2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[TontoK]

But it does not mean that skaters who do not or cannot push the sport in ways other than jumps or throws are somehow lesser than those who are pushing it in that way.

Karne, can you clarify please?

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.

Currently, I favor the daring young men with their quad jumps, although I reserve the right to switch horses tomorrow.

Even so, I think an objective person has to acknowledge that others can push the sport in other areas, too.

Nothing about greater or lesser, although true champions, the ones we'll remember in 20 years, will leave a mark on the sport through their innovations.

 

[concorde]

Each type of skaters does push the sport in different ways and both types are really needed for the sport to evolve.

The technicians through jumps; the artists through their overall presentations skills which encompasses the PCS skills. Not exactly sure where spins go - probably more in the artists category.

If you go back and watch the old 1960s or older vidoes, you will see what you mean.

I guess I am a "geezer" since I remember that groundbreaking T&D in real time on TV. At the time, there was so many questions on how it should be scored when it came to time length.

 

[ice coverage]

Good luck to Vincent and Alex in the FS in Taipei :yay:.

And many hugs to Torgashev .

Bittersweet to read a mini-interview with Andrew that was published today, but conducted before Junior Worlds.

https://medium.com/@JacksonUltima/j...s-ft-andrew-torgashev-171c51cb301c#.7qldrbku2​

I'm scratching my head over this sentence from Andrew:

... After Junior Worlds, I am going to go home, get completely healthy and learn all my quads.​

I know he was out all last season b/c of injury ... but seems to be an implication that he was competing this season without being "completely" healthy? :sad4:
[Again, the interview obviously was conducted before Junior Worlds, so he was not making excuses for anything.]
Sigh. Another round of hugs for Andrew .

Anyway, I believe the link to Andrew's long interview from last week is already elsewhere on GS, but I will add it to this thread.

http://figureskatersonline.com/news/2017/03/06/qa-with-andrew-torgashev/ (Mar 6)​

I know that all elite skaters work incredibly hard, but my mind boggles every time I read a schedule like Andrew's .

FSO: How do you balance high school and skating? What’s a typical day like?
AT: Well, I wake up around 4:45 a.m., then eat breakfast and head over to the rink to do an hour of choreography and skating skills from 6:30 a.m. – 7:30 a.m. After that, I go to school from 8:30 a.m. – 12:00 p.m. and then go back to the rink. I skate two afternoon sessions (1:15 p.m. – 2:15 p.m. and 3:45 p.m. – 4:45 p.m.) and after that I have PT (physical therapy), workout and recovery from 5:00 p.m. – 7:00 p.m. Of course, then I get home and need to do some homework before I go to bed. ​

---

ETA:

Forgot to add the link to Krasnozhon's interview:

http://figureskatersonline.com/news...ow-a-russian-born-texas-loving-figure-skater/ (Mar 14)​

What I liked about this one is his description of the USFS camp for Junior Worlds:

FSO: How was the experience of U.S. Figure Skating‘s first Junior Worlds camp in Chicago for you? What did you get out of it specifically?
AK: I really liked it because everyone got to skate with everyone, especially the guys. We push each other in a good way. The guys are doing quads. You see Vincent (Zhou) land a quad, then I would land a quad, Andrew (Torgashev) would land a quad and then I go for a triple axel. It was a great experience skating with the high level skaters. It was almost like skating in Junior Worlds where a lot of people are doing quads and triple axels. Each of us skate at a facility where there are almost no high level skaters so it is really hard sometimes to push yourself. It (Junior Worlds Camp) was an amazing experience. I also liked that we got to run our programs in our costumes and it was like a competition. That was very helpful, especially the feedback from the judges before Junior Worlds was very helpful as well. So I think camp was a turning point to work harder on some stuff and pull down on some stuff. For me, my jumping was really, really good, but my spins kind of went down. So as soon as I got back, I got back on track with my spins and right now, they are really good. They are back to level fours, they are fast and they have plusses (GOEs). So my biggest takeaway from the camp was they told me what I should work on before Junior Worlds and that was very helpful. ​

 

[FlattFan]

These guys (and almost all of them) are super hard working! Next year at Nationals, it will be firework. Can't wait.

 

[KatGrace1925]

Vincent did so great!!!

 

[mrrice]

I'm sorry....Have I been living on Mars. When did Jason move to Frank???? Is this a permanent change? It will kill me if it is....This would make 2 elite level skaters that have left Kori's Camp. Is something going on with Rohene and Kori? Are they having problems? Jason and Mariah seemed to be two of the happiest skaters on the US team.

