2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating | Page 64 | Golden Skate

2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

My issue is with the USFS selection process which tends to favor the artistic types over technicians. But on the international level, technicians tend to have the edge. USFS also tends to favor experience at the cost of newbies.

I agree that the selection process works as you described, but the USFSA does over inflate scores of newbies. Ashley got higher PCS scores for her SP and LP at last year's Worlds than she did at this year's Nationals, despite very similar execution. Karen's Nationals LP earned PCS scores above what Satoko, Anna, and Elena earned at Worlds, so I do think the USFSA is open to push young talent.
 
I will get hate for this but I think Jason is the most overrated US skater today. I prefer Josh, Vincent and Nathan and if we're talking internationally, Shoma is better. But it is what it is and everyone's tastes are different I guess.
 
I will get hate for this but I think Jason is the most overrated US skater today. I prefer Josh, Vincent and Nathan and if we're talking internationally, Shoma is better. But it is what it is and everyone's tastes are different I guess.

You're not alone in your thinking -- it's sprinkled throughout the last 50 pages. :) And, yes, everyone have their own preferences.

You're actually more likely to get affirmation than hate. Jason's not every one's cup of tea and that's fine.

I'm just thankful the U.S. men's field is such that people can find someone they like. That's not the case with every country.

Andromache cheers for the Cleveland Cavs, I cheer for the Golden State Warriors. As far as I know, we still co-exist when we talk about basketball, LOL.

By the way, if you haven't already received this: Welcome to Golden Skate! Post often and post long (even -- or especially?! -- your opinions differ from others. :laugh:)!
 
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Andromache cheers for the Cleveland Cavs, I cheer for the Golden State Warriors. As far as I know, we still co-exist when we talk about basketball, LOL.

Just wait until the finals this year ;).

Re: US men and a "multi-quad era" - I'm in the "multi-quad era is only just starting" camp. Tim Goebel was an magnificent exception, but one skater is not enough to create an era unless that skater is so dominant as to have their own era (like Michelle Kwan :)). Then a drought. Then Max was the precursor, the pioneer, who had the jumps but was/is perceived as lacking other qualities to make him a "complete" skater (Tim Goebel was the same way). Now we have young talent (17 and younger, younger than Max was when he won his US championship) who not only have or are in the process of acquiring multiple quads, but have the time and show potential for being accepted by the judges as artists, as well. Nathan has excellent skating skills, and when he tries (like in his SP) he brings great grace and presence to the ice, with very balletic interpretation. The amount of progress he has made over the course of a season in his skating and choreography and interpretation has been excellent (whereas Max and Tim both struggled to show dramatic progress in those areas, though they undoubtedly worked hard and it showed.)

Juniors like Vincent and others haven't shown Nathan's knack for presentation yet, but they're young and time is on their side, though there is also the possibility of stagnation due to growth or injury (see: Nam Nguyen - while he's grown up, his actual skating and performance quality have gone NOWHERE, have not matured, because he's been so focused on recovering those lost jumps).
 
Just wait until the finals this year ;).

Re: US men and a "multi-quad era" - I'm in the "multi-quad era is only just starting" camp. Tim Goebel was an magnificent exception, but one skater is not enough to create an era unless that skater is so dominant as to have their own era (like Michelle Kwan :)). Then a drought. Then Max was the precursor, the pioneer, who had the jumps but was/is perceived as lacking other qualities to make him a "complete" skater (Tim Goebel was the same way). Now we have young talent (17 and younger, younger than Max was when he won his US championship) who not only have or are in the process of acquiring multiple quads, but have the time and show potential for being accepted by the judges as artists, as well. Nathan has excellent skating skills, and when he tries (like in his SP) he brings great grace and presence to the ice, with very balletic interpretation. The amount of progress he has made over the course of a season in his skating and choreography and interpretation has been excellent (whereas Max and Tim both struggled to show dramatic progress in those areas, though they undoubtedly worked hard and it showed.)

Juniors like Vincent and others haven't shown Nathan's knack for presentation yet, but they're young and time is on their side, though there is also the possibility of stagnation due to growth or injury (see: Nam Nguyen - while he's grown up, his actual skating and performance quality have gone NOWHERE, have not matured, because he's been so focused on recovering those lost jumps).

Ha, looking forward to it! I went crazy and agreed to watch the Golden State Warriors/Oklahoma City Thunder game with my two OKC crazed co-workers on March 20. It will be ample preparation for the intensity of worlds, LOL.

I do think Max let all the "hockey player" talk get to him when he should have been like "Whatever" and just figured out his path. Fans are fickle and so are judges, so why not just do what it takes to make them take notice? I think every skater should just stick to whatever strategy that works for them.

And honestly, given the TES push -- Max would be ahead just hitting those 4S (and 4T) consistently. You can't be refused if you rack up 95-100 (or more) TES on a consistent basis. Max has only hit 90+ three times internationally -- at 2013/2015 Skate America and 2016 Worlds. (at 2013 4CC his TES was 89.66, so close enough there).
 
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Well, I can't go a whole day without contributing something to this post, can I? Like potato chips...

