2017 GP NHK Mens FS

[4everchan]

Why was the second 3A declared invalid-0 points?

Keegan's layout at skate canada started with the 4lz.

Here he did 3lz...
then 4t-2t
then 3a-2t
then he pooped the 4t into 3t..
then he went for a 3lz-3t... OUPS... doing that meant he could no longer repeat any other jumps
so when he went for his gorgeous 3a... it got nixed by the zayak rule.

Story short, his repeated jumps are supposed to be 4t and 3a.... here it became 3t and 3lz... making him lose a complete jumping pass.

He needs to have a clearer plan about his layout ... some of us are saying that the rule isn't great since it should penalize the mistake (here the popped 4t into a 3t) rather than nixing a "planned" jumping pass... it's not because we don't understand the rules it's because we wish they would be applied differently.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It's actually very, very important for this rule to get fixed because it can have HUGE impacts for no reason at all. Turning a Quad jump into a Triple is literally the worst mistake Men can make in skating right now, because of how stupidly the rule is coded in the computer.

For example, look at Javier Fernandez's jump layout:

4Toe
4Sal+3Toe
3Axel+2Toe
4Sal
3Axel
3Lutz
3Loop
3Flip+1Loop+3Sal

If Fernandez turns his opening 4Toe into a 3Toe, then he gets 0 credit for his 3Axel later in the program, if he goes through and nails the rest of his planned content. If he had popped that opening 4Toe into a 2Toe instead, then he would be given credit for his 3Axel later in the program. How does that make ANY sense!?!? IT DOESN'T. He's losing over 11 points for a well-executed Triple Axel late in the program, because of doing a 3Toe at the start of his program instead of a 2Toe! It's absolutely ridiculous and stupid! Nobody should EVER be getting penalized like this because they turned a Quad into a Triple, rather than turning it into a Double. Seriously, anyone who tries to argue otherwise is the definition of ignorant and bull-headed.

 

[twirlingblades]

There's no such thing as a zayak violation until the end of the program. Skaters shouldn't be counting like that during their performance, they should be performing and putting everything out there that they can.

Uh... what? The violation literally happens during the program. The moment he completed the last triple axel, there was a zayak violation.

Again, that's your opinion. You are taught as a skater how to improvise if something goes wrong (not just with this rule). If a skater messes up and doesn't know the rules, that's on them. Other skaters have shown in the past that they are completely capable of being able to literally think on their feet.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Again, that's your opinion.

No it is not my opinion. That is FACTUALLY how the rule worked for the entirety of the sport before CoP came along. The zayak rule was created in 1982. It existed in 6.0 skating far longer than it has existed under CoP, and the rule only operates as it currently does because of how it was coded into the computer program. If the person who coded CoP had been smarter and better informed, then we never would be having this conversation.

The current rule, like the application of many other CoP rules, is being wrongly used in the current scoring system because the ISU is simply too lazy and fragmented and uneducated. It has nothing to do with why the rule was created in the first place and how it was always applied for decades.

 

[TontoK]

I've always believed Jason's artistry was overrated by fans. Yes he's graceful but being graceful doesn't automatically make you a great artist or even deserve the highest PCS marks. A few years back I said his presentation could be boiled down to the description "excited little puppy" and I still think it does

I think "wide eyed enthusiasm" is a perfect description. And while many men around the world have shown multiple layers, or improved, in all areas and US men have made artistic improvements (as well as technical) Jason has flat lined and as you said remained the same. But I think the USFSA still consider him the golden boy (along with Nathan of course) he was early on when US men were really in the dumps and are in his corner big time so he will be on the Olympic team barring a meltdown. They don't seem fond of Aaron (despite all his improvements) and Adam is considered back up.

Three spots for TEAM USA and five credible contenders: Nathan, Vincent, Max, Adam, and Jason. Sure, there are others who could surprise us at Nats... Grant, Torgeshev, one of the other juniors... but I think these five would be on most everyone's short list of candidates.

