2017 GP Cup of China Mens FS

[rabbit1234]

Your data is skewed because it’s incomplete. Jason usually attempts one quad and falls, but rarely has other falls, and almost always gets a lot of positive GOE.

For example
Number of deduction

10th Lombardia Trophy 2017

Shoma UNO　　　SP　0　FP 0
Jason BROWN　　SP　1　FP 0

ISU GP 2017 Skate Canada International

Shoma UNO　　　SP　0　FP 0
Jason BROWN　　SP　0　FP 1

Take ISU Four Continents Championships 2017 and ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2017 as an example.
There are many failures of quad less competitors such as Han Yan, Brown, Chan.
Rather Nathan, hanyu and shoma are more stable with less mistake.

Please think about whether Jeffrey Battle and Plushenko performed stable performance without mistake.

 

[Ares]

Impression after rewatching (I could not watch live) but I had suspense thanks to no spoiler thread

For the first time (ever?) I was legitimately wowed by Max Aaron skate and all that despite the dreaded POTO soundtrack. There was more than jumps there and I definitely saw improvement in presentation. His performance in Free Skate was my favourite alongside Han Yan, both were very enjoyable :agree: Also big congrats on Bronze Medal for Max, I guess not many saw that happening here.

Not a fan of new programs of Boyang Jin at all sadly :noshake: And when the jumps get wonky it exposes all the lacking things. Glad that Han Yan deservedly beat him in 2nd mark, this guy has so much feeling for the music and his skating skills & carriage are exquisite. The score really should have been even higher overall. He completed his tech content which is sort of a miracle cnnsidering his past so well done!

 

[3T3T]

Sadly Men’s figure skating has become a splatfest, the JGP was very poor this year. If the Men aren’t falling they are stumbling or two footing or hands down, URing. A clean performance now is a rarity. My favourite no performance so far is Misha Ge in Rostelecom, no quads but clean triples skated with passion and commitment.

I feel that Han Yan was hard done here. He should have been on the podium. The two Americans were overscored on PCS. It’s ridiculous that Zhou can get 75 in PCS, his programmes had nothing in terms of components, just skate jump, skate jump. I like Max and he is really working hard to improve but he doesn’t deserve nearly 80. I like his costumes.

It’s nice to see Kolyada win, his free was an improvement on Russia but still there is work to be done. The 4Lz in the SP was amazing. Not sure I like either of Javier’s programmes but him being sick could be a factor.

 

[Mathman]

The competitor with few quads is the top of the list.

On the other hand, Nathan, shoma, hanyu with many quads has few falls and few failures.

Thanks for the interesting data. But I don't think we can really conclude much from it. Big quadsters like Hanyu, Uno and Chen are simply better than any of the skaters on these lists.

 

[surimi]

I'm a bit miffed that Tanaka couldn't skate to his potential after that promising short. I mean, he will probably go to the Olympics, but this was his chance to show the World he belongs there with the other two, after that disastrous Worlds. He could've made the podium. Argh!
And Javier, [...] I don't know if these two programs are such a good vehicle for the Olympic Season. Sure, Javier can sell them well, they are right up his alley, but I also think they lack power and a real 'bam' feeling so many of his older programs had.

I agree with all this so much. As for Javier's LP, I'll wait till I see it performed clean, but the SP doesn't have the magic of his previous SPs for me. I hope it was really just the unfortunate combination of possible stomach bug, jet lag and an absent Orser, that led to that performance.
As for Keiji, I'm probably the only one here, but I was content with that skate. I guess it has something to do with me having seen his Nepela LP; he was much more satisfied here, and as a result so was I. I hope he's not injured from that fall, but if I recall correctly it was his other hip that had been injured pre-Rostelecom. A few pops, but not a splatfest, and very nice performance otherwise; he's a fighter. He's never been too consistent, but neither has Mura, his main rival for the 3rd spot. Most of all I'm glad Keiji is back in the discussion for that spot, as quite a few posters were already writing him off.

As for the rest of the men, Kolyada was great despite the mistakes. I noticed so many details, expressions and gestures from him for the first time. I'm now quite sold on those programs. :luv17: Congrats to Han Yan and Max Aaron for their well-earned placements - they are not my personal favorites, but these programs were very pleasing to watch. & I'm impressed with Vincent Zhou, this was a great debut, he has some lovely quality to his movements.

 

[Heleng]

I think a lot of people are underestimating his skating skills.

He skates very fast, he has good skating skills, he stays in character and the jumping technique is among the best or the best.