 

[Mrs. P]

I'm sorry....Have I been living on Mars. When did Jason move to Frank???? Is this a permanent change? It will kill me if it is....This would make 2 elite level skaters that have left Kori's Camp. Is something going on with Rohene and Kori? Are they having problems Jason and Mariah seemed to be two of the happiest skaters on the US team.

It was just a temporary stint, just like he did before Skate America. Kori is still his coach.

 

[mrrice]

It was just a temporary stint, just like he did before Skate America. Kori is still his coach.

As they used to say on Absolutely Fabulous......Thank Bloody Gawd ......I love Frank and Lori but, Jason has been through so much with Kori and Rohene that I would hate to see them separate at this point in Jason's career. When healthy, Jason's component marks can stack up against the best men in the world.

 

[skatinggold]

Too bad his jumps will never stack up to the top men. He still underroate his triples.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Too bad his jumps will never stack up to the top men. He still underroate his triples.

So far this season internationally he has had one UR on a 3A at NHK and one UR on a 3Z at 4CC. Wow two URs on triples all season... the horror... such shame, wow. Also remember he was starting to feel his injury at NHK... so he has had two URs due to injury and none while healthy this season.

 

[mrrice]

So far this season internationally he has had one UR on a 3A at NHK and one UR on a 3Z at 4CC. Wow two URs on triples all season... the horror... such shame, wow. Also remember he was starting to feel his injury at NHK... so he has had two URs due to injury and none while healthy this season.

I agree. I've seen Jason perform live many times. All the way back to 2011. He has always had very good lift to his jumps. IMO, It was the speed of his rotation that held him back. He was always a joyful performer but now he has more depth and style to his skating. Speaking of seeing Jason in 2011, I also saw Joshua Farris that same season and several of the following seasons. If Nathan doesn't have a dip in his form, I don't see how Jason will make the Olympic Team. Joshua is in much better condition than I expected he'd be and frankly, I thought he would stay retired.

We have so many Men capable of executing big jumps now that Jason can longer rely on his big component number to get him on the Podium. Nathan, Vincent, Max, and Joshua are all planning multiple quads and things will only get harder for Jason when Alexei Krasnozhon joins the senior ranks. It's a blessing and a course for the US Men to have such a deep team. However, if we're going to have a Man back on the podium at Worlds it's the direction we need to go.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Nathan, Vincent, Max, and Joshua are all planning multiple quads and things will only get harder for Jason when Alexei Krasnozhon joins the senior ranks. It's a blessing and a course for the US Men to have such a deep team. However, if we're going to have a Man back on the podium at Worlds it's the direction we need to go.

If Vincent improves as much as Nathan has in a year, they will be a formidable duo. If we do gain a third spot, I think it's unlikely that the skater will be a medal contender at the major events in 2018. Although Jason doesn't have a consistent quad, he is an opportunist who can beat a lot of the guys with quads if they're having a bad day. I would not be surprised to see any combination of three men you mentioned (without excluding Nathan) comprising the Olympic team.

 

[Mrs. P]

If Vincent improves as much as Nathan has in a year, they will be a formidable duo. If we do gain a third spot, I think it's unlikely that the skater will be a medal contender at the major events in 2018. Although Jason doesn't have a consistent quad, he is an opportunist who can beat a lot of the guys with quads if they're having a bad day. I would not be surprised to see any combination of three men you mentioned (without excluding Nathan) comprising the Olympic team.

Yep.

Jason wasn't even in the conversation for the Olympic Team in 2014. And yet even with just two spots, he managed to get on the team. I think it's going to be even tougher next year than it was in 2014, I won't be surprised if he gets on the team.

For every bunch of teenagers who get them at 16 or 17, there's always at least one Tatsuki Machida who manages to get them later. Jason could be in that boat come next year, heck, even in two weeks. We'll see.

 

[bekalc]

Neither is a universal truth -- it depends on the skater. Again, I don't like putting skaters into corner, nor do I like put into a corner as a figure skating fan.

I like Jason Brown and Boyang Jin this season. I like Boyang 4Z the best, and everything positive about Jason has been said in this thread, I've seen both work on their respectful weaknesses and I believe both will follow through I'm the long run. Why? Not cause they are one category or another, because they have shown a willingness to make improvements in the past and have shown improvements in the past. It may not always translate to scores, but I can see it.

Also liking both a quote, unquote an artist and a jumper? Doesn't make it easy to put me in the pro-artist or pro-technician category. Just put me in "pro-human"

I understand where your coming from. But the reason I disagree with you is that I think your operating on the idea that if someone works hard enough they are for sure going to achieve said things.

However physical ability plays a role in things as well.