Let's agree that Nathan probably has one of the spots. That leaves four fighting for two spots.

Jason got the nod for the World team over silver-medalist Vincent last year - and I acknowledge there were extenuating circumstances. But those circumstances don't exist this year. So, I don't look for that to happen again, given Vincent's tech and artistic improvement. Provided, of course, that Vincent skates to expectations.

Adam just beat Jason in this competition. He is a credible match for his PCS and has the technical edge, even if the 4Z is called UR.

Max is the wildcard. And I totally agree with you he's not the USFSA favorite. But, he has greater base potential than either Jason or Adam, and if anybody hasn't noticed, he's improved the quality of his basic skating a lot. He recently WON the FS in his GP, edging out Vincent.

I don't think it's at all clear Jason is the USFSA Golden Boy. Not at all. The others are showing real growth - point-earning growth. As much as I admire Jason's LP, if I were forced to wager at this moment, I'd bet against him making it. The field is too deep.

 

[twirlingblades]

Keegan's layout at skate canada started with the 4lz.

Here he did 3lz...
then 4t-2t
then 3a-2t
then he pooped the 4t into 3t..
then he went for a 3lz-3t... OUPS... doing that meant he could no longer repeat any other jumps
so when he went for his gorgeous 3a... it got nixed by the zayak rule.

Story short, his repeated jumps are supposed to be 4t and 3a.... here it became 3t and 3lz... making him lose a complete jumping pass.

He needs to have a clearer plan about his layout ... some of us are saying that the rule isn't great since it should penalize the mistake (here the popped 4t into a 3t) rather than nixing a "planned" jumping pass... it's not because we don't understand the rules it's because we wish they would be applied differently.

Was turning the 4Lz into a 3Lz decided beforehand? If not, not fixing the program before he skated was a huge coaching gaffe. If it was a pop or a choice he made during the program, then why was there not a plan in place? Very curious how this was not addressed as quads are easy jumps to pop (seen in his popping of the 4T).

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Uh... what? The violation literally happens during the program. The moment he completed the last triple axel, there was a zayak violation.

Again, that's your opinion. You are taught as a skater how to improvise if something goes wrong (not just with this rule). If a skater messes up and doesn't know the rules, that's on them. Other skaters have shown in the past that they are completely capable of being able to literally think on their feet.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense.

:agree: I can't tell you how many times I had to think on my skates during a competition when a combo ended up as a lone jump and I had to figure out where I was going to do the jump or where I was going to tack it on to another jump to still receive the points I needed.

 

[Tonichelle]

I've always believed Jason's artistry was overrated by fans. Yes he's graceful but being graceful doesn't automatically make you a great artist or even deserve the highest PCS marks. A few years back I said his presentation could be boiled down to the description "excited little puppy" and I still think it does

I think "wide eyed enthusiasm" is a perfect description. And while many men around the world have shown multiple layers, or improved, in all areas and US men have made artistic improvements (as well as technical) Jason has flat lined and as you said remained the same. But I think the USFSA still consider him the golden boy (along with Nathan of course) he was early on when US men were really in the dumps and are in his corner big time so he will be on the Olympic team barring a meltdown. They don't seem fond of Aaron (despite all his improvements) and Adam is considered back up.

I never got on the Jason bandwagon. It was all hype and when he "blew everyone away" with his Riverdance - by the time I saw the program I was disappointed, I didn't think it warranted the praise it got.

I'm not sure if he's the USFSA's favorite skater - but he is definitely the USOC Media darling, as well as the NBC favorite. Mainly because of his enthusiasm, nice guy persona. Much better than some of the catty men of Olympics past.

