2017 GP NHK Mens FS

[Mathman]

It just struck me that Jason now heads to US Nats, likely the stand-alone deciding event in determining the Olympic Team, without having ever completed a clean quad in competition.

Given this, why didn't he even attempt them here? Do you think the idea was to skate clean and make the GPF?

So now what? Does he try them at US Nats? Does he go without them and hope someone else has bad programs and he sneaks into the Top 3 by default?

Everyone, including myself, has been so complementary of his coaching team, but now I'm bucking that narrative. I can't believe they've led him to this point.

Well, I am the last person to have an intelligent guess about all this. I don't know what the team strategy was at NHK. Did Jason try any quads in the practices? Maybe he just wasn't feeling it for some reason. Maybe when Hanyu dropped out (along with Chan) they changed their intended strategy when they saw the glimmer of gold.

At Skate Canada Jason did several successful quads in practice and seemed raring to go when it came time for the performance, although his quad attempt was not successful. On the other hand, the quad attempt seemed to take something from the rest of the program, as he under-rotated the next jump (3A) and later popped an easier element.

I don't have the foggiest clue about what it is that team Jason plans for, or will be capable of, at Nationals. I think that Max Aaron will be his biggest competition for a spot on the Olympic team. Aaron will do one quad in the short program and three in the long, plus adequate non-jump elements and improved presentation. Vincent Zhou's base value will make him hard to beat even with a mediocre skate.

Dunno.

 

[Mrs. P]

Well, I am the last person to have an intelligent guess about all this. I don't know what the team strategy was at NHK. Did Jason try any quads in the practices? Maybe he just wasn't feeling it for some reason. Maybe when Hanyu dropped out (along with Chan) they changed their intended strategy when they saw the glimmer of gold.

At Skate Canada Jason did several successful quads in practice and seemed raring to go when it came time for the performance, although his quad attempt was not successful. On the other hand, the quad attempt seemed to take something from the rest of the program, as he under-rotated the next jump (3A) and later popped an easier element.

I don't have the foggiest clue about what it is that team Jason plans for, or will be capable of, at Nationals. I think that Max Aaron will be his biggest competition for a spot on the Olympic team. Aaron will do one quad in the short program and three in the long, plus adequate non-jump elements and improved presentation. Vincent Zhou's base value will make him hard to beat even with a mediocre skate.

Dunno.

Unfortunately since NHK practices were closed, we have no way of knowing whether he attempted quads. I don't agree that they weakened the program to go for gold. I think the 4T was MIA in the warm-up this morning and they went with the layout they thought he would most likely successfully execute, independent of what others were doing. That didn't work this time.

I will note there is one thing that may help Jason if the quad doesn't work or will provide him extra points with the high-quad/multi-quad brigage. It seems that his team is having him work on adding 1L-3S/-3T/-1L-3S combos to pretty much all his triples. In competition, he has successfully done 3Z-1L-3S'; 3F-1L-3S; 3A-3T; 3Z-3T; 3F-3T and he improvised the 3Lo-1L-3S today. There' are videos of landing the 3A-1L-3S and 3A-1L-3F and 3Z-1L-3F. This allows him a ton of flexibility down the road. These can be huge point getters, especially if he can pull them off in the second half. Yes, not as much as a quad, but they can still be a valuable asset. Yes, this seems a bit pointless to talk about since he had problems with his 3As as is today....but just something to watch.

I think Adam Rippon proved here that he is just as big as a competitor if not bigger than Max Aaron. That 4Z attempt was a credible one, even if UR and his PCS is better than Max's. Nationals will be a nailbitter.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Why should the lower one get hit with the zayak rule? Up until the last 3A, he had not zayak'd. He only broke the rule once the 3A was done, so that is the jump that is scratched. Also, skaters should be able to think on their feet. Skaters know the rules (especially the zayak rule). If he made the last axel a 2A, it would've been fine.

The lower one should get hit because that's always how it worked before CoP and it's what makes the most sense. Skaters should get credited for what they do on the ice, the WHOLE program needs to be looked at when applying the zayak rule. Nobody should have to turn a 3A into a 2A, that makes no sense and it's not "fine". If someone can do 3A, then they should be doing it. They shouldn't have to hold back on planned content because of something that happened earlier in the program; someone turning a Quad into a Triple shouldn't be further punished by also not being allowed to do a 3A. Everyone should be credited for the best jumps they achieve in a program, as long as they don't do more than 2 of them, that's the intent of the zayak rule. It never had anything to do with chronological order.

