2017 Jr Worlds Ladies SP

[Sweet Dream]

Zagitova's posture is even worse at the very beginning of this season. I think her skating has much improved up to now, and her jumping abilities are simply amazing, much much better than her teammate Medvedeva. Criticising the skating leader all the way through is a tradition here, but some comments here are not purely based on selfless reasons. As a mature bystander we should give this little girl more time to grow instead of complaining and nitpicking no matter what.

 

[nipman]

Oh my, this JWC is gonna be a disastrous competition for Russian girls and I'm wondering why. Polina is already out of Top 10, the chance to get on podium for Stasya is very slim, and with some underrotations (esp. the loop-ending combo) Alina could be kicked off the podium by the Japanese girls who are super consistent or Eunsoo who is also spectacular.

 

[solani]

Regardless if Russia or Europe has 1000 judges, and rest of the world only has 100. At a WORLD championship where there are skaters come from all over the world to compete, they must be given equal opportunity. There should always be a balanced judging panel consist of different qualified judges from different continents. There's a limit on how many spots can a country get to compete, and there should be a limit on how many judges from the same continent should sit on the same judging panel. Especially as it is well known the federation judges are there to compete for their federation's interests and subjective judging are of certainty.

It's not the fault of the ISU or the European federations that the non-European federations have so few judges. And yes, the non-European federations could complain about that but I haven't heard them complain. Have you? I hear you complaining, maybe you should write to some of those federations and inform them about your doubts and about the unfairness of it all if you want something to be done about it. I'm sure something could be done. It's not that the US, China, Japan and Canada are federations without power inside the ISU. Contact them. They have enough judges, suggest to them that they should be allowed to enter two judges per discipline or something. Or that there should be a pre-draw for European judges, so that they minimize the number of European judges in the actual draw.
If you think that this is a real problem (I don't) then you should do something about it! I only tried to explain the actual process to you and the reason why there are so few non-European judges on the panels.

 

[OS]

It's not the fault of the ISU or the European federations that the non-European federations have so few judges. And yes, the non-European federations could complain about that but I haven't heard them complain. Have you? I hear you complaining, maybe you should write to some of those federations and inform them about your doubts and about the unfairness of it all if you want something to be done about it. I'm sure something could be done. It's not that the US, China, Japan and Canada are federations without power inside the ISU. Contact them. They have enough judges, suggest to them that they should be allowed to enter two judges per discipline or something. Or that there should be a pre-draw for European judges, so that they minimize the number of European judges in the actual draw.
If you think that this is a real problem (I don't) then you should do something about it! I only tried to explain the actual process to you and the reason why there are so few non-European judges on the panels.

This has to be done within the sport governing body, rules, legislation and policy. IOC should sort this out. The are reasons why they are not is because the current institution is the very one that is exploiting the flaws for their own benefit. You have identified the reason but not the cause. For example, how many times do we get all European panel in N.American events or even in Europe? Or outside ladies event generally? Why should they want to do something about it if it removes power and disadvantages them? (Architects being Speedy + Alexander Lakernik, VP of Russia federation who decides on rule changes, chairman of Tech committee/judging)

And why should I be responsible about it, I am just a fan, so I post on boards Day job is already taking too much time off my hands, and uhmm frankly I have better things to do.

Japan, China, Korea et al. it is time to team up and do something about these funny goings, where basically others can have all the advantages they want - when it suit them, but you can't, even if you are hosting these events and paying all the money!

 

[Globetrotter]

Zagitova's posture is even worse at the very beginning of this season. I think her skating has much improved up to now, and her jumping abilities are simply amazing, much much better than her teammate Medvedeva. Criticising the skating leader all the way through is a tradition here, but some comments here are not purely based on selfless reasons. As a mature bystander we should give this little girl more time to grow instead of complaining and nitpicking no matter what.

I think most folks are subconsciously more critical of the judging rather than Zagitova per se. Notice that nobody actually has any issues with her TES scores. As always, the inconsistency is in the PCS. A beautifully structured piece from Eunsoo and Marin scores less or barely higher than Alina. Zagitova's basic SS and edge work is really not there and that frantic rushing to complete the moves to squeeze out more GOEs should really be docked in the CH components. Don't get me wrong, I love that she use the rippon moves well and the moves into the 3R is to die for. But I think she has not been given good programs overall. Certainly the ability to reach out to audience and charm them the way a Marin or Zhenya or Lenok is not there and the PCS should reflect that.

 

[solani]

This has to be done within the sport governing body, rules, legislation and policy. IOC should sort this out. The are reasons why they are not is because the current institution is the very one that is exploiting the flaws for their own benefit. You have identify the reason but not the cause. For example, how many times do we get all European panel in N.American events or even in Europe? Or outside ladies event generally? Why should they want to do something about it if it removes power and disadvantages them? (Architects being Speedy + Alexander Lakernik, VP of Russia federation who decides on rule changes, chairman of Tech committee/judging)

And why should I be responsible about it, I am just a fan, so I post on boards Day job is already taking too much time off my hands, and uhmm frankly I have better things to do.