 

[4everchan]

Was turning the 4Lz into a 3Lz decided beforehand? If not, not fixing the program before he skated was a huge coaching gaffe. If it was a pop or a choice he made during the program, then why was there not a plan in place? Very curious how this was not addressed as quads are easy jumps to pop (seen in his popping of the 4T).

i don't know if he planned to do a 4lz here or not. I agree that plan b have to be in place.. but I'd prefer if skaters could focus on performing instead...

Kevin Reynolds is a master of the plan B... and if he has missed quads, he will simply tag loops and toes (triple) to make well paid combos... BUT I always feel that when a skater gets in their head, thinking about how to fix things, they lose connection with the program itself... this is why, I agree with some other users that Zayak should be applied, when all is done, and if a skater sinned, he should be punished... but where? on either the lowest value item, or on an apparent mistake... here in both cases, the apparent mistake and the lowest value item becomes the pop quad... if he had popped it into an ugly single or double, his 3a would have counted... he popped it, opening in the air as a triple... so not only his triple is not GOE+ worthy but then it kills a perfectly fine 3A... that's where the rule has it flaws right now.

They just changed the rules recently not to nix and entire jumping pass if there were a repeated 2t... Caro had 3 2t in her LP.... so what, she lost one 2t but not and entire jumping pass... before,under the old rules, she would have lost the entire combo... not anymore... ISU said they did not want to overpenalize... so go one step further and that way a skater is not taken away his potentially best element from making an early program mistake.


ETA : a couple years ago... Patrick Chan popped his 4t into a 3t in the SP... did 3a.. then did 3lz-3t... the whole combo was nixed...

Now, they would only nix the second 3t... under the recent new rule...

IMHO, they should nix the mistake : the first 3t... and leave the combo alone...

Why encourage a skater to go for 3lz-2t if they have opened up a quad into a triple? Why tell a skater : you screwed up, so make sure you don't try the harder combo now because it won't count anyways... so don't bother...

I am 100% fine penalizing a mistake.. what I am not fine with, is when a mistake becomes several mistakes... a popped jump already is costly... when it starts affecting other jumping passes, it becomes too much....

 

[twirlingblades]

The other facet of the zayak rule is needing to do a repeat jump in combination in order to receive full credit and Keegan fulfilled that criteria, he had an Axel and a Lutz in combination. Also note how there is NO chronological order required about doing the jump combination in order to fulfill the zayak criteria. You don't have to do the second jump attempt in combination, you can do it on the first jump. This makes complete sense and is how things should be. Imagine if people literally had to do the "repeat" jump in combination and how silly that would be, you would never be allowed to do a solo 4Toe or 3Axel or 3Lutz after already doing one in combination earlier, you'd have to put the second one in combo too. See how unnecessarily restrictive it would be to apply the rules like that?

If a combination is not achieved, then the second of the solo jumps gets the +REP, no matter the planned content. Just like how the how the jump that violates the zayak rule is penalized, regardless of the planned content. The penalties of the zayak rule are always given to the jump that violates the rule.

Also... who cares about the planned content??? Skaters don't have to stick to what the tell the judges beforehand, so who cares about the planned content at all. Skaters could literally go out there and change their entire program layout if they wanted to.


Also, on your other post, when I said "that's your opinion" I meant about your "skaters shouldn't be counting like that during their performance". That's an opinion.

 

[twirlingblades]

i don't know if he planned to do a 4lz here or not. I agree that plan b have to be in place.. but I'd prefer if skaters could focus on performing instead...

Kevin Reynolds is a master of the plan B... and if he has missed quads, he will simply tag loops and toes (triple) to make well paid combos... BUT I always feel that when a skater gets in their head, thinking about how to fix things, they lose connection with the program itself... this is why, I agree with some other users that Zayak should be applied, when all is done, and if a skater sinned, he should be punished... but where? on either the lowest value item, or on an apparent mistake... here in both cases, the apparent mistake and the lowest value item becomes the pop quad... if he had popped it into an ugly single or double, his 3a would have counted... he popped it, opening in the air as a triple... so not only his triple is not GOE+ worthy but then it kills a perfectly fine 3A... that's where the rule has it flaws right now.

