Gracie Gold opens up about body standards

[jenaj]

Those women all have women's bodies as adults, but they are also smaller than the average adult woman, especially Kwan and Wagner who are on the shorter side of average.

The statistics would look very different if you look at all elite skaters who competed as seniors internationally, or nationally in countries where skating as popular, vs. looking at all skaters who start training early and master jumps up to double lutz, to see how many of the latter group ever land a clean double axel or triple jump let alone reach elite levels or keep those jumps by age 18 or 20.

What statistics? There are none. It is all anecdotal evidence. And for what it's worth anecdotally, there are a lot of skinny kids who never get an axel or triple jump.

 

[jenaj]

This.

Any sport is going to self-select for some sort of biological qualities that gives its athletes an advantage. Sure, Michael Phelps trains his butt off, but his body is also just crazy: http://gawker.com/5038018/michael-phelps-freakish-physique-explained

If you were to pick and choose genetics for the perfect human swimmer, it would look like Michael Phelps.

We aren't going to see any 6-foot tall ladies winning Olympic medals in figure skating.

Weight, of course, is much more complicated than the majority of other aspects of the human body, in that it is partly biological and partly due to lifestyle choices. If you're genetically-predisposed to being overweight (but nothing as dramatic as, say, a glandular problem or something), diet and exercise will keep you fit and trim. But you're going to have to work harder than someone genetically pre-disposed to being thin, and the person who is genetically pre-disposed to being thin, if they make the same healthy lifestyle choices you do, will probably have an advantage over you in sports where smaller is better.

It's even more complicated in a sport like figure skating, where pre-pubescent bodies happen to be better built for certain elements. Then once a person begins growing into whatever their genes decide they're going to be, there are going to be problems.

It does make one think that maybe senior competition should start at 18. Rather than allowing the sport to self-select its best candidates after they've already been presented to the entire world as one of the best of the best (like Yulia in Sochi), let them figure out as juniors, when the stakes are lower, whether or not they should or could make a career out of figure skating, based in part on what their bodies are telling them.

If Yulia had not been able to skate at the senior level until she was 18, it's possible she would've quit the sport at 16 or 17 when her jumps began to fail her, decided it wasn't worth it. She would've picked up other hobbies, focused on something else, and maybe even still love figure skating as a fun hobby instead of a career. She wouldn't have had the Sochi success, or faced the pressure, or become an international superstar. But she might also be a much happier and healthier human being.

(I really got going on a tangent there.)

I don't agree that figure skating self-selects skinny body types because those better skaters have those body types. I think it is in large part a matter of aesthetics. Good skaters who are heavier succumb to the pressure to lose weight if they want to compete at the highest levels. Skaters do seem to be shorter in height than average, but then there are tall or tall for skating skaters like Carolina Kostner and Yuna Kim. So there is evidence on both sides of the coin.

 

[andromache]

I don't agree that figure skating self-selects skinny body types because those better skaters have those body types. I think it is in large part a matter of aesthetics. Good skaters who are heavier succumb to the pressure to lose weight if they want to compete at the highest levels. Skaters do seem to be shorter in height than average, but then there are tall or tall for skating skaters like Carolina Kostner and Yuna Kim. So there is evidence on both sides of the coin.

Carolina Kostner is really the only skater who is taller than the average woman. She's the exception to the rule, really, and it's unlikely she would've achieved what she has if it were not for having some of the best basic skating skills and jump technique in the business. Because of her height, she has had to excel beyond the shorter girls in a few things in order to beat them.

Who are these talented, "heavier" skaters who succumbed to the pressure to lose weight? Where are the "heavier" skaters with triple-triples?

There are many aspects of skating that anyone with any body type can be amazing at. I don't think jumps are one of those things.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

There are many aspects of skating that anyone with any body type can be amazing at. I don't think jumps are one of those things.

A woman's body is terribly designed to succeed at jumping triples. Despite Ashley's strict training and diet regimen, any top junior can out-jump her handily. So, as a coach of skater in her 20's who wants do perform athletic feats that are more suited to teenage bodies, people like Rafael probably find it difficult to balance fitness with making sure the skaters are making healthy decisions. It doesn't seem like Frank found that right balance with Gracie, and maybe we're seeing the delayed effects of that now.