Japan, China, Korea et al. it is time to team up and do something about these funny goings, where basically others can have all the advantages they want - when it suit them, but you can't, even if you are hosting these events and paying all the money!

Sorry, but this made me laugh. Don't count on the IOC to sort out anything.
But yes, if non-European countries think that this is an issue they should definitely team up and do something. They could complain to the ISU and at the same time they should definitely train more judges. If this really is an advantage then the non-European countries give that advantage freely. You can't expect f.e. Russia to do something about it, especially if no one complains except you.

 

[OS]

Sorry, but this made me laugh. Don't count on the IOC to sort out anything.
But yes, if non-European countries think that this is an issue they should definitely team up and do something. They could complain to the ISU and at the same time they should definitely train more judges. If this really is an advantage then the non-European countries give that advantage freely. You can't expect f.e. Russia to do something about it, especially if no one complains except you.

The reality of European Union under Russian rule is going to be more authorative than the none existent Asia Union or N.America infighting 'our ice dancer is the best' politics. The only way things are going to change is when and if Alexander Lakernik goes into retirement and say Japan/China/Korea/N.American will take over.

Personally I would love a neutral person with no horse in the race to look into judging selection process, and do a COP overhaul some how.

 

[solani]

The reality of European Union under Russian rule is going to be more authorative than the none existent Asia Union or N.America infighting 'our ice dancer is the best' politics. The only way things are going to change is when and if Alexander Lakernik goes into retirement and say Japan/China/Korea/N.American will take over.

Personally I would love a neutral person with no horse in the race to look into judging selection process, and do a COP overhaul some how.

I strongly disagree on that. Russia might want to rule over the European Union but we are not having it!
And you see in that other thread that the judges from Canada, Great Britain and Germany complained about the behaviour of judges from Russia and Belarus. The European countries are not one big family only there to serve Russia.

 

[OS]

I strongly disagree on that. Russia might want to rule over the European Union but we are not having it!
And you see in that other thread that the judges from Canada, Great Britain and Germany complained about the behaviour of judges from Russia and Belarus. The European countries are not one big family only there to serve Russia.

Yes lets have the recent honoured President Vanessa Riley rule please...

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/west-london-news/new-years-honours-britains-longest-12386413

beauty, the grace and the beautiful movements, the emotion

Yes yes yes!!

 

[solani]

Yes lets have the recent honoured President Vanessa Riley rule please...

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/west-london-news/new-years-honours-britains-longest-12386413



Yes yes yes!!

That's an important point - most of the judges simply love this sport.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

It was really hard to get through this post... The most interesting thing i found is yours opinion on a skater based on their posture... I mean really... That's not even the thing which is judged in figure skating sport...Figure skating is not a ballet... Some of you should read what competitive figure skating is and what judges are judging... Or you already read it, but you are just haters, and that's it

 

[Baron Vladimir]

In sports with judges, Olympics are won for a lot of reasons, some of which have never to do with the athlete concerned and his/her performance.

1) Every sport has judges (who sometimes make mistakes, or they are biased) !!! 2) Sport is a thing where you need to score one goal to win, even you are not the best. Florence Griffith Joyner is a 100m record holder -we know she is the fastest one, but how much races (medals) she won in her career is totally different topic from the fact she is potentially the fastest one... 3) So, my point was that you can win in figure skating based on observation on that exact time you are skating. It doesn't have nothing with athlete's performances in general, just with his/her performance in that exact time...

 

[solani]

It was really hard to get through this post... The most interesting thing i found is yours opinion on a skater based on their posture... I mean really... That's not even the thing which is judged in figure skating sport...Figure skating is not a ballet... Some of you should read what competitive figure skating is and what judges are judging... Or you already read it, but you are just haters, and that's it

Looks like a response to something I wrote.
I disagree, posture is something that is judged in figure skating. Yes, figure skating is not ballet but this is and issue as it should be. Because a figure skater should look beautiful on the ice. It's a combination of athleticism and grace. And Zagitova is only 14, she has time to improve (and I've seen improvement since Nationals).
Please read this: Components with Explanations.
You see that "quality" is a criteria in judging "Transitions/Linking Footwork & Movement".
And "clarity of movement" and "carriage" are criteria in judging "Performance/Execution".

 

[rosy14]

1) Every sport has judges (who sometimes make mistakes, or they are biased) !!! 2) Sport is a thing where you need to score one goal to win, even you are not the best. Florence Griffith Joyner is a 100m record holder -we know she is the fastest one, but how much races (medals) she won in her career is totally different topic from the fact she is potentially the fastest one... 3) So, my point was that you can win in figure skating based on observation on that exact time you are skating. It doesn't have nothing with athlete's performances in general, just with his/her performance in that exact time...

