Yeah... they're old fashioned, traditional medals. The sort that soldiers wear pinned to their chests, and they're sized accordingly... but surely it IS about time to move on?! They don't have to be silly Olympic-sizes, but double the current size wouldn't hurt...?!
2017 Jr Worlds Ladies FS
- Thread starter dorispulaski
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- Joined
- Mar 16, 2005
What an event. Incredible to see the top two (even top three) skate so well in both programs. This is another one of those competitions where in any other year the second place skate would have been the winning one, but for someone just a little bit better. There's obviously a lot to analyze in comparing Zagitova and Honda, but I am just hoping this turns eventually turns into the sort of rivalry that we saw between Kwan and Slutskaya in the early 2000s. I will preface my next comments by saying I don't think that because a skater is your favorite that you can't still think that other skaters are better. Honda is my favorite, but no doubt Zagitova is the stronger skater at this moment.
Honda did lose this event on the technical mark; this should be obvious, since she had the highest PCS of both programs. I appreciate Li'Kitsu breaking down the points above, because I looked at the protocols and did the same thing. Even if Honda had performed all her jumps in the second half and replaced one of her triple toes with a Lutz to match Zagitova jump for jump, she'd still come up short. Zagitova's spins are also faster and more well centered and in some cases with better position. I would say that Zagitova is all-around a stronger technical skater. In fact, I think she is technically stronger than Medvedeva too and maybe the strongest in the world; her ability to tell a story on the ice is lacking, but I think she could be next season's spoiler. Back to JW, though. Honda's jumps do seem to have gotten stronger since last season, so I do think she is progressing. I remember last season having moments when I felt like Honda's jumps were only marginally better than Miyahara's, but they seem to be getting stronger and higher. We've also seen that she can do a beautiful Lutz-loop combo. Even if she includes this next season, I agree with others that she may need to pursue the axel and perhaps return to the quad Salchow as well. I think she may just be taking a more slow-and-steady kind of approach. Her artistry is, in my opinion, much better than Zagitova who's strategy of checking off boxes caries over into the components side to the extent that she seems entirely disconnected from the music. We should remember, though, how many junior skaters often seem like the next senior star only to fizzle, and this could happen to either skater. I will say, though, that Honda looked like she already had a fire burning in her while stepping on to that second tier of the podium.
The issue of backloading is so complicated. The scoring is now points based and finding ways to maximize points is how you win. It's weird that the bonus is technically termed "highlight distribution", since what Zagitova does is not really distribution, but concentration. I agree that it creates an imbalanced program. Should marks be deducted from the PCS side of things for this strategy? Perhaps. Has anyone ever proposed a pro-rated bonus for jump distribution? 10% for third minute and 20% for fourth minute, or something? Would that lead to skaters attempting all seven triples in the last minute? I think there has to be some trade off. My initial thought is that a limit to how many jumping passes can be performed in the second half could be imposed, but I think this just gets absurd. The more limitations you put on things the more you head towards the extreme of every skater has to perform the exact same routine. I don't think anyone wants to see that. I guess the other option is that, as has happened many times in the sport, there is a fluctuation between technical focus and artistic focus generally, and perhaps we will see a pendulum swing back towards an increased focus on the PCS side of things from certain skaters to make up the difference.
Sakamoto reminds me of Midori Ito. Does anyone else see that?
Certainly, I think with the depth of talent, Russia and Japan are setting themselves up to be the dominant forces in the women's event for a while.
Honda did lose this event on the technical mark; this should be obvious, since she had the highest PCS of both programs. I appreciate Li'Kitsu breaking down the points above, because I looked at the protocols and did the same thing. Even if Honda had performed all her jumps in the second half and replaced one of her triple toes with a Lutz to match Zagitova jump for jump, she'd still come up short. Zagitova's spins are also faster and more well centered and in some cases with better position. I would say that Zagitova is all-around a stronger technical skater. In fact, I think she is technically stronger than Medvedeva too and maybe the strongest in the world; her ability to tell a story on the ice is lacking, but I think she could be next season's spoiler. Back to JW, though. Honda's jumps do seem to have gotten stronger since last season, so I do think she is progressing. I remember last season having moments when I felt like Honda's jumps were only marginally better than Miyahara's, but they seem to be getting stronger and higher. We've also seen that she can do a beautiful Lutz-loop combo. Even if she includes this next season, I agree with others that she may need to pursue the axel and perhaps return to the quad Salchow as well. I think she may just be taking a more slow-and-steady kind of approach. Her artistry is, in my opinion, much better than Zagitova who's strategy of checking off boxes caries over into the components side to the extent that she seems entirely disconnected from the music. We should remember, though, how many junior skaters often seem like the next senior star only to fizzle, and this could happen to either skater. I will say, though, that Honda looked like she already had a fire burning in her while stepping on to that second tier of the podium.