Why should it not apply for double jumps? Many skaters never learn triple jumps, and only have a program full of doubles. I think we need to remember that IJS rules apply to all skaters, not just international/elite ones.

There can be different rules for different levels of skating. We already do have have that, for example the Junior programs are shorter and have no "choreographic sequence" and Junior Men are not allowed Quads in the SP and Junior Ladies are not allowed 3Axel in the SP. If a zayak limitation for double jumps is needed at the Novice level and lower, then let it exist there. At the higher levels, especially if the Long Program rules were modified so that 3-jump combos are not required, then there's no need to have a zayak rule for non-Axel double jumps. The only thing that rule would accomplish is further punishing skaters who have turned planned Quads or Triples into lower rotation jumps, and the pushishment for those mistakes is already high enough. Popping a 4Toe into a 2Toe is a gigantic loss of points, why further punish the skater by also discrediting the measly 2T points, if they happened to do 2 more 2T's in the program?

Also, as I was talking about earlier, the zayaked double jumps should at least be credited as single jumps, since there is no limitation on single jumps. Nobody should should get 0 points for a doing a double jump in a case where they would have received at least a tiny amount of points for doing a single jump instead. We HAVE seen competitions where the score difference comes down to something as small as what a single rotation jump is worth. Nobody should be losing a competition because they did a 2Toe instead of a 1Toe.

 

[Mathman]

Ha, why Mathman? Can't handle me debating with you instead?

Tonto K knows better.

 

[TontoK]

Ha, why Mathman? Can't handle me debating with you instead?

Just kidding. I'm not surprised by this post -- it's not that controversial to me really. And I understand 100 percent how you got to that view -- well you made it easy since you wrote it above.

I have thoughts. I don't expect anyone to be persuaded by my thoughts, just simply putting it out there for the record.

1.) I think it cannot be underestimated how much of an impact not having Yuzu there wreak havoc on his nerves. I know this comes off as an excuse, and you're welcome to see it as that. But I think Jason respects skaters who are better than him and if anything he feeds off their energy and ambition. It's like a person who drifts behind the lead cyclist in a a Tour de France. With Yuzu gone, he was the guy to set the standard. I don't think he was comfortable being in that position. Yes, a different person might have THRIVED on this sudden spotlight. But Jason wasn't, at least this time.

2.) There's also this additional pressure I think he puts on himself to do well in Japan. He has a really strong fan base there and he loves the country and performing there. Sometimes you can want something too badly.

3.) As to whether Kori & Co. were responsible for his performance here, I don't agree. I think they did what they could to deal with these nerves. I think they took out the 4T because they were hoping that would ease his nerves or take out the edge a bit. One thing, for better or worse, is that if a jump isn't working in the warm-up practice, they will adjust accordingly. I have a feeling the 4T was MIA that morning. So Kori tried to adjust. It didn't work. As I said, I can get why people think that was the wrong decision -- perhaps if he did the 4T and fell, it might have shocked him and he would have hit everything else -- but hindsight's 20-20.

4.) As to what he'll do at Nationals....who knows at this point. But just a quick story. At JGPF, he waxeled his sole 3A attempt in the FS and finished off the podium. At U.S. Nationals 2013, he basically was 1/2 on Axel attempts in the FS, but adding a new 3Z-1L-3S combo. At junior worlds a month later, he was 2/2 on the 3A, and had the 3-3 combos in the second half. Here was his protocals from JGPF, where he finished OTP. Here is what he did at Nationals about a month later. And here's the protocals from Jr. Worlds two months after Nationals.
So it's not unprecedented that Jason lands things when he needs them. Things might not turn out that way this time, but I don't think it's crazy for him to land a quad at Nationals. If anything, this result might be exactly the thing he needs....

Anyway, I welcome your debate and disagreements, but thought you might appreciate my perspective.

Mrs P, you know I love discussing skating with you. I know that Jason is a particular favorite of yours, and I didn't want to drag you into a discussion that puts his team in a negative light. But, you're a big girl, I reckon.