 

[jf12]

Who are these talented, "heavier" skaters who succumbed to the pressure to lose weight? Where are the "heavier" skaters with triple-triples?

There are many aspects of skating that anyone with any body type can be amazing at. I don't think jumps are one of those things.

Liza Tuktamysheva is one example of someone who was stick thin as a younger competitor, and experienced body changes, and in 2015 was able to come back, build muscle and adjust technique with better jumps than ever. If you look at all the ladies who have done 3a in competition, some of them are more musuclar than skinny. Also for men who do quads, you have some of the more solidly built guys like Kolyada and Max Aaron, and some string beans like Jin and Hanyu. Of course, in the population of 'regular' people, all of these people are thin in comparison.

 

[skylark]

I don't agree that figure skating self-selects skinny body types because those better skaters have those body types. I think it is in large part a matter of aesthetics. Good skaters who are heavier succumb to the pressure to lose weight if they want to compete at the highest levels.

Ashley Wagner has a slightly different take:

"Skating is this very strange balance: You have to be as strong as you physically can but as light as you can. So you have to be really smart about where you get your strength because everything that you have on your body you're going to have to haul up into the air. So even though we might not be seen as very muscular athletes, we're very strong for how much we weigh."http://www.espn.com/olympics/story/...lks-concussions-costumes-collisions-body-2017​

Ashley goes on to say that "Physically, skating caters to a very young body type" and to talk about why longevity is rare. Also about when she was a mid-teen-ager and coming up to the high levels, she did too much cycling and didn't do herself much good ... because she felt a lot of pressure to be tiny, and most of her competitors had a naturally slender body type, as opposed to her own "sturdy Norwegian genes."

She goes on to talk about concussions and why she wanted to do ESPN's Body Issue.

 

[skylark]

It's even more complicated in a sport like figure skating, where pre-pubescent bodies happen to be better built for certain elements. Then once a person begins growing into whatever their genes decide they're going to be, there are going to be problems.

It does make one think that maybe senior competition should start at 18. Rather than allowing the sport to self-select its best candidates after they've already been presented to the entire world as one of the best of the best (like Yulia in Sochi),

Carlo Fassi was prophetic when he argued that getting rid of compulsory figures would result in all skaters spending much more time on jumps at an early age, rather than the basic figure skating skills. And he predicted it would result in "little girls jumping" having the advantage. He preferred seeing women skate.

Men have more muscle mass than women, so puberty and skating into their mid-20s age is favorable, not disadvantageous to them. Not that the men don't have their challenges, but it's completely different.

 

[andromache]

Liza Tuktamysheva is one example of someone who was stick thin as a younger competitor, and experienced body changes, and in 2015 was able to come back, build muscle and adjust technique with better jumps than ever. If you look at all the ladies who have done 3a in competition, some of them are more musuclar than skinny. Also for men who do quads, you have some of the more solidly built guys like Kolyada and Max Aaron, and some string beans like Jin and Hanyu. Of course, in the population of 'regular' people, all of these people are thin in comparison.

This is exactly what I am talking about. I think it's rare you'll see someone at the elite level of figure skating who is genetically pre-disposed to be anything but some level of what normal people consider to be "thin." Just like in pro basketball you will almost never see someone who is considered by normal people to be short.

I recall in a bout of nastiness that Averbukh said something about Yulia's mother's body type (which I've never personally seen, sooooo), and, as much as I don't like it, I do get his point. Yulia seems genetically pre-disposed to having hips and breasts. These things make rotating jumps more difficult. With the advantage of superior jump technique and enough muscle and training, you can do the jumps even with a fuller figure. Now, if you're genetically pre-disposed to having not only an "average" body, but perhaps even being slightly heavier than average - you can of course eat healthy and exercise and look amazing and beautiful and thin - but thin enough to jump triples?