The issue of backloading is so complicated. The scoring is now points based and finding ways to maximize points is how you win. It's weird that the bonus is technically termed "highlight distribution", since what Zagitova does is not really distribution, but concentration. I agree that it creates an imbalanced program. Should marks be deducted from the PCS side of things for this strategy? Perhaps. Has anyone ever proposed a pro-rated bonus for jump distribution? 10% for third minute and 20% for fourth minute, or something? Would that lead to skaters attempting all seven triples in the last minute? I think there has to be some trade off. My initial thought is that a limit to how many jumping passes can be performed in the second half could be imposed, but I think this just gets absurd. The more limitations you put on things the more you head towards the extreme of every skater has to perform the exact same routine. I don't think anyone wants to see that. I guess the other option is that, as has happened many times in the sport, there is a fluctuation between technical focus and artistic focus generally, and perhaps we will see a pendulum swing back towards an increased focus on the PCS side of things from certain skaters to make up the difference.
Sakamoto reminds me of Midori Ito. Does anyone else see that?
Certainly, I think with the depth of talent, Russia and Japan are setting themselves up to be the dominant forces in the women's event for a while.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
Re: Zagitova's programs, backloading, etc.
I do expect her to be much better in terms of refinement and expression next season. All of Eteri's girls are pretty good at this, good posture and movements - Eteri coaches it well, so Alina just needs more seasoning in that regard.
I also think Eteri and co. (Averbukh) care, to a certain extent, about perception. And perception is super, super high during the Olympics. Yulia became a star with her Schindler's List program, and I'm sure the entire team behind the program and packaging took a lot of pride in all of the praise the program received internationally. For that reason, if Alina skates senior next season, I'd be somewhat surprised to see a second-half-jumpfest. Eteri's top girls usually get Averbukh choreography, and while I don't particularly like Averbukh choreography, he's clearly perceived as the "grand arteeste" for Russian ladies. And I would be surprised if there was no effort to combat the "box ticking" accusations in the form of more emotionally complex and "deep" programs for Alina. Eteri and co. seem to take pride in coaching skaters who bring the entire package, in molding them into "storytellers" with meaningful programs.
This isn't an invitation for people to begin attacking the quality of the "storytelling" and the "deep" programs performed by Eteri's skaters, more of a theorizing on how packaging and perception will shift during an Olympic year. If Alina fails to improve artistically, then I could foresee the Russian lady version of the 1998 Nagano narrative. The veteran artist (Evgenia) versus the athletic upstart (Alina).
I do expect her to be much better in terms of refinement and expression next season. All of Eteri's girls are pretty good at this, good posture and movements - Eteri coaches it well, so Alina just needs more seasoning in that regard.
I also think Eteri and co. (Averbukh) care, to a certain extent, about perception. And perception is super, super high during the Olympics. Yulia became a star with her Schindler's List program, and I'm sure the entire team behind the program and packaging took a lot of pride in all of the praise the program received internationally. For that reason, if Alina skates senior next season, I'd be somewhat surprised to see a second-half-jumpfest. Eteri's top girls usually get Averbukh choreography, and while I don't particularly like Averbukh choreography, he's clearly perceived as the "grand arteeste" for Russian ladies. And I would be surprised if there was no effort to combat the "box ticking" accusations in the form of more emotionally complex and "deep" programs for Alina. Eteri and co. seem to take pride in coaching skaters who bring the entire package, in molding them into "storytellers" with meaningful programs.
This isn't an invitation for people to begin attacking the quality of the "storytelling" and the "deep" programs performed by Eteri's skaters, more of a theorizing on how packaging and perception will shift during an Olympic year. If Alina fails to improve artistically, then I could foresee the Russian lady version of the 1998 Nagano narrative. The veteran artist (Evgenia) versus the athletic upstart (Alina).
I dont see what is all the issue with backloading, anyways. How many ladies are currently doing imbalanced programs? Like, about 2, right?
It would be an issue if everybody started doing it. For now, if anything, it should be rewarded for originality.