They just changed the rules recently not to nix and entire jumping pass if there were a repeated 2t... Caro had 3 2t in her LP.... so what, she lost one 2t but not and entire jumping pass... before,under the old rules, she would have lost the entire combo... not anymore... ISU said they did not want to overpenalize... so go one step further and that way a skater is not taken away his potentially best element from making an early program mistake.

I agreed with the change to not take away the entire jumping pass, because only part of the pass violated the rule.

I think everyone is underestimating how smart skaters are. It really isn't that difficult to count when skating. You do it from the time you are little when testing (counting lobes in moves tests, counting in dance, etc.)

 

[twirlingblades]

:agree: I can't tell you how many times I had to think on my skates during a competition when a combo ended up as a lone jump and I had to figure out where I was going to do the jump or where I was going to tack it on to another jump to still receive the points I needed.

Yep. It's part of the sport.

 

[4everchan]

I agreed with the change to not take away the entire jumping pass, because only part of the pass violated the rule.

I think everyone is underestimating how smart skaters are. It really isn't that difficult to count when skating. You do it from the time you are little when testing (counting lobes in moves tests, counting in dance, etc.)

nobody is underestimating how smart skaters are. that's not the point. as I was editing my post, i added one very good reason to not penalize the way they do now...

why expect keegan to go for a 2a so he can count all his 8 jumping passes? the rule right now, is penalizing him twice... 1) on the pop as obviously it's not a good jump, 2) preventing him from doing a 3a.... a) he does it, it's nixed, b) he does 2 axel instead... yay... 3.3 points
it should penalize once... on the mistake. and let a skater try the hard element as planned.

same with the short program example i gave.. why expect a skater to now do a 2t instead of a 3t if they pop their quad toe... it's so silly...

it's not about being smart skater it's about letting a skater try the jumps they have trained for. ....

 

[4everchan]

Yep. It's part of the sport.

and it will change...i am sure it will.

 

[karne]

Top skaters train multiple layouts just for this reason. They have Plan B, Plan C, Plan D depending on which jump they pop.

Jason, for all his other uncharacteristic errors, showed a lot of this. I don't think I've ever seen him - or anyone else TBH! - do a 3Lo-1Lo-3S. But he knew he was short on combos and he chose to try that and then 3Lz-3T. Because he was able to think through what he needed to do, what jumps he could still repeat, and how many combos he has left.

Keegan screwed it up. He forgot to count and he and his team had clearly never worked on Plan B. If they had switched out the 4Lz for 3Lz deliberately in advance then it's a really stupid oversight not to check for Zayak probabilities.

But the rule did not come into play until the 3A. He made the Zayak error on the 3A. It is right that the 3A was deleted.

 

[twirlingblades]

nobody is underestimating how smart skaters are. that's not the point. as I was editing my post, i added one very good reason to not penalize the way they do now...

why expect keegan to go for a 2a so he can count all his 8 jumping passes? the rule right now, is penalizing him twice... 1) on the pop as obviously it's not a good jump, 2) preventing him from doing a 3a.... a) he does it, it's nixed, b) he does 2 axel instead... yay... 3.3 points
it should penalize once... on the mistake. and let a skater try the hard element as planned.

same with the short program example i gave.. why expect a skater to now do a 2t instead of a 3t if they pop their quad toe... it's so silly...

it's not about being smart skater it's about letting a skater try the jumps they have trained for. ....

If they want to try all the jumps they trained for then they should probably not pop or fall on them. Literally we are having this conversation because he popped his first jumps. Not doing that would be a great first step to doing all of his planned content.

 

[4everchan]

Top skaters train multiple layouts just for this reason. They have Plan B, Plan C, Plan D depending on which jump they pop.

