Things that make me sick to hear.
2017 Jr Worlds Ladies FS
- Thread starter dorispulaski
- Start date
Things that make me sick to hear.
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2014
Eteri also has an "ideal body type" for her skaters, and she said Polina was growing too big/tall for them, but they decided to keep her anyway.
I wonder if that would still be true after this week
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
I actually enjoyed Alina's performance. Her rippons look nice and adds some variation to the usual fly swatter....plus her Lz/F looks really good. Even if I don't like the X-backloading or the half OTBT....
Overall, everyone on the podium brought something different that we could all admire.
Yeah, you have spoken my mind, shiroKJ!
To say the least, Zagitova saved the Russian team at this Junior event. Very good competitions among these top 3 girls!!!
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- Joined
- May 19, 2011
Finally caught up with the ladies FS. My quick thoughts:
Alina: She's a technical beast, that's for sure. I'm not a fan of the obvious point-whoring but she does it and does it well. Hate the game, not the player... To her credit she makes tano & rippon jumps look nice and not distracting. I did like how several of her jumps are landed on accents of the music but the end of the program is just from one jump to the other. It's impressive and she did her job here...but the skating purist in me wants to throw rocks at her for winning over Marin.:gaah:
Marin: Man on man, she was breathtaking. IMO Marin was so far beyond anyone else in the competition when it came to polish, presentation, emotion, finesse, elegance, grace and artistry. There was no comparison. I didn't expect her to put up a fight for her title but she came out swinging and didn't go down without a fight. She was exquisite. I'm so excited to see her continue to grow. I hope she can lock down this kind of consistency moving forward. She'd be a force to be reckoned with.
Kaori: Definitely a surprise to see her on the podium but I'm happy to see her deliver her best as well and end up on the podium. Go Japan!
Eunsoo: SO happy to see her deliver so well. I've had my eye on her all season and I was hoping to see her have a good outing here. I expected her to get top 6 if she skated well but thanks to two-thirds of the Russian team imploding, she has comes in 4th. Really excited to see her develop too. Of all of the skaters who have come out of Korea Eunsoo reminds me of Yuna the most. She has a spark about her when she performs. I love her jumps, I love her personality...very happy to see her place so well.
Polina: I'm guessing she's still not done recovering from whatever injury she had. I really expected her to fight for gold here. Definitely disappointing.
Stanislava: Not a good outing for her either.
Overall it was a very strong competition. The top 6 put on a really great show.
Alina: She's a technical beast, that's for sure. I'm not a fan of the obvious point-whoring but she does it and does it well. Hate the game, not the player... To her credit she makes tano & rippon jumps look nice and not distracting. I did like how several of her jumps are landed on accents of the music but the end of the program is just from one jump to the other. It's impressive and she did her job here...but the skating purist in me wants to throw rocks at her for winning over Marin.:gaah:
Marin: Man on man, she was breathtaking. IMO Marin was so far beyond anyone else in the competition when it came to polish, presentation, emotion, finesse, elegance, grace and artistry. There was no comparison. I didn't expect her to put up a fight for her title but she came out swinging and didn't go down without a fight. She was exquisite. I'm so excited to see her continue to grow. I hope she can lock down this kind of consistency moving forward. She'd be a force to be reckoned with.
Kaori: Definitely a surprise to see her on the podium but I'm happy to see her deliver her best as well and end up on the podium. Go Japan!
Eunsoo: SO happy to see her deliver so well. I've had my eye on her all season and I was hoping to see her have a good outing here. I expected her to get top 6 if she skated well but thanks to two-thirds of the Russian team imploding, she has comes in 4th. Really excited to see her develop too. Of all of the skaters who have come out of Korea Eunsoo reminds me of Yuna the most. She has a spark about her when she performs. I love her jumps, I love her personality...very happy to see her place so well.
Polina: I'm guessing she's still not done recovering from whatever injury she had. I really expected her to fight for gold here. Definitely disappointing.
Stanislava: Not a good outing for her either.
Overall it was a very strong competition. The top 6 put on a really great show.
Eteri also has an "ideal body type" for her skaters, and she said Polina was growing too big/tall for them, but they decided to keep her anyway.
I wonder if that would still be true after this week
That's just....awful.
ita.
I remember this post in her fan thread. So it was exclusively when necessary. Eteri and her mother wouldn't have talked about it if it wasn't a big thing imo. And of course they had to stop this at some point after the Olympics, you can't postpone growth forever without damage.
I understand why they did it, I'm sure Yulia really wanted it. What I didn't like is that Yulia was so heavily criticized when she finally gained weight. That she had no self-control and stuff, that was disgusting.