We don't have children killing themselves to try to get taller for basketball or to get longer arms for swimming, but we have way too many girls (and boys) killing themselves to get thinner for skating. And the pressure they feel to be thin is going to be soooo much higher and more dangerous and sad when you're formerly a prepubescent wunderkind whose adult body maybe isn't made to jump triples.

Height for boys tends to be more of an issue than weight. Luckily, by the time most boys go senior, they're mostly done growing tall. The major exception to this off the top of my head is Nam Nguyen, and he's definitely had a tough road.

 

[sheetz]

It's absolutely true that thinner objects rotate more easily than thicker objects. In physics it's called "moment of inertia," and in this regard thinner skaters do have an advantage. However, it is also possible to land difficult jumps by being very strong and powerful (think Midori or Tonya). Those two didn't have the fast rotations in the air but both of them had tremendous height on their jumps.

 

[sarama]

Has anyone gone back and looked at how Gracie's build has changed several times in her career?

I think that Gracie had already her "adult body" when she became a factor in the figure skating world (2012 Junior Worlds, I'd say). And that was a great thing IMHO: she was a powerful skater with a powerful body, high jumps, fully rotated. That's why in the following years her jumps never disappeared, like it happens to many teenagers. Nothing had to be changed, just polish her and give her some consistency (basically what happened to Daleman). Both girls are never going to be as delicate and refined as Mao, but that's okay, it's not who they are. Unlike Gabby, Gracie CLEARLY never found a team that could manage her well: I always found weird that most off-seasons (during her Frank Carroll era) Gracie was obviously fuller, but would look way slimmer in just a few weeks as soon as the season started. For the longest time I thought she just could gain and lose weight very easily, but I am starting to believe that there was already more to it

 

[andromache]

I always found weird that most off-seasons (during her Frank Carroll era) Gracie was obviously fuller, but would look way slimmer in just a few weeks as soon as the season started. For the longest time I thought she just could gain and lose weight very easily, but I am starting to believe that there was already more to it

I actually think this might be pretty normal? Remember last summer when everyone was saying Evgenia had gotten fat and was done, based on a show program where she looked a little more filled-out and didn't land everything flawlessly?

The smaller/thinner someone is, the more you'll notice a bit of a weight gain. During the off-season, it seems normal that someone isn't going to be in full-on training mode, and their body will reflect that. Once they get back into full-on training mode, those pounds melt away.

 

[karne]

Jenny's coaches actually knew she had an eating disorder, and told her to put off treatment until the Olympics were over.

Who were her coaches? They should be immediately deregistered, barred and struck off for life. That is disgraceful.

Liza Tuktamysheva is one example of someone who was stick thin as a younger competitor, and experienced body changes, and in 2015 was able to come back, build muscle and adjust technique with better jumps than ever. If you look at all the ladies who have done 3a in competition, some of them are more musuclar than skinny.

Liza is my prime example of how technique wins. Even when she was adjusting to body changes she never stopped rotating her jumps. And Mishin's attitude was perfect. I can't remember the exact wording, but in one interview he was just like "eh, girls turn into women, if you try to fight it you make it worse, so you just ride it out". His attitude was basically to let nature take its course. And he was proved right.

Also for men who do quads, you have some of the more solidly built guys like Kolyada and Max Aaron, and some string beans like Jin and Hanyu. Of course, in the population of 'regular' people, all of these people are thin in comparison.

This is an interesting point. When I had the opportunity to meet Max in person, he was out of his skates, in regular street clothes. And my first thought was, "My god, he's tiny!" Not just short, but very, very slim. He's labelled a "bulky" skater but in regular clothes you don't notice that, just that he doesn't seem to have an ounce of fat on him anywhere.

And I remember when he was quoted saying that he was going to try a new diet to try and lean down his body proportions...and I remember when one US man let the cat out of the bag saying the USFS doesn't want its men's skaters too bulky. It's not just the ladies in danger.

 

[jenaj]

Carolina Kostner is really the only skater who is taller than the average woman. She's the exception to the rule, really, and it's unlikely she would've achieved what she has if it were not for having some of the best basic skating skills and jump technique in the business. Because of her height, she has had to excel beyond the shorter girls in a few things in order to beat them.

