2017 GP NHK Mens FS

[Blades of Passion]

Javi's program is borderline zayak violation with 3 Salchow, so in those cases it's more skaters fault / risk.

He should go for the 4lo ditching one 4s, even though it's a more inconsistent jump.

You don't understand the issue:

Attempting 4Lo instead of 4Sal would put him MORE at risk of running afoul the zayak rule. Doing 2 4Sal and 1 3Sal is perfectly fine; if he turns one of the 4Sal into a 3Sal then the 3Sal simply becomes one of his repeated jumps.

If he plans a 4Lo and turns it into a 3Lo, then his planned 3Lo later in the program would become invalidated. For a safer plan with a 4Lo instead of a 4Sal, he would need to turn that 3Lo later in the program into a 3Flip, letting that jump become one of his repeated jumps since he already plans another 3Flip in combination.

Since when should the rules allow a bail-out for skaters who fail to deliver their planned content

This doesn't make sense, there is no "bail-out" happening. Whatever a skater achieves on the ice is what they achieve. That's what they deserve credit for.

If someone starts their program by turning a planned Quad into a Triple, a perfectly nice and flowing Triple jump, it would already be harsh to give that element 0 points. The current way the zayak rule is programmed in the computer goes beyond that even, it invalidates an even more important element later in the program. A skater might be losing around 20 points just for missing one rotation on a jump! That's completely ridiculous! One rotation of a jump should not be the difference of 20 points in a program, it goes against the entire point of the system.

 

[Celine]

Wonder if Hanyu's inability to earn a spot to compete at the Final (in Nagoya) will shift the media intensity onto Uno (and how he will handle it)?

 

[Mathman]

Wait but Kolyada has a 4T in the 2nd half.

The rule encourages skaters to bring variety on their programs instead of repeating the same jumps over and over.

I guess what I had in mind is something like this. You start out with your 4T+4T. Oh no, you don't make it all the way around on the second 4T. Did the tech panel give you a 4T+4T< or a 4T+3T? In either case, you lose a bunch of points on the element, as is only fair.

But now you don't dare attempt both your planned 3A+3T and your planned 3Lz+3T. If you do carry out your program as trained, the ghost of the missed 4T+4T hangs over the whole rest of the program like a shroud. Better not attempt a quad/quad combo at all.

Why wouldn't it be better for the rules just to silently adjust the last 3Lz+3T to the value of a 3Lz+2T? After all, the skater hasn't Zayaked until the third revolution of the 3T.

To me when a skater doesn't have a plan b, it's his fault, not ISU's fault.

It's not a question of fault. Rather, the question is, how should the rules be written to encourage and produce the best skating. Maybe the ISU can do even better that the current version.

 

[moriel]

You understand the issue:

Attempting 4Lo instead of 4Sal would put him MORE at risk of running afoul the zayak rule. Doing 2 4Sal and 1 3Sal is perfectly fine; if he turns one of the 4Sal into a 3Sal then the 3Sal simply becomes one of his repeated jumps.

If he plans a 4Lo and turns it into a 3Lo, then his planned 3Lo later in the program would become invalidated. For a safer plan with a 4Lo instead of a 4Sal, he would need to turn that 3Lo later in the program into a 3Flip, letting that jump become one of his repeated jumps since he already plans another 3Flip in combination.



This doesn't make sense, there is no "bail-out" happening. Whatever a skater achieves on the ice is what they achieve. That's what they deserve credit for.

If someone starts their program by turning a planned Quad into a Triple, a perfectly nice and flowing Triple jump, it would already be harsh to give that element 0 points. The current way the zayak rule is programmed in the computer goes beyond that even, it invalidates an even more important element later in the program. A skater might be losing around 20 points just for missing one rotation on a jump! That's completely ridiculous! One rotation of a jump should not be the difference of 20 points in a program, it goes against the entire point of the system.

Imo a good thing to change here would be to invalidate the element of less worth. Since it is done automatically, its quite easy to go through all the repeated jumps for example, and pick one that has the lowest BV to invalidate.
Or the element where the mistake happened.
Dunno, benefit of the skater sounds like a good principle.

Also, I like the idea of downgrading a jump instead of just giving a 0 points.

 

[TontoK]

The point of the Zayak rule, as I understand it, was too prevent skaters from performing the same jump over and over.

If the skater performs the same jump three times, it is an infraction. I doesn't matter that he didn't intend to do it, just like it doesn't matter if a baseball pitcher meant to balk.

Now, if the proposal is to modify the Zayak rule, then I suppose I could listen to the particulars, but I don't see anything wrong with the rule as written, and changing it will inevitably bring up other program criticisms.

 

[Ares]

Wait but Kolyada has a 4T in the 2nd half.

The rule encourages skaters to bring variety on their programs instead of repeating the same jumps over and over.

Javi's program is borderline zayak violation with 3 Salchow (same as Daleman's FS with 2 3T and 2 2T) so in those cases, it's more skaters fault / risk.

He should go for the 4lo ditching one 4s, even though it's a more inconsistent jump.

To me when a skater doesn't have a plan b, it's his fault, not ISU's fault.