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- Joined
- Feb 28, 2012
http://www.asahi.com/articles/ASK3L7VN0K3LUTQP03C.html
Alina said she didn't know if she would compete in Senior field next season. She also said, "It was hard to skate after Marin. I knew I couldn't make any mistake. I was nervous but I'm glad that I could get the title".
Kudos to her she didnt look nervous at all and I was at the edge of my seat shouting to her "Come on Alina"..there was really pressure on her part after Marin skated because the japanese fans went wild after it and she's the only russian left that has a chance to medal..
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- Dec 29, 2011
It's 'betting against them' to say I don't think they could all pull off such a backloaded program? Puh, then how dare you bet against them by thinking not all of these ladies will have multiple quads next season. I'd rather say it's normal to go by what a skater is actually doing, but I guess YMMV.
And if FS trends don't happen in 1-2 seasons, why are you already crying about the ladies not having any other choice than to backload in the future? It's nothing but speculation. And again, I would like to adjust the 2nd half rule to get more incentive for more balanced programs in general too, but I find the outcry over how 'everyone will only backload' in the near future to be overdramatic and unrealistic.
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2015
Ladies Single Skating but in Russian language, transliteration from Женское одиночное катание
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- Jan 29, 2017
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- Nov 8, 2015
Спасибо
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2017
Exactly my thoughts when I watched the medal ceremony
I was actually watching the 2010 Jr Worlds medal ceremony (Tumblr got me there for some reason) and apparently tiny, tiny medals with really thick ribbons has been a staple of Junior Worlds for ages.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I don't think that it is overdramatic and unrealistic to try to project the direction that the sport will take in the near future. Now that a few skaters have led the way, the most prominent being Evgenia Medvedeva, everyone will try to emulate the most successful. A backloaded program, though taxing in terms of stamina, is not beyond the reach of lots of skaters, given the proper motivation.
In the LP Zagitova scored an extra 4.6 points in second half bonuses. To me, it is not outrageous to imagine that a slew of youngsters and their coaches will say, "Hey, we woudn't mind going for an extra 4.6 points," and sacrificing other aspects of the program to get it. If we think that this is a danger to the sport, the time to head if off is now, not to wait until more skaters actually can pull the trick off.
To me, it's this whole points thing that is causing these discussions. At first, you could get just as many points for doing a jump early rather than late, and it was easier. So everyone front-loaded their programs.
Then they gave extra points for jumping in the second half. So now (or soon) all the top guns will be backloading their programs as much as they are able.
If the ISU passed a rule that said, say, only 3 backloaded jumps per program will receive the bonus, then every skater will go 4 and 3. It's just like, if you give a bonus for a Tano, you will see a surge of Tanos. If you give a double bonus for a two-arm Tano, then you will see a burst of two-arm Tanos.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
It is interesting to observe from these vantage points.
EunSoo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRPQm-189Hc
Marin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbVMn_kvm6E
Alina
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbVMn_kvm6E
Play clips side by side. You can see the imbalance of Alina's choreographic program more fully.
Alina's program construct consist of time wasting, slow spins, poses from same regions, and rarely cover the rink was visibly saving energy for the 2nd half, while others good use of the full length and width from the get go. Where they were able to spread the locations where they are to deliver their elements better. Also after half way point, Alina's 'jump sequences' one after another are all from the same counter direction, covering half of the rink, it hardly qualifies multi-directional skating and good coverage. Surprisingly, I found Eunsoon has the best coverage with many times skated closer to the boards, and looks to have covered the longest distance in terms of actual skating, and she placed elements at a different location of the rink with good balance. Poorest coverage had been from Alina.
It is sad to see when people follows the general guidelines for good choreography and balanced content don't get rewarded.
Had they all know known these are unimportant then everyone could have trained for backloading their jumps instead of striving for good balanced choreography with multi-directional skating, coverage, interpretation, musicality, and attention to detail etc.. All these efforts for nothing. I must admit, this kind of happenings remind me or Yuna Kim vs Miki Ando at WC 2011 all over again...Arrghh...!!
EunSoo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRPQm-189Hc
Marin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbVMn_kvm6E
Alina
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbVMn_kvm6E
Play clips side by side. You can see the imbalance of Alina's choreographic program more fully.