It would be an issue if everybody started doing it. For now, if anything, it should be rewarded for originality.
I think Alina is most charming in her exhibition program. I wish she would do something like that in one of her competitive programs next season. I just think that this ballet style isn't for her (yet). If she comes up with a Swan Lake program next season ... 
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2013
Zagitova is one of the best technicians I have ever seen in the ladies ever. Juniorish and somewhat artistically limited but please have a decency to recognize technical proficiency when you see one. It's laughable and insulting to hear this kind of talk from a fan of a skater who showed up at Sochi with a technically poor program only save by her superior artistry and interpretation. FACT A boatload of crossovers and gliding from one end of the rink to the other to land a 3Lz-3T does not constitute good technical talent and ability.
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- Joined
- Dec 30, 2016
I take that 3Lz-3T over anything that Alina or any ladies junior jumped in this event, honestly lol. You're pretty disrespectful to person who achieved everything in this sport and is one of the best ever. I shouldn't even reply to this :disapp: Another desperate fan trying to praise his fave in laughable way.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
What a funny post.
Quit arguing for the sake of arguing just to be in disagreement with known Yuna fan will ya? When all you have expressed is that we are actually in general agreement. Kim deserve far superior PCS but wasn't given in Sochi. I am also a little sick and tired of the argument Yuna put in technically poor program, she has always put in the max she can do without the injury inducing 3loop. She has not dumbed down her content with what she can do within the new rules! 3x 3lutzs/combos including one in the short against the technically poorer 3t3t combo from Sotnikova. Put it this way. If the FS event is truly FREE, to allow unlimited 3As, 2As, 3Lz3Ts etc.. Who in the world would have a chance to beat her? With her 90%+ consistency in difficult combos in particular. Those in charge of ISU had to change numerous rules post Vancouver that put limit on her scoring opportunities to achieve this, as well as minimise any PCS differences through a clear slanted judging panel.
Besides, I have never argued about Alina's TES at any point in my posts, it is the PCS difference which is being scrutinized here in relativity, which you admitted yourself Alina is rather Juniorish, so what is the problem? The clips illustrate themselves, let people make their own minds up.
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- Joined
- Dec 18, 2014
Balanced program has nothing to do with time structure, in terms of frontloading and backloading. It is connected only with ice surface, in terms of placing of the elements to the ice... To explain to you - If balanced program suppose to mean what you are claiming (and some others) there would be no need for judging composition mark in different competitions for the same program from the same skater - they are looking the same in that way from competition to competition. But not all ice rinks are the same. And skaters when they are nervious (or not ready) tends to jump (for example) only in one corner of the rink, or made all their spirals in the center of the rink. They are not using all ice surface for their elements of the program and that is what unbalanced program means. That kind of program will be score lower in Composition mark. When skaters (while skating and performing) doing elements in a different corners of the rink (using all ice surface) that means this exact program is performed in a balance way... Backloading elements is harder to do, so its awarded more...
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- Jun 21, 2003
Everybody is doing it. At this competition, 12 of the top 13 put the majority of their jumping passes after the half-way mark. This is the opposite of originality.
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- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
Watching these programs like this was actually really interesting, and I agree with most of your points - though I don't think it entirely has to do with backloading. (FYI, watched with the sound off - wanted to get an idea of visual impact only).
Alina: The first half of the program is not very good from this angle, I agree (I liked it more up close on the normal TV cut). The first half of the program has little ice coverage, and really lacks interesting or impactful choreography. Agree that she seems to be conserving energy for the second half. I actually found the second half of the program to be very strong, explosive, and the ice coverage there was better.
I don't hate the backloading, but I'd prefer to see a stronger first half. I think it would actually be a really neat strategy to use the first half of the program to interpret the heck out of music, do a ton of great choreography that we rarely get to see anymore, show us a mesmerizing spiral sequence and ham it up with the audience - and then have a jumpfest. But this isn't what Alina's doing, though it could be a route they head down as she improves. Give us a jump-free first half that is so beautiful that no one will care that there are no jumps.
Her bent back made her skating look very labored from this angle.
Marin: Her ice coverage is indeed superior to Alina's from this angle. But her jumps suffer. They look tiny from this angle - Alina's didn't. But her excellent posture (especially in comparison to Alina) made her skating look more effortless. But geez, without the music, this program is kind of a snoozefest. I mean, the program is designed with music in mind, but take away the musicality and Marin's performance seems way less impressive (whereas Alina's really didn't). It's kind of a compliment to Marin's impressive musicality and how well the choreography interprets the music, but it also means that Marin's skating, for me, lacks a wow factor without it.