I am going to get pushback for this, but here goes (and since when has that ever stopped me:biggrin:)

Believe it or not, I am not the World's biggest Jason uber. I *am* the World's biggest Toller uber. I measure skaters against that standard: how many "Tollers" does that skater earn? I drifted away from watching skating consistently at the tail end of nineties, beginning of 2000's. I saw no Tollers.

There I was, one January, in 2014, just skimming the TV. Skating, what the heck. And then, a kid skating, who I had never heard of or ever seen before, earning five Tollers. I thought, I need to know more..... and because of that kid, I learned all about the other American men and here I am wasting time on skating boards:laugh:

When he is *on*, Jason is five (out of five) Tollers. That is a rare gift and something you don't "learn". I am sorry, Nathan Chen on his best day with his SP this year, is maybe two Tollers. Maybe. He doesn't need more than two Tollers with all his jumps, but I am not going to pretend or accept that he has more just because he can jump.

And for those who say, well Nathan is young, and can learn, well I hope so. But another youngster, Deniss V. is four Tollers, verging on five. Deniss has the gift.

Vincent Zhou: no Tollers yet.

Maybe I'm living in the past. Hey, I'm married to a classics professor, it comes naturally.:laugh: but despite being a red blooded American, medals, medals, medals, records, records, records are not my thing. Not at the expense of "Tollers"
 
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All the talk about Max... 😢😥😭

It's too soon, it's too painful. I just can't.

:ghug: Max will make it all right. He will. I know he will. The judges won't, but he will.

Then Max was the precursor, the pioneer, who had the jumps but was/is perceived as lacking other qualities to make him a "complete" skater (Tim Goebel was the same way). Now we have young talent (17 and younger, younger than Max was when he won his US championship) who not only have or are in the process of acquiring multiple quads, but have the time and show potential for being accepted by the judges as artists, as well.

But why? If Max came out with an FS as empty as Chen's he would be roasted alive. But no, because it's precious frigging Chen, it gets 91 PCS at Nationals, but Max never got any help from the judges, never. Max has people cheering that he fell, people who were hoping for him to fail, people who were happy because everyone knows that result in 2016 was an absolute travesty but people don't ACTUALLY care because yay it was arteeste Adam and it was only Max who cares? He never gets any credit for the work he does, and now these kids start doing multiple quads and get away with all the crap he never could and it's just. so. wrong.

I do think Max let all the "hockey player" talk get to him when he should have been like "Whatever" and just figured out his path. Fans are fickle and so are judges, so why not just do what it takes to make them take notice? I think every skater should just stick to whatever strategy that works for them.

How could he not when it was all he ever heard? When no-one was prepared to give him credit? When people acted like his National title was the end of the world but hey, Chen can stroke-stroke-jump and it's something wondrous!

I want to like Chen and Zhou but the blatant double standard and the total lack of problem that anyone has with that double-standard is killing me.
 
How could he not when it was all he ever heard? When no-one was prepared to give him credit? When people acted like his National title was the end of the world but hey, Chen can stroke-stroke-jump and it's something wondrous!

I want to like Chen and Zhou but the blatant double standard and the total lack of problem that anyone has with that double-standard is killing me.

I just think it's hard to make much of a case as a "multi-quad" skater when the TES isn't always at 90+ but for a handful of times in the last five years. I think Nathan can stand to improve in a lot of ways -- but he's had 95+ TES during every competition but one (and at 94.59 at TdF, I guess you can round up) this season and 110+ in the last three competitions (US Nationals, 4CC, GPF). It' s just math.

I don't fault Nathan for finding a way to rack up points via jumps. You can complain he gets inflated GOE or that the jumps aren't pretty or he falls on some of them, but that's the system. You can't command the system to your will, you have to hack it and Nathan has learned to hack it to his favor.

As for Vincent, I think the favoritism toward him isn't a mark against Max, but Jason, honestly.
 
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Well, I can't go a whole day without contributing something to this post, can I? Like potato chips...

Vincent Chen: no Tollers yet. ...

But what about Vincent Zhou? ;) :ghug:
(Sorry, that potato chip was too tempting to resist. :hopelessness:)

ETA: I see now that you already made a correction.​

To be serious, I think Jason would be honored to know that you give him five Tollers :cool:. But I think he would like to maximize his official scores as well.


As for Max, I hope that he has no regrets. At the same time that I am pleased to take an interest in Nathan and Vincent as this season's top two, Max always touches my heart :luv17: :sad4: :luv17: with his determination to grow and his desire to keep showing new sides of himself.
 
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Well I have to weigh in a bit here and make some general responses. When I watch Patrick Chan (yes I know he's not a US skater but...) and Jason I am mesmerized. They are so lyrical on the ice as Roger Federer is on grass. And Nathan is electrifying when he does his quadoholic thing. This is after all a sport and the jumps most exemplify that. I think young master Chen has really improved a lot in the PCS area in the past year though his SP is more reflective of that than his LP. I studied ballet for several years and can tell that Nathan understands how to use his arms and his head and his line has improved. Vincent still seems like a junior skater to me. What has happened to Max makes me sad. First of all, he comes across as such a good sport and such an entirely sweet man. I detect no ego is his attitude. He has lost confidence and seems a little lost in general. I wish he would just go back to the West Side Story kind of program. I think if he could find programs that he feels more organically comfortable with he would regain that confident and the jumps. I'm not a skater but from what I can detect he has not lost his technical prowess.
 