Alina's program construct consist of time wasting, slow spins, poses from same regions, and rarely cover the rink was visibly saving energy for the 2nd half, while others good use of the full length and width from the get go. Where they were able to spread the locations where they are to deliver their elements better. Also after half way point, Alina's 'jump sequences' one after another are all from the same counter direction, covering half of the rink, it hardly qualifies multi-directional skating and good coverage. Surprisingly, I found Eunsoon has the best coverage with many times skated closer to the boards, and looks to have covered the longest distance in terms of actual skating, and she placed elements at a different location of the rink with good balance. Poorest coverage had been from Alina.
It is sad to see when people follows the general guidelines for good choreography and balanced content don't get rewarded.
Had they all know known these are unimportant then everyone could have trained for backloading their jumps instead of striving for good balanced choreography with multi-directional skating, coverage, interpretation, musicality, and attention to detail etc.. All these efforts for nothing. I must admit, this kind of happenings remind me or Yuna Kim vs Miki Ando at WC 2011 all over again...Arrghh...!!
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- Joined
- Jan 24, 2015
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2011
Why are you so sure about that?
Compared to what? Having all the jumps in the first half? But nobody does that. The bonus she gets from it compared to others is smaller than that.
Or compared to Marin? Alina has a BV that is 3.63 higher than Marins. If Marin would adopt the backloading everything strategy, she'd gain 1.56 points more (putting 3F3T and 3Lz in the 2nd half). But that isn't even half of their BV difference. And more importantly, if Marin just loses a bit of quality on her jumps because of the backloading and loses like a GOE point on each, she loses 1.4 points - and the backloading got her nothing. It's not just about doing jumps in the 2nd half, it's about getting them around and with quality.
The main difference in BV between Alina and Marin is in which jumps they are repeating - where Marin does a 2nd 3T, Alina repeats the 3Lz. That is a 1.7 points difference - it's bigger than the additional difference more backloading would cause. So wouldn't skaters maybe want to work on repeating harder jumps or learning the 3-3Lo combos then? I'd say the message to Marin would be at least as much: learn your 3Lz3Lo.
Maybe I haven't made it clear enough, but it's 2 points I'm arguing about: 1.) the original post made backloading sound to easy IMO and 2.) a lot of people overestimate how many points backloading actually gives those skaters in my perception (which, both combined, results for me in thinking we won't see skaters all adopt that strategy). It's really not all that much. It's just one little part in why Evgenia & Alina are so successful, which also includes a.) checking the GOE boxes, b.) checking the PCS boxes, and most importantly c.) being consistent. If skaters only backload more without those other 3 points, I don't think it would give them much.
And I still agree that I would like to see changes to the 2nd half rule that actually favors balanced programs more. I just don't think the 'everybody will do the evil backloading soon' narrative is justified.
Both Marin and Alina had gorgeous skating. I love Alina's Don Quixote. I have to constantly remember is only 14 years old. There are no accomplished ballerinas at this age. I think that her balletic movements are quite good, and Russia is well known to use ballet training for figure skating and gymnastics. And Russian ballet is among the best in the world.
Marin was also mesmerizing. Whit two perfect programs, it's difficult to chose a winner. I think that Alina looked a little better...maybe she is a taller skater, I don't know. Backloading is a strategy to get more points. So are tano jumps. I don't understand skaters that do tano jumps and fall. But this works for both Alina and Evgenya. I even think Alina looks better when she does jumps with both arms above.
Marin was also mesmerizing. Whit two perfect programs, it's difficult to chose a winner. I think that Alina looked a little better...maybe she is a taller skater, I don't know. Backloading is a strategy to get more points. So are tano jumps. I don't understand skaters that do tano jumps and fall. But this works for both Alina and Evgenya. I even think Alina looks better when she does jumps with both arms above.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I am not 100% sure. But even if only a few do it (successfully backload all their jumps) it is still worth examining if this is really what we want the rules to be encouraging.
Compared to doing away with the second half bonus rule altogether. Under the current rules, skaters who do not backload as much as possible are leaving points on the table.
Marin also backloads, though not quite so severely. Do we want rules in place that will all but guarantee this?
For (a), I guess I do think that is is relatively easy to move at least a couple of extra jumps form the first half to the back half. Nothing wrong with this, except that it would be better to place the jumps where they make the most sense in terms of the musical structure and choreographic vision, rather than placing them willi-nilli where they can get an extra tenth of a point.
For (b), yes the point-gain potential is small compared to other considerations.
Still, people -- not just figure skaters -- will do anything for points.
I don't know about evil, but I think that the day of reckoning has already come. At this very competition, in the top thirteen all but one (Sakamoto) did the majority of their jumps in the second half. I do not see anything wrong with asking if this is what we want to build into the rules.
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