Jason, for all his other uncharacteristic errors, showed a lot of this. I don't think I've ever seen him - or anyone else TBH! - do a 3Lo-1Lo-3S. But he knew he was short on combos and he chose to try that and then 3Lz-3T. Because he was able to think through what he needed to do, what jumps he could still repeat, and how many combos he has left.

Keegan screwed it up. He forgot to count and he and his team had clearly never worked on Plan B. If they had switched out the 4Lz for 3Lz deliberately in advance then it's a really stupid oversight not to check for Zayak probabilities.

But the rule did not come into play until the 3A. He made the Zayak error on the 3A. It is right that the 3A was deleted.

karne : i am not arguing that the rule was badly applied.... i am arguing that the rule is silly and should be changed... there have been quite a few changes to that rule already... why not making better so that a skater who makes a mistake has a chance to keep going with his program instead of having to water it down

 

[twirlingblades]

Top skaters train multiple layouts just for this reason. They have Plan B, Plan C, Plan D depending on which jump they pop.

Jason, for all his other uncharacteristic errors, showed a lot of this. I don't think I've ever seen him - or anyone else TBH! - do a 3Lo-1Lo-3S. But he knew he was short on combos and he chose to try that and then 3Lz-3T. Because he was able to think through what he needed to do, what jumps he could still repeat, and how many combos he has left.

Keegan screwed it up. He forgot to count and he and his team had clearly never worked on Plan B. If they had switched out the 4Lz for 3Lz deliberately in advance then it's a really stupid oversight not to check for Zayak probabilities.

But the rule did not come into play until the 3A. He made the Zayak error on the 3A. It is right that the 3A was deleted.

When I was skating junior, I would literally write out 4 or 5 different layout options in a notebook for each program. I was struggling with a 3Lo? Then I have a plan for if I can't get a combo off. Struggle with an axel? I had a plan for a program with one 2A and a plan with two 2As. That also gave me options day of if I was having a bad time with a jump.

My coach would say think like "okay, what would you do if you fell on both loops and had an extra 2T since you didn't get a combo off"? Or "what would happen if you popped one 3Lo and now were in danger of zayaking a 2Lo?" Etc.

 

[4everchan]

If they want to try all the jumps they trained for then they should probably not pop or fall on them. Literally we are having this conversation because he popped his first jumps. Not doing that would be a great first step to doing all of his planned content.

i think you should read my first post and the one i wrote to karne just now... not arguing that the rule is badly applied... sure keegan should have reacted.. that's not my issue...

i find the rule itself stupid and badly implemented... especially when the ISU has said itself that they don't want to overpenalize for such a mistake...

I offer other ways to look at how to apply a zayak rule in the future that would make sense and would be fair. I am not saying that keegan should have received more points here... just pointing out how obsolete and old fashioned a rule is... honestly, rules change all the times... and this one will do soon as well... so i am not sure why some people are so hardcore about it...

 

[twirlingblades]

i think you should read my first post and the one i wrote to karne just now... not arguing that the rule is badly applied... sure keegan should have reacted.. that's not my issue...

i find the rule itself stupid and badly implemented... especially when the ISU has said itself that they don't want to overpenalize for such a mistake...

I offer other ways to look at how to apply a zayak rule in the future that would make sense and would be fair. I am not saying that keegan should have received more points here... just pointing out how obsolete and old fashioned a rule is... honestly, rules change all the times... and this one will do soon as well... so i am not sure why some people are so hardcore about it...

Giving penalties to elements that weren't breaking rules and not penalizing incorrect elements opens a whole new can of worms. That has implications for spins as well. Spin penalties, like zayak penalties, are given to the first spin that breaks the rule. Alaine Chartrand had 2 spins invalidated earlier in the GP series because she failed to follow the basic spin rules. Should she have gotten the two lower scoring spins invalidated or the last two (as those were the ones that broke the rules)? The zayak rule is already one of the most clear cut rules in skating.