So a couple of points back for you:

1. It's a coach's job to prepare the athlete for competition, and that includes various scenarios that might play out during competition. If his skating was so effected by Yuzu's withdrawal, then that goes squarely on the coach for not preparing him. Jason was there to compete, not to fanboy Yuzu. Another athlete's performance should not have any impact on a well-coached skater. Besides, it's not like Yuzu withdrew minutes before. We were talking about the possibility of such an event a day in advance.

2. Skating in Japan... see above. The coach's job is to prepare the skater. Were they somehow caught by surprise that NHK would take place in Japan? Did they just find out when they stepped off the airplane?

3. I agree the coaching team is not entirely responsible for his performance on any given day, but they ARE responsible for not giving him competition reps on jumps that he himself says he is doing daily. In two GP assignments, he attempted one quad. That's it.

4. Maybe you're right, he'll suddenly be a quad machine at USNats. But his team hasn't helped.

Much respect and brotherly love sent your way. Hope all is well with Little Tonto.

 

[yude]

I'm late but congratulations to all the medalists!! I really loved happy podium

 

[TontoK]

Tonto K knows better.

You're damn right I do!

 

[TontoK]

I think Adam Rippon proved here that he is just as big as a competitor if not bigger than Max Aaron. That 4Z attempt was a credible one, even if UR and his PCS is better than Max's. Nationals will be a nailbitter.

I'm a fan of Max's, not a fan of Adam's.

But I think you're right. Adam is a real threat to make the team, and I really didn't think so at the beginning of the season.

That was an excellent FS today, even with the UR quad. He still put it out there, and he stood it up.

 

[Mrs. P]

Mrs P, you know I love discussing skating with you. I know that Jason is a particular favorite of yours, and I didn't want to drag you into a discussion that puts his team in a negative light. But, you're a big girl, I reckon.

So a couple of points back for you:

1. It's a coach's job to prepare the athlete for competition, and that includes various scenarios that might play out during competition. If his skating was so effected by Yuzu's withdrawal, then that goes squarely on the coach for not preparing him. Jason was there to compete, not to fanboy Yuzu. Another athlete's performance should not have any impact on a well-coached skater. Besides, it's not like Yuzu withdrew minutes before. We were talking about the possibility of such an event a day in advance.

2. Skating in Japan... see above. The coach's job is to prepare the skater. Were they somehow caught by surprise that NHK would take place in Japan? Did they just find out when they stepped off the airplane?

3. I agree the coaching team is not entirely responsible for his performance on any given day, but they ARE responsible for not giving him competition reps on jumps that he himself says he is doing daily. In two GP assignments, he attempted one quad. That's it.

4. Maybe you're right, he'll suddenly be a quad machine at USNats. But his team hasn't helped.

Much respect and brotherly love sent your way. Hope all is well with Little Tonto.

I just learned a lot of tips about how to have tough discussions with people for a work assignment, so I'm prepared.

My general response is that all the awesome coaching in the world may still result in a terrible result. I'm sure that Kori did what she could to prepare him for this competition as they always did. I think this was all on Jason, honestly. I think Kori did probably what she always did and Jason still couldn't shake it off. Speaking from personal experience -- I've had bosses coach me, guide me, tell me all the right things I needed to hear, and I STILL SCREWED UP. That said, bosses/coaches also make bad decisions and I won't put it pass Kori that perhaps a different decision should have been made. Perhaps this was a learning experience for her too.

Regarding the quad -- Jason mentioned this himself---he's extremely up and down with the quad. Some days he lands them like there's no tomorrow (and there's documented evidence of this at Helsinki and Skate Canada) and other days he's not. If you're a coach, what do you do with that? I don't know. I get the whole "just put it out there and you'll eventually get there" argument, but that isn't the only strategy.

I do think Jason needs to get over whatever mental complex he has with the quad or breaking into the top skater ranks. That is a major roadblock at the moment. I think he'll figure it out. But I get why people are skeptical at this point.

 

[TontoK]

Regarding the quad -- Jason mentioned this himself---he's extremely up and down with the quad. Some days he lands them like there's no tomorrow (and there's documented evidence of this at Helsinki and Skate Canada) and other days he's not. If you're a coach, what do you do with that? I don't know. I get the whole "just put it out there and you'll eventually get there" argument, but that isn't the only strategy.