And this is something we say often in Men figure skating because with all these quads even Shoma, Yuzuru and Javi have their mistakes in the free skate but they win because of the overall quality.

While i love Ge's commitment, his skating is average: always kinda slow, not the best range of movements,... i can see why judges never gave him the big marks.

Thank you, Tolstoj. I was thinking of how to express pretty much the same observations regarding Kolyada, but you said it much better than I could have. Yes, it seems that the judges reward skaters with great basic skating skills, jump technique (e.g., what Kolyada landed he landed well), and spins in the PCS, apart from TES, which influences the PCS but rightly doesn't determine it. Anyway, congrats to Mikhail for his win, to Boyang for his silver, to Han Yan for a great skate on the comeback trail, and to Max for his bronze and wonderful FP skate. That's the best I've seen Max skate and I love the program for him. Very sad for Javi, but I have faith this is a temporary slump and that he'll be at top form by the Olympics.

 

[ManyCairns]

Well, I keep blipping around through the thread and frankly don't feel there's enough excitement for Max! That was a great skate and despite being set to old warhorse music, the program for me was very watchable throughout, nice mix of presentation and athleticism. I hope Max carries this success and builds on it all the way to the Olympics.

 

[Tavi...]

For example
Number of deduction

10th Lombardia Trophy 2017

Shoma UNO　　　SP　0　FP 0
Jason BROWN　　SP　1　FP 0

ISU GP 2017 Skate Canada International

Shoma UNO　　　SP　0　FP 0
Jason BROWN　　SP　0　FP 1

Take ISU Four Continents Championships 2017 and ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2017 as an example.
There are many failures of quad less competitors such as Han Yan, Brown, Chan.
Rather Nathan, hanyu and shoma are more stable with less mistake.

Please think about whether Jeffrey Battle and Plushenko performed stable performance without mistake.

Well, since you mentioned Nathan, at 2016 Finlandia he attempted 7 quads, fell 3 times, and had net negative GOE of -8.38.

 

[Tolstoj]

Sadly Men’s figure skating has become a splatfest, the JGP was very poor this year. If the Men aren’t falling they are stumbling or two footing or hands down, URing. A clean performance now is a rarity. My favourite no performance so far is Misha Ge in Rostelecom, no quads but clean triples skated with passion and commitment.

To be honest JGP was a little disappointing especially the first 2-3 events mostly because of the lack of talents and not because of the quads.

Lots of skaters having problems with the 3A or even the 3-3 or skating a clean fs with only triples and no 3A.

Unlike Junior Ladies where you can see russians and japanese 13-14 years old skating clean 7 triples programs, the boys aren't ready for the big elements until 17-18.

 

[rabbit1234]

Thanks for the interesting data. But I don't think we can really conclude much from it. Big quadsters like Hanyu, Uno and Chen are simply better than any of the skaters on these lists.

2010 Olympic　FP
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/SEG002.HTM

total　deduction
15／24competitorS
0.625/1competitor

2014 Olympic　FP
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/SEG002.HTM

total　deduction
13／24competitorS
0.542/1competitor

The fall of 2014 Olympic, which became more quad than the 2010 Olympic, is decreasing.

 

[badknees]

I LOVE the simple costume Max chose. I am tired of the over-spangled, v-neck lycra suits. I agree he needs to ramp up the ending.

I do agree with the over-spangled costumes, but it makes Max look like he is in practice wear. Something just a bit more designed without spangles would be great.

 

[tureis]

Well, the stomach problem the ISU also reported would mostly explain Javi's disastrous showing at least. But the entire men's event was depressing overall. Kolyada's SP was good, and I was thrilled to see Han do so well in the FS. But to have just a couple of good programs among all the mediocre to nightmarish ones...

Actually, I can't even recall a time when the men's field felt so lackluster 3 GPs into the season. hwell:

 

[Icey]

This has happened in the past with me (hijacked to a fake Facebook page) and the mods have been helpful. If you go to the Announcements forum and go to the thread “Ad Reporting”, you may get assistance.

Thanks. I'll try that. Their occurring every 10 minutes or so takes a lot of the pleasure out of using the forum.

 

[Icey]

Well, I keep blipping around through the thread and frankly don't feel there's enough excitement for Max! That was a great skate and despite being set to old warhorse music, the program for me was very watchable throughout, nice mix of presentation and athleticism. I hope Max carries this success and builds on it all the way to the Olympics.