For"judges" I meant people who award points by which someone wins and some other loses. I was not refering to referees or
other figures who check, for instance, if the disc was thrown correctly or if the jumper touched or not the line which cannot be touched, otherwise it's a invalid jump, etc.
Running is very different from skating: you runs against time, if you're the fastest, even if you technique is bad, you win.
Mennea ran badly, but he was the fastest of his time, and won. Bolt is both the fastest and the most beautiful to watch, as a runner, but he wins gold medals for his velocity, not his body appearance.
What I mean, is that, if there are judges, as in figure skating, gymnastics, synchronised swimming, diving, etc, a subjective fActor is introduced, and this subjectivity depends on the experience and expertise of the judges, their cultural ideals and values, their country's traditions, and yes, the political and policy allegiances and alliances of their country. Plus the "home factor". And the politically correctness too.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Looks like a response to something I wrote.
I disagree, posture is something that is judged in figure skating. Yes, figure skating is not ballet but this is and issue as it should be. Because a figure skater should look beautiful on the ice. It's a combination of athleticism and grace. And Zagitova is only 14, she has time to improve (and I've seen improvement since Nationals).
Please read this: Components with Explanations.
You see that "quality" is a criteria in judging "Transitions/Linking Footwork & Movement".
And "clarity of movement" and "carriage" are criteria in judging "Performance/Execution".

You have figure skating and you have ballet on ice. Figure skating is not only based on figures you make with your body but also on figures you made on ice (with your blades). What you are doing with your hands, are you beautiful or fat, is not the most important thing. Quality is of course criteria in judging, it's even a part of GOE bullets. My point is that in first place you need to have an element like transition - let's say Zagitova's leg in the air - and only after you can see that you can judge quality of that exact element. But if nobody else has exact same transition you can't say quality of that element is better or worse, that could be only your subjective perception of beauty...

 

[Baron Vladimir]

For"judges" I meant people who award points by which someone wins and some other loses. I was not refering to referees or
other figures who check, for instance, if the disc was thrown correctly or if the jumper touched or not the line which cannot be touched, otherwise it's a invalid jump, etc.
Running is very different from skating: you runs against time, if you're the fastest, even if you technique is bad, you win.
Mennea ran badly, but he was the fastest of his time, and won. Bolt is both the fastest and the most beautiful to watch, as a runner, but he wins gold medals for his velocity, not his body appearance.
What I mean, is that, if there are judges, as in figure skating, gymnastics, synchronised swimming, diving, etc, a subjective fActor is introduced, and this subjectivity depends on the experience and expertise of the judges, their cultural ideals and values, their country's traditions, and yes, the political and policy allegiances and alliances of their country. Plus the "home factor". And the politically correctness too.

I agree with you. I was trying to explain better just one of the many things i wanted to say in first place.

 

[solani]

You have figure skating and you have ballet on ice. Figure skating is not only based on figures you make with your body but also on figures you made on ice (with your blades). Quality is of course criteria in judging, it's even a part of GOE bullets. My point is that in first place you need to have an element like transition - let's say Zagitova's leg in the air - and only after you can see that you can judge quality of that exact element. If nobody else has exact same transition you can't say quality of that element is better or worse...

She's not doing anything we haven't seen better in the past. But yes, she's doing a lot and the judges obviously recognize that.
But you realize that Zagitova did a FS program to ballet music and that she even wore a tutu to emphasize that? I mentioned that before - I like her SP better. She obviously wants to be a ballet type skater and I think that she has a lot of work to do if she truly wants to become that. But everyone has to start somewhere, it's a process. Or do you think she's already perfect? :sarcasm:

 

[Baron Vladimir]

She's not doing anything we haven't seen better in the past. But yes, she's doing a lot and the judges obviously recognize that.
But you realize that Zagitova did a FS program to ballet music and that she even wore a tutu to emphasize that? I mentioned that before - I like her SP better. She obviously wants to be a ballet type skater and I think that she has a lot of work to do if she truly wants to become that. But everyone has to start somewhere, it's a process. Or do you think she's already perfect? :sarcasm:

Of course not, she is just doing what she need to do to win... Conclusions like someone's bad posture, someone's beauty and other similar things people are saying here are subjective perceptions of something, and is not something which judges are looking for in that way to judge it (cause you don't have objective/adequate parameters to judge that)...

 

[Ares]

When she skated J Lo she was 16 - two seasons ago

Ahhh ... You're right ... she was 15 / 16 already.

 

[solani]

Of course not, she is just doing what she need to do to win... Conclusions like someone's bad posture, someone's beauty and other similar things people are saying here are subjective perceptions of something, and is not something which judges are looking for in that way to judge it (cause you don't have objective/adequate parameters to judge that)...

No. As I posted before, judges are looking at thinks like carriage, quality and clarity of movement. They obviously think that the tons of things she does outweigh her shortcomings. And those things aren't subjective, you can compare it easily and when you watch Zagitova right after Honda it's only too obvious. But Zagitova is the rightful winner of course. It's only that her PCS is a bit high. I don't have a real problem with that as long as the ranking is ok (I was offended by the result at Russian Nationals tough).
But that's really all I have to say on that matter. If you can't value the beauty of good posture and extensions I feel a bit sorry for you, but if you're happy with it that's totally fine with me. I only wanted to explain to you that judges do value those things, as they should because it's in the rulebook for good reason.