There is a big difference between Boyang and Jason. Boyang already CAN skate. He will probably never be Patrick Chan. But he wouldn't be able to do what he currently does, if he couldn't skate. So right now what he needs to work on is getting better at something he already can do. This doesn't mean he's going to be gorgeous and pleasing skater... Or a hugely musical one, but if he works on it he can be decent. And if he works on it he can improve his edge quality etc. People are not asking him to learn something he can't do-they are asking him to get better at something he can already do. And you don't need to be a ballerina on ice in order to do well at the sport.

However, Jason hasn't shown yet that he actually can do a quad jump. And there are plenty of people-no matter how hard they work, or how hard they try are never going to be physically capable of landing a quad...

The problem I have with you saying if Jason just works hard enough he will get, is that implies that those who never mastered a triple lutz or a triple/triple for women or a quad/triple axel for men. That they just never worked hard enough. And I don't think that's the case. Physical talent and ability play a role in things. This is why I am so skeptical about the idea of Jason somehow magically getting a quad/quads. I just think that Jason has probably been working hard at getting a quad for a super long time...And him not getting one or constantly injured, maybe his body saying NO.

So I guess the point I am making is that I realize you are just trying to sound optimistic and fair to everyone. But saying well if he works at it for sure he will get also has the opposite effect of saying that somehow who doesn't get it-never worked hard enough. I don't think your trying to say it but its the obvious conclusion.

It's one of the those where life isn't fair. .. By all accounts Jason is a hard worker. I have nothing against him personally. But I have watched this sport long enough where I can see that for example most girls get their triples before puberty... That most men do the quad younger too. There's a reason for it.

I am actually not a Vincent uber. I am actually looking at this objectively. The only thing I care about is seeing the US men make World/Olympic podiums. And I am going to look at the men who can compete technically. I don't think Jason is that guy, because I haven't seen really many if any examples of a skater his age making huge strides technically after platuing. I think Zhou can maybe be that if he improves Presentation wise. But I have seen NUMEROUS cases of skaters Zhou's age improving presentation wise.

So my long term money is on Zhou.

 

[Mrs. P]

I know life isn't far. I also know that you're not always going to get what you want just because you work hard. That's been the case in my own life and career. I honestly don't appreciate being painted as some sort of naive, pollyanna type, cause I'm not. Yes, I do tend to try to see the best in people, but I also don't make blind assumptions either.

Some people just take a while to master things and I do think Jason was close before this latest injury. Even if the quad at Skate America was UR, it was still landed on one foot and I think a different caller would have given it to him. Maybe you're right that injuries -- if they keep occuring ---will ultimately do him in -- that's crossed my mind, since it has affected other skaters I like. But I don't think these particular injuries are career ending -- stress fractures suck, but people get them and they can come back from them.

Finally, please don't put words in my mouth -- I NEVER said that people who don't get certain jumps aren't hard workers or they didn't get it because they work hard enough. My point was that both Jason (and Boyang) have the willingness to do what they need to improve and they have a track record of doing so -- that's not just working hard, it's working smart. It's fine if you don't think Jason will never get the quad or won't amount to anything more in his career. But I also have logical, not pie-in-the-sky, reasons why I think he will follow through and still has some room for growth.

Also, for the record, I also never said that Vincent couldn't improve his artistry. I think both men can improve; it's not a mutually exclusive thing.

 

[bekalc]

I know life isn't far. I also know that you're not always going to get what you want just because you work hard. That's been the case in my own life and career. I honestly don't appreciate being painted as some sort of naive, pollyanna type, cause I'm not. Yes, I do tend to try to see the best in people, but I also don't make blind assumptions either.

Some people just take a while to master things and I do think Jason was close before this latest injury. Even if the quad at Skate America was UR, it was still landed on one foot and I think a different caller would have given it to him. Maybe you're right that injuries -- if they keep occuring ---will ultimately do him in -- that's crossed my mind, since it has affected other skaters I like. But I don't think these particular injuries are career ending -- stress fractures suck, but people get them and they can come back from them.

Finally, please don't put words in my mouth -- I NEVER said that people who don't get certain jumps aren't hard workers or they didn't get it because they work hard enough. My point only applied to both Jason (and Boyang) in this case. It's fine if you don't think Jason will never get the quad or won't amount to anything more in his career. But I also have logical, not pie-in-the-sky, reasons why I think he will follow through and still has some room for growth.

Also, for the record, I also never said that Vincent couldn't improve his artistry. I think both men can improve; it's not a mutually exclusive thing.