Fernandez has 4Lo? :shocked:

 

[Kara]

Found some time to write up about the men as well.

Nam - Man, the only thing I can say is that his low PCS are deserved. He lacks basic skating skills and his posture is bad while his artistry is just not there. Supremely disappointed from someone who did so well in the junior ranks as those things have not that much to do with height.

Kazuki - He was so fun! He was a great future ahead of him if he can clean up his jump technique. Only really good looking jump was the 3A. His legs are LONG as hell proportion wise which makes for some pleasing aesthetics.:agree:

Keegan - Also another really fun performance and I'm so glad he got a second assignment. He does Chaplin very well and his spins were all really cool and fast.

Deniss - Oh what I would have given to be in that corner where he stopped in front of the boards. He was absolutely lovely and definitely a stand out even if the pops were a pity. The last spin was so great and you could tell it's his iconic move and everyone in the audience was just sort of stunned till they started yelling at it in amazement. I'm also happy he's getting the PCS he deserves. A clean program and he would get even more! My friend was fangirling over him already but stopped dead in her tracks when I told her he's 18.

Dmitri - Oh baby...He looked so tired out there and slower than what I was expecting, but he's injured..:sad21:His skating qualities still stood out, but it's definitely not even half of his best.

Brezina - His outfit looked like something a hipster would wear to work with a starbucks frap in hand. At least he lost the awful man-bun like thing, but the slicked back hair wasn't good either. Not much to say about the program because it wasn't that great..

Adam - I'm so happy for him! A silver coming back from his injury on his birthday no less. His costume was definitely the best out of all the guy's and was just simply gorgeous. His butt is also ginormous like please share even a quarter of that with me. Also my friend's absolute favorite though she was disappointed she's not part of his interest group. He has such a pleasing aura and you're sucked into his world immediately though I do acknowledge that he doesn't do as much with his feet as Jason though I prefer Adam's choreography. The landings on his jumps looked shaky but he held on. Definitely needed more in PCS though. I was shocked he got that much less than Jason, especially in interpretation of the music. Got a huge standing ovation, but a bit sad that he didn't even get any stuffed animals thrown onto the ice (maybe they just gave it to the staff) as it's clear the audience came in preferring Jason.

Sergei - I LOVE HIS MUSIC! Though to be honest, I thought Tarakanova had the better choreography and interpretation for it, but the music is popping. He came in and delivered. The opening combo was gigantic. He was also sooo charming in his interview. Reminded me of Munenori Kawasaki's interview where he's not the greatest at English, but his sort of laid back chill attitude bleeds through nonetheless. Very happy for him. Also got a huge standing ovation.

Alexei - I'm a bit in love with him for reasons I can't explain.: He caught my eye in the practice where he just seems like such a nice guy with his big sort of oversized jacket and he was so cute in the kiss and cry and medal ceremony. Program itself was pretty average choreography wise with not much being done feet or even arm wise. But I still really like him!!

Jason - Oh Jason...It was wiiide open for him to take it all, but it just didn't happen. He's definitely the absolute doll of the Japanese audience in terms of the men competing today, but he has to go clean. I was surprised he didn't even try the quad even in practice. His skating is wonderful and the spiral was a moment, but the the axel failed on him. Spins were lovely too. Those PCS were really high though. He skates fast and does amazing things with his feet though so I guess I can see it?

 

[Interspectator]

Fernandez has 4Lo? :shocked:

Fernandez has landed some very nice 4Los at shows etc, but doesn't have the intention of putting it into his program at the moment.

 

[Mrs. P]

Kara thank you for your observations! So you were there, yes?

Jason ... I was surprised he didn't even try the quad even in practice. His skating is wonderful and the spiral was a moment, but the the axel failed on him. Spins were lovely too. Those PCS were really high though. He skates fast and does amazing things with his feet though so I guess I can see it?

To clarify -- when you say practice, do you mean the 6-minute warm-up? Or the warm-up from earlier that day? Or were you actually able to attend practices I was under the impression that practices were closed -- but if you got some sort of VIP access, that's cool.

I appreciate hearing about Jason's speed. He was never super slow, but it's cool to hear that is improving. Anything in particular that was impressive regarding the "things with his feet?"

 

[JustMe]

Late to the party, but congrats to the medalists! (only fitting that they all medalled on Veterans' Day )
It was very dear to watch just how happy they all were with their performances and their medals (but bittersweet to think that this might just be the competitive highlight of their season, specially Adam's).
And wow, Jason's skating skills and transitions truly stand out against this field (and you don't have to be a fan of his, nor of his programs, nor of his style, to recognize this). For those complaining that his pcs were too high...maybe so, but they still deserve to be the highest of the competition and by more than 3.14 points, I think.

 

[Mathman]

Voronov can finish as low as 4th at Skate America (or maybe even fifth, since he has the first tie-breaker) and make the Grand Prix Finals, right?

 

[Mrs. P]

Voronov can finish as low as 4th at Skate America (or maybe even fifth, since he has the first tie-breaker) and make the Grand Prix Finals, right?

That's right! He could finish 5th because hew ould win the placement tiebreaker against Jason.