Who are these talented, "heavier" skaters who succumbed to the pressure to lose weight? Where are the "heavier" skaters with triple-triples?

There are many aspects of skating that anyone with any body type can be amazing at. I don't think jumps are one of those things.

It is all hypothetical, as was the suggestion that the skaters who never made it to the elite level had the wrong body type. The point is, all of this is a sort of "conventional wisdom" that people just believe because they believe it. What does seem true is that the optimal years for female skaters are between 15 and 25 and that, in general, skaters, like gymnasts, are shorter than average. There are exceptions, of course. But there really isn't evidence that stick-thin bodies are more optimal for jumping. And it is also true, as Jenny and others have pointed out, that there is a culture of thinness in skating that has led to widespread eating disorders. We'll never know if the thinner the skater, the better the jumps as long as all elite skaters strive for extreme skinniness. I am not talking about being overweight. I am just questioning whether there is any solid evidence that being extremely thin, as many skaters are, really helps jumping ability or whether it just improves a skater's "look," much like it does for actresses and models.

 

[sarama]

I actually think this might be pretty normal? Remember last summer when everyone was saying Evgenia had gotten fat and was done, based on a show program where she looked a little more filled-out and didn't land everything flawlessly?

The smaller/thinner someone is, the more you'll notice a bit of a weight gain. During the off-season, it seems normal that someone isn't going to be in full-on training mode, and their body will reflect that. Once they get back into full-on training mode, those pounds melt away.

I can't really remember the first time I noticed that but, she was like doing a summer competition or a senior b and everyone was like "oh wow Gracie has gained a lot of weight" and then just a few weeks later she was at another competition (maybe a grand prix) and she was way thinner, and many people were saying that the only way to do that is to reduce your fluid intake. And then I just starting noticing that pattern.

It could be 2014 Nebelhorn-2014 Skate America (but I could be wrong)

 

[andromache]

It is all hypothetical, as was the suggestion that the skaters who never made it to the elite level had the wrong body type. The point is, all of this is a sort of "conventional wisdom" that people just believe because they believe it. What does seem true is that the optimal years for female skaters are between 15 and 25 and that, in general, skaters, like gymnasts, are shorter than average. There are exceptions, of course. But there really isn't evidence that stick-thin bodies are more optimal for jumping. And it is also true, as Jenny and others have pointed out, that there is a culture of thinness in skating that has led to widespread eating disorders. We'll never know if the thinner the skater, the better the jumps as long as all elite skaters strive for extreme skinniness. I am not talking about being overweight. I am just questioning whether there is any solid evidence that being extremely thin, as many skaters are, really helps jumping ability or whether it just improves a skater's "look," much like it does for actresses and models.

Your statements about height and age are as much "conventional wisdom" as mine are about body type.

Not all skaters strive for extreme skinniness, I hope. I think Mirai Nagasu, for example, looks more muscular and well-built than rail thin. I also think Caroline Zhang went through pretty dramatic body changes as she aged - she's one of the most full-figured elite skaters I can think of, she's beautiful. Joshi Helgesson, too. None of these girls are the best jumpers in the world (but KUDOS to Mirai on her triple axel). But then there were skaters like Midori, who I think must've had something amazing and freaky about her hips or pelvis - the spring she had in her jumps hasn't been replicated by anyone since.

But as for rotating - I'm not going to say it's extreme skinniness that makes it happen, but I think that, in general and with plenty of exceptions, the more your body is like a prepubescent's, the better you can rotate, for most ladies. We are seeing 13-14 year old adorable babies with quads!

The better your jump technique, the more height and distance you get, the less you have to rely on being rail-thin (though lightness helps with getting into the air, you've got to have power and muscle there too - Shizuka Arakawa was no waif, but she had lovely jumps because of those incredible thigh muscles. It's always wowed me that someone as waify and thin as Yuna Kim had such huge jumps - she just looked as though she would have enough muscle to get so high and far!)

ETA: That said, there is, of course, a culture of thinness in skating that goes back decades, long before women were even doing triple jumps, and is probably rooted in the same aesthetic that rules ballet, another athletic pursuit where eating disorders are commonplace.