Please read what I said. I mentioned that I don't think you mean to say those people don't work hard. I am merely pointing out that if Jason just works hard enough he will for sure get the quad- the logical conclusion to that argument is if Jason doesn't get the quad he just didn't work hard enough? See my point?

And I never said Jason was good for nothing, or that he will never achieve anything in his career. That is putting words in my mouth. I think a National title, Olympic birth and one fourth place achievement-is well achieving something.

I have said that I would love for him to prove me wrong when it comes to the quad.

However. I think it is the job of the USFSA federation to look at their skaters, and ask themselves who has the potential to eventually compete at the World level. Based on what the skater is actually showing them. And I think a young skater with quads already established landed etc. Is a safer, smarter, sounder long term bet.

And at the end of the day, it wasn't the competition results that choose the World team. Because ( I don't event think Zhou competed against Jason before this) Because if you went with results on what both did against each other. Zhou beat him.

So they are going by subjectives, and I think if subjective and not based on result then you need too and frankly have a responsibility to take into account that Jason in the last four years has still not gotten a consistent quad.

 

[noskates]

Two things to say about this conversation: (1) the ice is slippery and whether or not you have quads you still have to land them; and (2) NEVER count Jason out.

 

[Mrs. P]

Please read what I said. I mentioned that I don't think you mean to say those people don't work hard. I am merely pointing out that if Jason just works hard enough he will for sure get the quad- the logical conclusion to that argument is if Jason doesn't get the quad he just didn't work hard enough? See my point?

And I never said Jason was good for nothing, or that he will never achieve anything in his career. That is putting words in my mouth. I think a National title, Olympic birth and one fourth place achievement-is well achieving something.

I have said that I would love for him to prove me wrong when it comes to the quad.

However. I think it is the job of the USFSA federation to look at their skaters, and ask themselves who has the potential to eventually compete at the World level. Based on what the skater is actually showing them. And I think a young skater with quads already established landed etc. Is a safer, smarter, sounder long term bet.

And at the end of the day, it wasn't the competition results that choose the World team. Because ( I don't event think Zhou competed against Jason before this) Because if you went with results on what both did against each other. Zhou beat him.

So they are going by subjectives, and I think if subjective and not based on result then you need too and frankly have a responsibility to take into account that Jason in the last four years has still not gotten a consistent quad.

Maybe I'm not clear enough. And I edited my post above. Of course I know there's more to it than just "working hard." Again, I'm not naive. I do think that Jason and his team have a reasonable strategy and plan to get him to help him make sufficient progress in the quad. I think he has made incremental progress on it. I get that the stress fracture complicates things, but again, I'm sure Jason and his team have revised their plan to account for that and to hopefully peak in Worlds in a few weeks.

It does sound like you think Jason has plateaued ( "I haven't seen really many if any examples of a skater his age making huge strides technically after plateauing.") as far as his growth and have achieved all that he can achieve (i.e. U.S. title; 4th place at Worlds; Olympics berth), that is what I disagree with. My disagreement is with the assessment that he won't amount to anything more.

I've already established that I would have been fine with Vincent going to Worlds instead. Heck I think he made a case with his Jr. Worlds performance.

 

[el henry]

....
I am actually not a Vincent uber. I am actually looking at this objectively. The only thing I care about is seeing the US men make World/Olympic podiums. And I am going to look at the men who can compete technically. I don't think Jason is that guy, because I haven't seen really many if any examples of a skater his age making huge strides technically after platuing. I think Zhou can maybe be that if he improves Presentation wise. But I have seen NUMEROUS cases of skaters Zhou's age improving presentation wise.

So my long term money is on Zhou.

And that is where we disagree.

I have been watching this sport for a very long time. Too long. Have I seen teens who concentrate on jump jump jump jump *improve* their presentation? Sure. Have I seen them get *anywhere* near the presentation skills that Jason has? Nope. I have not seen numerous examples, I have not seen many examples, I have seen exceeding few examples.

But for me, it's not enough to improve presentation over what was a very low bar to start with. It's presenting a five Toller skate. If someone who is a current jump jump jumper improves enough to present a five Toller skate, as Jason does, I will be the first to stand and applaud. But it ain't easy and it doesn't happen often.

Whether ISU rewards five Toller skates and whether that earns medals is another topic entirely.

 

[Krunchii]

I'm really happy Vincent got to end his season on such high note. I'm really proud of him and I hope that next season we'll see more brilliance from him.

As for the whole World team debate, no take backsies, Jason should work hard and if he does help earn 3 spots, good for him, if he doesn't, it is what it is. If Vincent and Mirai's cases can inspire change in the USFSA in the future then that alone will satisfy me enough.