I think his achievement here is great and I hope he can keep up the momentum. He's one of those skaters who was put through the mill because he didn't meet the prevailing views of what a skater should be. They couldn't just accept and value that he was an athletic skater. So he played the game, and now seems to have found an "artistry" that suits the system, but at the same time, is true to himself.:thumbsup:

 

[karne]

gently, softly, music shall caress you
feel it, hear it, secretly possess you
open up your eyes, let your fantasies unwind...

I haven't watched it another five times this morning I swear...

 

[bixby]

So happy to see Max being on the podium. It must have felt really good for him to put it all together and come away with his personal best ever.

For the US men in the GP so far;
1. Nathan => GOLD
2. Jason => SILVER
3. Max => BRONZE

Looking nice for the Olympic team but I know ICE is very slippery. Max and Vincent will have a rematch in two weeks in FRA so we'll see. If Max makes it on the podium again, he can make a case for himself. But if Vincent delivers a clean short and long, his technical mark might put him on the podium making a case for himself. Nationals will be very interesting indeed.

Will Javier withdraw from FRA like Patrick did or will he be there and try to redeem himself?

 

[Art&Sport]

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong! Even in the short program, what was Boyang doing with PCS scores that close to Mikhail Kolyada??? :noshake: :disagree:

Yes, the venue is in China. But if that's part of the scoring then both Jason Brown and Adam Rippon should have placed 1 and 2 over Shoma Uno at Skate America last season, especially with the fact that Shoma camouflages his tech weaknesses (pre-rotations, flutzes, poor jump technique). And last season, Shoma did not have good ice coverage in one of his programs -- too much of it was performed at one end of the ice.

So, bottom line, if we are going to use politics and home venue as part of the scoring, then state it in the rules, and not be so sneaky and surreptitious. Boyang is simply put: Chinese fed's guy. He's the one they want on the podium and he's the one they are pushing. There sat Boyang in the kiss 'n cry sweating bullets because he knew how poorly he had skated the fp, and that he didn't deserve to be on the podium. For that fp performance, Boyang shoud have landed at least behind Max Aaron and maybe Vincent Zhou as well. But yeah, the event did take place in China, and it was important to ensure that Boyang got on the podium no matter how poorly he skated in the fp. However, since Boyang had been so overscored on PCS in the sp and again overscored in the fp (even despite his PCS dropping slightly), he was able to squeak past Max and stay in first place. The arena erupted, and some of those shouts were boos and disbelief.

Kolyada is the real deal, but he needs to show it consistently on the ice. How can you go out there in first place and lay an egg because two previous competitors laid eggs? Kolyada too was over-rewarded in the fp , even despite his flashes of brilliance in the fp. None of these skaters need to be smirky and act like they deserve something from the judges. Kolyada and Boyang needed to be sent a message that skating good in one program and poorly in another isn't good enough to land on the podium above another skater who skated well in both programs! It was already pushing it that Kolyada fell 3 times in the fp at Cup of Russia, and still won the bronze medal over Misha Ge.

Guys, I love Han Yan

Absolutely! Me too! I love Han Yan, and furthermore he's a much better all-around skater than Boyang. IOW Yan has better skating skills and aesthetic qualities than Boyang. But Yan lost prestige in Boyang's quad wake. This despite the fact Yan can also land quads and has much better skating skills. The difference is the quad-lutz-triple combo and 3 more quads than Yan.

Too much quad deification, over manipulation of the scoring and inability to understand the sport, and lack of ability to score PCS fairly.

 

[Eclair]

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong! Even in the short program, what was Boyang doing with PCS scores that close to Mikhail Kolyada??? :noshake: :disagree:

Yes, the venue is in China. But if that's part of the scoring then both Jason Brown and Adam Rippon should have placed 1 and 2 over Shoma Uno at Skate America last season, especially with the fact that Shoma camouflages his tech weaknesses (pre-rotations, flutzes, poor jump technique). And last season, Shoma did not have good ice coverage in one of his programs -- too much of it was performed at one end of the ice.

So, bottom line, if we are going to use politics and home venue as part of the scoring, then state it in the rules, and not be so sneaky and surreptitious. Boyang is simply put: Chinese fed's guy. He's the one they want on the podium and he's the one they are pushing. There sat Boyang in the kiss 'n cry sweating bullets because he knew how poorly he had skated the fp, and that he didn't deserve to be on the podium. For that fp performance, Boyang shoud have landed behind both Max Aaron and Han Yan. However, since Boyang had been so overscored on PCS in the sp and again overscored in the fp (even despite his PCS dropping slightly), he was able to squeak past Max and stay in first place. The arena erupted, and some of those shouts were boos and disbelief.