 

[jenaj]

Your statements about height and age are as much "conventional wisdom" as mine are about body type.

Not all skaters strive for extreme skinniness, I hope. I think Mirai Nagasu, for example, looks more muscular and well-built than rail thin. I also think Caroline Zhang went through pretty dramatic body changes as she aged - she's one of the most full-figured elite skaters I can think of, she's beautiful. Joshi Helgesson, too. None of these girls are the best jumpers in the world (but KUDOS to Mirai on her triple axel). But then there were skaters like Midori, who I think must've had something amazing and freaky about her hips or pelvis - the spring she had in her jumps hasn't been replicated by anyone since.

But as for rotating - I'm not going to say it's extreme skinniness that makes it happen, but I think that, in general and with plenty of exceptions, the more your body is like a prepubescent's, the better you can rotate, for most ladies. We are seeing 13-14 year old adorable babies with quads!

The better your jump technique, the more height and distance you get, the less you have to rely on being rail-thin (though lightness helps with getting into the air, you've got to have power and muscle there too - Shizuka Arakawa was no waif, but she had lovely jumps because of those incredible thigh muscles. It's always wowed me that someone as waify and thin as Yuna Kim had such huge jumps - she just looked as though she would have enough muscle to get so high and far!)

ETA: That said, there is, of course, a culture of thinness in skating that goes back decades, long before women were even doing triple jumps, and is probably rooted in the same aesthetic that rules ballet, another athletic pursuit where eating disorders are commonplace.

I disagree about height and age being just "conventional wisdom." There is objective evidence that most elite skaters are shorter than average and that, even before there were age limits for younger skaters, 15-25 seemed to be the optimal years for female skaters. You can't change your height or your age. You can change your weight. As for the rotation issue, it is true that the more an object is drawn into its center the faster it rotates. The skaters you mention like Mirai and Midori, however, make me question whether losing weight will help a skater's rotation significantly, since both of those skaters are a bit more muscular in build and are quick rotators. My real point is that there is an aesthetic aspect to the "ideal" body type in skating. Tonya Harding is perhaps an example of a skater who many thought did not have an ideal skater's body, despite her jumping ability.

 

[gkelly]

It's absolutely true that thinner objects rotate more easily than thicker objects. In physics it's called "moment of inertia," and in this regard thinner skaters do have an advantage. However, it is also possible to land difficult jumps by being very strong and powerful (think Midori or Tonya). Those two didn't have the fast rotations in the air but both of them had tremendous height on their jumps.

Yes, and both of them were tiny. Especially Midori. It's probably better to be short and compact/muscular than to be tall and leggy at the same weight.

But if you're both tall and larger framed, or tall and curvy, even at maximum fitness it's going to be harder to rotate in the air as quickly as a smaller skater.

It is all hypothetical, as was the suggestion that the skaters who never made it to the elite level had the wrong body type.

There are all sorts of reasons why skaters don't make it to elite level. For many the reasons have nothing to do with body type.

For others the primary reason is body type. And that doesn't only refer to being more heavy set. Height and long legs can be a problem. Large breasts can be a problem. Having a lower proportion of fast-twitch muscle fibers can be a problem (which is not directly related to visible body size/shape).

I've seen plenty of thin girls who couldn't jump high enough for triples because of other body type issues. And some larger muscular girls who could, at least up to 3S and 3T or 3Lo.

If you struggle at lower levels to master skills that come easily to other kids your age, there's more incentive to find something else to do earlier in childhood.

And many teenage girls do find themselves struggling with jumps that came easily to them before their growth spurts and quit during adolescence.

No, I don't have statistics handy. But I've spent enough years in ice rinks watching skaters grow up and come and go and seeing which ones make good progress and which ones struggle (and when) to have a better anecdotal sense than just watching the top levels can provide.

The point is, all of this is a sort of "conventional wisdom" that people just believe because they believe it. What does seem true is that the optimal years for female skaters are between 15 and 25 and that, in general, skaters, like gymnasts, are shorter than average. There are exceptions, of course.

Yes.