Well I have to weigh in a bit here and make some general responses. When I watch Patrick Chan (yes I know he's not a US skater but...) and Jason I am mesmerized. They are so lyrical on the ice as Roger Federer is on grass.

I like the comparison. I love Roger Federer. Also like Roger, Jason's a great sport too. :)

(Though, this is not me saying that Jason has reached Roger's GOAT status. Hope that's clear...)

Speaking of Jason, his last 4CC blog entry is up: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/02/13/215863584/the-journey-begins-brown-blogs-from-south-korea

.. while Nathan [Chen] killed it by landing five quads in his free skate to win the overall event.

Doesn't sound like someone who is against quads to me. :laugh:
 
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I like the comparison. I love Roger Federer. Also like Roger, Jason's a great sport too. :)

Speaking of Jason, his last 4CC blog entry is up: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/02/13/215863584/the-journey-begins-brown-blogs-from-south-korea



Doesn't sound like someone who is against quads to me. :laugh:

Thanks for the Jason blog update. Yes I realize he is also a sweetheart and does not detract from his competitors accomplishments and gets that the quads are valuable. I know many are bemoaning the US men's prospects of regaining three spots for next year. I absolutely think Nathan and Jason will make it happen. They (especially Jason) will rise to the occasion and bring it. The women, uh, well I'm not so sure of but I am not writing them off (at least when I am not in one of my cynical moods).
 
:ghug: Max will make it all right. He will. I know he will. The judges won't, but he will.



But why? If Max came out with an FS as empty as Chen's he would be roasted alive. But no, because it's precious frigging Chen, it gets 91 PCS at Nationals, but Max never got any help from the judges, never. Max has people cheering that he fell, people who were hoping for him to fail, people who were happy because everyone knows that result in 2016 was an absolute travesty but people don't ACTUALLY care because yay it was arteeste Adam and it was only Max who cares? He never gets any credit for the work he does, and now these kids start doing multiple quads and get away with all the crap he never could and it's just. so. wrong.



How could he not when it was all he ever heard? When no-one was prepared to give him credit? When people acted like his National title was the end of the world but hey, Chen can stroke-stroke-jump and it's something wondrous!

I want to like Chen and Zhou but the blatant double standard and the total lack of problem that anyone has with that double-standard is killing me.

Nationals was just so rough on me between Gracie and Max I was a wreck.

I actually love Chen and Zhou, I have always been a fan of the gutsy jumpers. I also do think Chen is rapidly improving in artistry. That being said Max is and will aways be a favorite of mine and someone that I just will always enjoy watching. I have always loved that Max was going for things others were not, it was always awesome to see. He also was working so hard to play catch up to those with better skating skills and last year he rightfully should have won. I agree there is a double standard, and the way people have treated Max is just horrendous.

On another note I was overjoyed he was skating to the Lion King this year as it was my favorite film as a kid. It's sad how things turned out.
 
In all this discussion, no one has mentioned my favorite skater - Adam. I can't wait for him to recover and get back on the ice.

His skating has always "clicked" for me!
 
In all this discussion, no one has mentioned my favorite skater - Adam. I can't wait for him to recover and get back on the ice.

His skating has always "clicked" for me!

I very much like Adam. He has risen to "Five Tollers" with the Beatles at Worlds and (my very favorite Adam program, and no one agrees with me:() Liszt at Finlandia in 2014. I loooved the Liszt program. Not as many five Tollers as Jason, but who does?:laugh:

I *really* can't get into the Broken Bird, and I'm afraid he'll keep it for next year. That would be a bummer. But heaven knows, it beats that godawful monstrosity of "music" for his LP he began the season with. He does learn!:agree:
 
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Picture this last group at Nationals next year:

Max, Joshua, Jason, Adam, Nathan, Vincent (in no particular order).

Can you imagine? Can you imagine if they all skated perfectly? We would all die.
 
Picture this last group at Nationals next year:

Max, Joshua, Jason, Adam, Nathan, Vincent (in no particular order).

Can you imagine? Can you imagine if they all skated perfectly? We would all die.

I would love that. Except one would have to go to make room for Andrew Torgeshev, who I predict will be a beast in a year's time.
 
The following skaters have finished in the top six previously (in order of number of top six finishes) during this Olympic cycle (3 Us Nationals; in order of highest placement, then number of top six finishes):
Adam (2 1st, 2nd)
Nathan (2 1st, 3rd)
Jason (2 1st, 3rd)
Max (2 2nd, 4th)
Vincent (1 2nd)
Josh (1 3rd)
Grant (2 4th, 4th)
Ross (3 5th, 5th, 6th)
Jeremy (1 5th-- keeping him on the list until he says officially he's not coming back in' 18)
Alexander (2 6th, 6th)

And no not accounting that those just outside the top six but in the top 10 like Andrew T and Tim D. Plus Alexei rising from juniors...

It's going to be brutal.
 
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