the #1 US ladies FS of the season in her pocket; there's no "she can't score internationally" argument to be made).

I'm not knocking Mirai, I've seen my own kid in that same spot, skating last with a chance, and getting a similar result to Mirai's. It happens. But when it does, you take the miss and move on.

 

[bekalc]

I don't see the point of a skate off. Bell did well at her one GP event. So this isn't a fluke. They have to give youngsters opportunities when they earn them. I support the idea of one bad competition not being the be end and end all. But I think your other competitions need to be pretty darn/steller amazing for Nationals not to matter.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I'm so pumped for Mariah! I haven't had the chance to see any footage yet due to extended travels but I'm looking forward to catching up. Heck... maybe even more so to looking forward at some fresh faces at World's this year :yes:

 

[pjskater]

I don't know noskates what the meaning of your last statement is. But my point is that these negative statements about her are inappropriate if you know anything about depression. In this country we take it much too lightly and feel people should just pick themselves up. Do some research on depression to see the incredible pain someone goes through and that's someone who isn't on display. What she has shown is incredible strength to keep going this season, and THAT should be recognized. she deserves respect for that.

 

[bekalc]

I don't know noskates what the meaning of your last statement is. But my point is that these negative statements about her are inappropriate if you know anything about depression. In this country we take it much too lightly and feel people should just pick themselves up. Do some research on depression to see the incredible pain someone goes through and that's someone who isn't on display. What she has shown is incredible strength to keep going this season, and THAT should be recognized. she deserves respect for that.

I haven't heard Johnny's statement, but maybe he's just trying to say that its time for Gold to take control of her own skating. Depression or not, skating is still her job. And her preparation this season IS on Gold.

If she's not mentally prepared to skate or handle feedback from bad skates maybe she shouldn't be skating?

So I think its more than fair to say things like her having control of her skating as a good idea. I am frankly not convinced that she does have control of her skating and I don't think its working with Frank.

I am not a clinical psychologist but maybe a change of scenery would help.

I think Gracie still has all that talent and she's not done. But I do think that maybe a change would help.