I do think Jason needs to get over whatever mental complex he has with the quad or breaking into the top skater ranks. That is a major roadblock at the moment. I think he'll figure it out. But I get why people are skeptical at this point.

In the interview he did with Canadian TV, he said he was doing 4T and 4S daily. DAILY.

Taking him at his word, he knows how to do the jump. The only way to learn to compete the jump is... compete the jump.

His team has failed to give him the confidence to go for it. Now, is it left too late? We'll see.

 

[Tonichelle]

I do think Jason needs to get over whatever mental complex he has with the quad or breaking into the top skater ranks. That is a major roadblock at the moment. I think he'll figure it out. But I get why people are skeptical at this point.

Honestly, until people stop fawning over him because of his "wide eyed enthusiasm" he's going to remain the fanboy and not the competitor. He's the "same kid" from 4 years ago. Sure a puppy is cute, but to run with the big dogs, he's gotta channel that energy and harness it to be competitive. I don't see a lot of change...

 

[blue_idealist]

I think Jason should attempt the quad, because if he rotates it, he'll get quite a few points even with a fall. The only thing is that a fall could screw up the rest of his program, but he has to not let it.

 

[karne]

Yes you can "magically" make it disappear, just like they made his 3A disappear. The point is that the lowest scoring element should always be the one to get hit with the zayak clause, in a fair world. His 3T should have been the deducted jump, not the 3A. I don't think the zayak rule should exist for double jumps either (except for 2Axel), but a zayaked double jump should be getting credited as a single jump.

You even reading what you're writing? He didn't make the Zayak mistake on the 3T. He made the Zayak error on the 3A. That's on him and nobody else. It's not the scoring system's fault he can't count.

You have to punish the jump that actually had the error, otherwise you're opening up a whole Pandora's box of ridiculous. What next, allowing a skater to transfer < calls between jumps so that their biggest jumps can be called clean and get the most points?

A Zayak jump should be 0. Flat, cold, end of story, it's always been that way and it always should be. Otherwise what's the point in the rule? Skaters should learn to count and improvise. They're athletes, they're supposed to know this stuff inside out. Most skaters can do it. Keegan couldn't last night for whatever reason. That's on him.

 

[twirlingblades]

Nobody should have to turn a 3A into a 2A.

That's your opinion. If he doesn't want to lose points on the 3A, he should've not popped his 4T. Planned content can be changed mid-program, whether that be on purpose (taking out or adding a quad) or not on purpose (falling, popping, not being able to finish a combo).

Skaters should get credited for what they do on the ice, the WHOLE program needs to be looked at when applying the zayak rule.

The whole program is looked at.

someone turning a Quad into a Triple shouldn't be further punished by also not being allowed to do a 3A.

He wasn't further punished for popping. He was punished for zayaking. If every time a skater popped they also lost another jumping pass, then they would be further punished for popping.

Everyone should be credited for the best jumps they achieve in a program.

If the best jumps don't violate a rule, sure.

It's unfortunate that a pop lead to a zayak but it could've been avoided. I'm just saying from my personal skater's perspective (I'm a skater): you should have backup plans as a skater. If your coach hasn't taught you/talked about backup plans, then that's a problem. My coach specifically worked with me on what to do if I popped a jump/fell on a planned combo/etc, and what jumps could be substituted in any given situation.

I also don't think that it should be different for lower levels because skaters then aren't learning about how to not zayak nor how to change a program mid-skate. Other rules that are different for levels are generally to keep the physical demands on par with the level (time restraint, quads, etc.)

Agree to disagree on this matter.

 

[twirlingblades]

You even reading what you're writing? He didn't make the Zayak mistake on the 3T. He made the Zayak error on the 3A. That's on him and nobody else. It's not the scoring system's fault he can't count.

You have to punish the jump that actually had the error, otherwise you're opening up a whole Pandora's box of ridiculous. What next, allowing a skater to transfer < calls between jumps so that their biggest jumps can be called clean and get the most points?

A Zayak jump should be 0. Flat, cold, end of story, it's always been that way and it always should be. Otherwise what's the point in the rule? Skaters should learn to count and improvise. They're athletes, they're supposed to know this stuff inside out. Most skaters can do it. Keegan couldn't last night for whatever reason. That's on him.

Agreed, I mentioned these points in the post I submitted after yours.

 

[karne]

Agreed, I mentioned these points in the post I submitted after yours.