Kolyada is the real deal, but he needs to show it consistently on the ice. How can you go out there in first place and lay an egg because two previous competitors laid eggs? Kolyada too was over-rewarded in the fp , even despite his flashes of brilliance in the fp. None of these skaters need to be smirky and act like they deserve something from the judges. Kolyada and Boyang needed to be sent a message that skating good in one program and poorly in another isn't good enough to land on the podium above another skater who skated well in both programs!




Absolutely! Me too! I love Han Yan, and furthermore he's a much better all-around skater than Boyang. IOW Yan has better skating skills and aesthetic qualities than Boyang. But Yan lost prestige in Boyang's quad wake. This despite the fact Yan can also land quads and has much better skating skills. The difference is the quad-lutz-triple combo and 3 more quads than Yan.

Too much quad deification, over manipulation of the scoring and inability to understand the sport, and lack of ability to score PCS fairly.

lol how low do you want Boyang's PCS score to drop? His PCS today were 10 points lower than Kolyada's. Brilliant home inflation I call that.

 

[Art&Sport]

Well, the stomach problem the ISU also reported would mostly explain Javi's disastrous showing at least. But the entire men's event was depressing overall. Kolyada's SP was good, and I was thrilled to see Han do so well in the FS. But to have just a couple of good programs among all the mediocre to nightmarish ones...

Actually, I can't even recall a time when the men's field felt so lackluster 3 GPs into the season. hwell:

Come on! The ISU putting out that Javi had a stomach problem! If that's true, then he should have pulled out of the fp instead of skating poorly and then bending over like he was in some kind of agony as he sheepishly exited the ice after embarrassing himself. I have no sympathy whatsoever! The ISU is protecting Javi's embarrassment and coddling him in the exact same way they have over-protected Javi, Hanyu (and before them Patrick) after performances in which they cleaned up the ice with their behinds!

Did the ISU put out that Nathan had a boot problem after 2017 Worlds?! Nope. Nathan Chen sucked it up, did the best he could and took it on the chin! And then he learned from the experience and applied what he learned, even as he continued to lead the way in the quad-revolution that is rocking this discipline to its depths! This statement from the ISU on Javi's behalf tells me even more than their ridiculous overscores on PCS, that Javi as well as Hanyu are seen as ISU's bread and butter. And honchos in the sport aren't exactly happy about Nathan Chen upsetting the applecart. Why all of a sudden are they hurriedly scouting to find a way to change the rules next year on quads when it should have happened during the Patrick Chan era?

On paper, sure Javi should have won CoC with Kolyada in second and Boyang in third IF they had performed to their abilities in both programs. But they didn't! The only skater who performed well in both programs is Max Aaron, but the ISU is no way eager to get behind rewarding Max Aaron for his hard work and improvements, much less for his performing better than everyone else overall. The looking down on Max needs to stop!

 

[Art&Sport]

lol how low do you want Boyang's PCS score to drop? His PCS today were 10 points lower than Kolyada's. Brilliant home inflation I call that.

The fact is that I do not base my comments on who my favorite skaters are. I look at things objectively and frankly, based on over 45 years of following this sport. Boyang's PCS in the fp were way too high because Boyang is Chinese fed's guy, and he's a quadster who the ISU was willing to over-reward right from the beginning. I have nothing against Boyang's character. He's a nice guy with some wonderful abilities and capacity for growth. But he's not a well-rounded skater. Like few skaters, he's been given the moon before he fully paid his dues. He gets on the World podium in his first year in seniors because quads are seen as king. And then after complaints about his lack of aesthetics and skating skills, Boyang and his fed declare that they recognize he needs to become a better overall skater. So like the cart leading the horse, everyone chips in to help train Boyang to be a better skater after he already landed on the World podium, because Chinese fed puts up the bucks to fund their skating programs.

Meanwhile, Max Aaron is largely putting his own money toward training and improving as a skater. And Max has tried everything to excel. He hasn't always made the best choices, and he's been inconsistent technically while he's been so focused on trying to improve aesthetically. No matter his efforts to improve, Max continues to be looked down on and overly criticized. Max is apparently supposed to be happy for even making the podium, when at this woeful competition, a case could be made that Max should have at least won the silver medal overall. Max deserved better PCS scores, because his components truthfully aren't far off Boyang's actual abilities.

It doesn't matter that Boyang's PCS dropped in the fp -- his PCS scores should have never been that high in the sp. His SS score is still a joke in the fp. No way! In fact, Boyang should have landed at least behind Max Aaron overall. Boyang's overly high PCS scores in both programs are what propped him up.