Eun Soo: Totally lost against the ice in white. Just saying. But her ice coverage is superior to the other two girls, and sometimes her speed is, too. She's not as fluid as Marin, but close. She still needs to work on her posture - there's some hunching/bending, especially going into elements. I also had the impression of more two-foot skating than the other girls. Enjoyed her jumps much more than Marin's.
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- Apr 1, 2014
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- Dec 28, 2005
So how small are the small medals??
Here's a good pic for comparison https://www.instagram.com/p/BDOfu0KjX0f/?taken-by=m_a_r_i_y_&hl=en
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2013
What a funny post.
Quit arguing for the sake of arguing just to be in disagreement with known Yuna fan will ya? When all you have expressed is that we are actually in general agreement. Kim deserve far superior PCS but wasn't given in Sochi. I am also a little sick and tired of the argument Yuna put in technically poor program, she has always put in the max she can do without the injury inducing 3loop. She has not dumbed down her content with what she can do within the new rules! 3x 3lutzs/combos including one in the short against the technically poorer 3t3t combo from Sotnikova. Put it this way. If the FS event is truly FREE, to allow unlimited 3As, 2As, 3Lz3Ts etc.. Who in the world would have a chance to beat her? With her 90%+ consistency in difficult combos in particular. Those in charge of ISU had to change numerous rules post Vancouver that put limit on her scoring opportunities to achieve this, as well as minimise any PCS differences through a clear slanted judging panel.
Besides, I have never argued about Alina's TES at any point in my posts, it is the PCS difference which is being scrutinized here in relativity, which you admitted yourself Alina is rather Juniorish, so what is the problem? The clips illustrate themselves, let people make their own minds up.
Really? All you did in that longwinded post was attacked Zagitova's supposed technical deficiency. I can't believe someone who'd say that to someone who backloads 3-3's, has difficult entrances and tanos to boot. Honestly complaining about a well landed 62 PCS program that had a very difficult jump layout is just pure nitpicking. Also don't assume I also think Kim deserved higher PCS than Sotnikova in Sochi far from it but I won't get into details as its already been discussed ad nauseam and talking over the points again is rather pointless.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
Hey, everyone is free to nitpick. Like I have always nitpicked on everyone's pcs when I think they are plainly wrong because I happens to enjoy the artistic side of the sport more and believe skaters should able to compete artistically not just technically. You are certainly welcome to nitpick my posts if makes you feel better
but at least be make an honest argument.I love Don Quixote, both music and ballet, so I watched Alina's program several times. What I loved so much about this program was that all the superb jumps were done on music accents. And that 3LZ3L was insane. The only thing I would have done in that program was throw one triple jump (Lz or F) in the beginning, before or after the first spin. The program would be more balanced. Other than this, I have no problem with the back loading, as the jumps were so well integrated in Minkus' music.
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
I am quite impressed by the way she lands her jumps on the exact notes. It is not easy at all. And her tano + ribbon actually looks nice.
For next season, I hope she will move her 3lz3lo combo into the first half. It might look bigger than she is doing in the second half.
I think Marin can do 3lz3lo or 3F3lo as well. Maybe she will do it next season.
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- Joined
- Dec 29, 2013
I sort of agree but I do think the technical side is the most important and should be closer to 75 percent of the score so maybe I don't agree.
What actually bugs me isn't final PCS scores. I mean the final score is an average of multiple judges from unique backgrounds with countless influences.....cultural and even just rooted in fundamental differences in how skills are weighted. I can respect that. What bugs me is when not one single judge agrees with me. I don't care if I'm an anomaly and all that but when not one judge scores someone like Nastya Gubanova's JGPF FS which is ripe with variation of speed, interpretation, and choreography higher in PCS than Alina's then that's when I start to think that my interests are not valued in the sport anymore. I don't get mad though.....just less interested in the sport as a whole. :giveup: Just give me one judge :giveup:
Feeling:
Alienated
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This discussion begins on the premise that a) no rule changes will occur and b) Zagitova and Evgenia will continue consistently landing difficult, backloaded jumps. The next natural assumption is that other skaters will have to challenge themselves by following the same scheme in order to contend. While it is difficult, I'm thinking (or betting) that some of these top girls will be able to pull it off. Managing 3 more jumps in the 2nd half over a few years is not 'multiple quads next season'.
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