But there really isn't evidence that stick-thin bodies are more optimal for jumping.

Agreed. I don't think anyone here is arguing that they are. Some old-school judges and coaches might.

And it is also true, as Jenny and others have pointed out, that there is a culture of thinness in skating that has led to widespread eating disorders. We'll never know if the thinner the skater, the better the jumps as long as all elite skaters strive for extreme skinniness. I am not talking about being overweight. I am just questioning whether there is any solid evidence that being extremely thin, as many skaters are, really helps jumping ability or whether it just improves a skater's "look," much like it does for actresses and models.

I do think it's important for coaches and judges to encourage skaters to be strong and healthy, at whatever weight and body shape that translates to given their own genetics, and to reward the skills, not the body type.

What would be the best way for a coach to handle a student who had triples as a small 12-year-old and can no longer rotate them at 15? How best to be supportive of the skater maximizing her own potential and also be honest that elite-level singles competition might not be a realistic goal?


BTW, here's a thread on this topic from 4 years ago:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...e-an-ideal-quot-figure-quot-in-figure-skating

 

[TGee]

Height for boys tends to be more of an issue than weight. Luckily, by the time most boys go senior, they're mostly done growing tall. The major exception to this off the top of my head is Nam Nguyen, and he's definitely had a tough road.

Uhm, Canada has a crop of young male skaters coming up that are tall by any country's measure of normal.

Nicholas Nadeau, Roman Sadovsky and Conrad Orzel are all around 6 ft / 183 cm [even if their ISU bios haven't quite caught up...]

They've all had their growth challenges...injury for Nic, losing jumps for Roman...but their coaches kept them on the JPG circuit as long as reasonably possible.

Nam Nguyen was more exceptional in moving up to ISU seniors earlier than he had to...at first it paid off, up to national senior championship and a 5th place at Worlds, but those achievements may have made accepting the setbacks from growth all the more difficult psychologically.

Interestingly, three of these four are at the York Region Skating Academy [YRSA] in the Toronto area, including Nam. Tracy Wainman, Roman and Nam's coach and the director of skating at YRSA, who is a strong believer in using the JPG to get young skaters past peak growth and puberty.

Trach was herself the Canadian classic case of a young pre-puberty skater who was sent to senior international events --- she was at the Olympics and Worlds at 12 years old in 1980 [before lower age limits were raised]. Tracy famously lost all her jumps as she grew six inches in two years and her figure developed...She was stripped of international assignments at 14.

The incredible thing about Tracy's story is that after quitting skating for a year at 14-15 years, she returned to her old coach Ellen Burka at the Toronto Cricket Club. She had to relearn all her jumps from scratch due to changes in her body type. And then she won her second national championship, and came 9th at Worlds in 1986.

 

[tjb]

I disagree about height and age being just "conventional wisdom." There is objective evidence that most elite skaters are shorter than average and that, even before there were age limits for younger skaters, 15-25 seemed to be the optimal years for female skaters. You can't change your height or your age. You can change your weight. As for the rotation issue, it is true that the more an object is drawn into its center the faster it rotates. The skaters you mention like Mirai and Midori, however, make me question whether losing weight will help a skater's rotation significantly, since both of those skaters are a bit more muscular in build and are quick rotators. My real point is that there is an aesthetic aspect to the "ideal" body type in skating. Tonya Harding is perhaps an example of a skater who many thought did not have an ideal skater's body, despite her jumping ability.

actually, midori ito was an incredible athlete but very slow rotator, she also had many flaws in jumping technique, like bending leg. if her rotation was a little bit quicker, she would jump quads without any problems. her jumps height are unmatched by any lady in history, her triples are higher than an average men's quad (up to 70 cm). but with her slow rotation she only managed a 3a

 

[Barb]

Do you think it's a possibility that there are more thin skaters than muscular skaters because it's easier / comfortable to stop eating than exercise? I think maybe there are skaters that don't enjoy very much the work out off ice like others. I know everyone workout off the ice, but I don't think they all do the same. In no universe could anyone convince me that Yuko K. and Meagan D. do the same amount of training off the ice.