Both are timestamped at 2:01 for me so it looks like we were thinking simultaneously

 

[NAOTMAA]

Honestly, until people stop fawning over him because of his "wide eyed enthusiasm" he's going to remain the fanboy and not the competitor. He's the "same kid" from 4 years ago. Sure a puppy is cute, but to run with the big dogs, he's gotta channel that energy and harness it to be competitive. I don't see a lot of change...

I've always believed Jason's artistry was overrated by fans. Yes he's graceful but being graceful doesn't automatically make you a great artist or even deserve the highest PCS marks. A few years back I said his presentation could be boiled down to the description "excited little puppy" and I still think it does

I think "wide eyed enthusiasm" is a perfect description. And while many men around the world have shown multiple layers, or improved, in all areas and US men have made artistic improvements (as well as technical) Jason has flat lined and as you said remained the same. But I think the USFSA still consider him the golden boy (along with Nathan of course) he was early on when US men were really in the dumps and are in his corner big time so he will be on the Olympic team barring a meltdown. They don't seem fond of Aaron (despite all his improvements) and Adam is considered back up.

 

[Sabrina]

You even reading what you're writing? He didn't make the Zayak mistake on the 3T. He made the Zayak error on the 3A. That's on him and nobody else. It's not the scoring system's fault he can't count.

You have to punish the jump that actually had the error, otherwise you're opening up a whole Pandora's box of ridiculous. What next, allowing a skater to transfer < calls between jumps so that their biggest jumps can be called clean and get the most points

A Zayak jump should be 0. Flat, cold, end of story, it's always been that way and it always should be. Otherwise what's the point in the rule? Skaters should learn to count and improvise. They're athletes, they're supposed to know this stuff inside out. Most skaters can do it. Keegan couldn't last night for whatever reason. That's on him.

Why was the second 3A declared invalid-0 points?

 

[twirlingblades]

Why was the second 3A declared invalid-0 points?

He zayak'd.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It's always been that way and it always should be. Otherwise what's the point in the rule?

Totally incorrect, it has NOT always been that way. The point of the zayak rule is to prevent skaters from getting credit for too many of the same type of jump. It has nothing to do with a chronological order of what the skater executed in their program, trying to discount a Triple Axel jump because the skater already did 2 Lutzes and 2 Toeloops earlier in the program. It's ONLY like this right now because that's how the computer program for CoP was coded, and it could easily be reconfigured. This is an issue the ISU has simply been too lazy/incompetent to address; look at how long it took them to fix the issue of entire jump elements being discounted when a skater would accidentally do an extra jump combo.

He didn't make the Zayak mistake on the 3T. He made the Zayak error on the 3A. That's on him and nobody else. It's not the scoring system's fault he can't count.

You have to punish the jump that actually had the error

There's no such thing as a zayak violation until the end of the program. Skaters shouldn't be counting like that during their performance, they should be performing and putting everything out there that they can. Again, that is ALWAYS how it was applied before CoP, when the judges manually scored the programs on their own by looking at the list of jumps a skater executed in their program. The lowest scoring extra jump is what would get removed.

Skaters were even allowed to attempt the same jump more than twice in their program if they messed up an earlier attempt -- for example, there are several times when Todd Eldredge fell on his second 3Axel of the program and then he would go and try a 3rd attempt at the end of the program, and he was ALWAYS given credit for that 3rd attempt of the 3Axel of the program if he landed it (and it was AWESOME when he did). The judges never discounted it because it came later and "triggered" the zayak rule, they simply discounted the Triple Axel he fell on earlier in the program and treated that jump as if it was a fall on a 2Axel. Look here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdNWg9mEqaQ&t=2m15s

The other facet of the zayak rule is needing to do a repeat jump in combination in order to receive full credit and Keegan fulfilled that criteria, he had an Axel and a Lutz in combination. Also note how there is NO chronological order required about doing the jump combination in order to fulfill the zayak criteria. You don't have to do the second jump attempt in combination, you can do it on the first jump. This makes complete sense and is how things should be. Imagine if people literally had to do the "repeat" jump in combination and how silly that would be, you would never be allowed to do a solo 4Toe or 3Axel or 3Lutz after already doing one in combination earlier, you'd have to put the second one in combo too. See how unnecessarily restrictive it would be to apply the rules like that?