2017 GPF Free Dance
- Thread starter dorispulaski
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I think your technical breakdown is very useful, but putting reputation and bias aside is a very difficult endeavor in ice dance. Even your technical breakdown used the word prefer many times. I could argue for example that P/C second half elements while clever in that they hit the musical highlights do not match the mood of the music. There's a change in the music but only a change in tempo from them. I think it's both problematic from a choreographic and interpretative point of view.
I think the judges are making a call about the future and the direction of the sport both in the GOE and PCS. There's no problem with that but I don't think technical breakdowns capture it.
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2014
This was a great analysis Anya. :thumbsup:
I tried my best.
I didn't want to put "the judges prefer" because it could be different with another panel ? But yes you can ignore those of course.And then judges have their bias and their ideas too. They are human.
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2016
Nothing "juniorish" about it, just no acrobatics. One team is about athleticism and including strong "ta-da-moments" (they are excellent at it) and the other is about blending all elements into the dance and they also excel at it. If you want to reward acrobatic lifts, then the regulation needs to change. Acrobatics are not required to get your levels.
We can appreciate the difference in the teams and this year is perfect for that. It is time to stop demeaning teams who don't match your taste!
Thank you so much ! We missed you here live, ancientpeas !
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2014
Soooooo.. all this talk about which program is more sophisticated artistically: Be careful that you are evaluating what you seeing and not doing the old "I know I'm more sophisticated and have more taste than the average fan so the program I prefer is the more artistic one and the other is just for the great unwashed masses".
It is about personal preference and taste. I might be weird this way but I love both pieces of music (Tango de Roxanne and Moonlight Sonata). I'd say that Moonlight is on my list of favourite pieces of music ever. I also think I prefer P/C FD and V/M SD (Although to give them their due I think P/C has done very well with the Rumba). In the end it looks like if they both skate perfectly it will be close but P/C will win which makes me happy for P/C and sad for V/M. Too bad there could not be a tie.
I'm sad that H/D can't seem to pull off a great performance when it counts the most. Getting the bronze here would have set them up well for Nationals.
Shame for the shibs with the Twizzles. Maybe this is like Zhang (in pairs) falling? It only happens once in a blue moon?
I think the big prize for C/L was getting there. It keeps their name in the mix and the judges thinking of them as a top 6 team. That is the problem for B/S and W/P with missing the GPF because the perception becomes reality very quickly in ID.
C/B. Well, good for them for being third in the Free.
eace:
It is about personal preference and taste. I might be weird this way but I love both pieces of music (Tango de Roxanne and Moonlight Sonata). I'd say that Moonlight is on my list of favourite pieces of music ever. I also think I prefer P/C FD and V/M SD (Although to give them their due I think P/C has done very well with the Rumba). In the end it looks like if they both skate perfectly it will be close but P/C will win which makes me happy for P/C and sad for V/M. Too bad there could not be a tie.
I'm sad that H/D can't seem to pull off a great performance when it counts the most. Getting the bronze here would have set them up well for Nationals.
Shame for the shibs with the Twizzles. Maybe this is like Zhang (in pairs) falling? It only happens once in a blue moon?
I think the big prize for C/L was getting there. It keeps their name in the mix and the judges thinking of them as a top 6 team. That is the problem for B/S and W/P with missing the GPF because the perception becomes reality very quickly in ID.
C/B. Well, good for them for being third in the Free.
eace:
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2014
Aw.. thanks. I just couldn't do it on the first or second day and last night I was too tired to be up in the middle of the night. I'll probably watch CBC this afternoon or maybe not.
I'm actually more excited for U.S/Russia nationals and Europeans than I am about the GPF. I don't know because I was excited for the GP season but then it got to this phase and I just couldn't muster up a lot of enthusiasm. Glad to see that for the most part this thread has stayed sane. Keep on keeping on I say.
"It is time to stop demeaning teams who don't match your taste!".................... you mean literally what everyone is doing with VM and their Moulin Rouge program?
I'm not saying they don't blend well with their program or that they don't meet the requirements for a lvl 4 and good GOE. I'm saying that I personally cannot get into their program while I see the supposed top team doing a less complex and difficult (IMO!) program than some of their OTHER competitors. Look, I am all for the artistic side of ice dance but at the end of the day it is still a SPORT. You see in all the other disciplines, the skaters are trying to do the more difficult elements like the quads in the mens. They get rewarded for doing more difficult elements but not in ID (which I think will change after this season but w/e) and I think that's a shame. It's my opinion, not everyone thinks pc are amazing just as not everyone thinks vm are amazing, but i'm allowed to voice my opinion without YOU demeaning ME for my taste.
[edit] would also love to ask where exactly I said that pc have to do acrobatic lifts or even talked about acrobatic lifts at all? I didn't. Just think they could make their lifts more difficult while still having them blend in with their program. Making things more difficult doesn't necessarily mean making them acrobatic which is what it seems y'all are thinking i said.
I tried my best.
And then judges have their bias and their ideas too. They are human.
I think it's really important that the competition is not in the "wuz robbed" category. I want to be clear that I don't think ice dance is. I think it's in the "very close" category where an argument could be made in either direction. I will be perfectly happy if P/C win gold.
If you are talking about P/C, I think what you described as juniorish may appear refreshingly mature and elegant to the judges, especially that SL lift, which is designed to blend with the overall mood and spirit of the program, with almost a classical Greek statue's beauty. Tasteful lines and body positions. As long as it fits the Level 4 criteria, I'm all for a non-acrobatic lift that fits the music. (I've always liked H/D's lifts, which can sometimes be constrained athletically due to height of Madison, but no less effective.)
The entrance is well designed. That balance angle is quite original. The supple softness that P is able to maintain in her upper body while standing on his legs is quite difficult and frankly unusual if you think about it, with most other ladies going for full arched extension, which may be easier to maintain throughout your body.
Some of the legs-around-the neck lifts or lifts where the female partner is upside down make them look like "props" to be manipulated. That's more a trick aesthetic than dance aesthetic I feel.
They were very fast. They got one level less than in France.
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2012
Ha ha, too true! He's like a swan! Perfect for figure skating!
Also this German guy keeps saying what sounds like "ABBA" no-ones skating to that!
You probably heard the word "aber" which means "but".
Their spin here was not as good as in France. Other than that, they were half a beat earlier, anticipating the music, compared to in France where they were half a beat late. I generally prefer the former in dance.
I'll try to differenciate the Technical from both P/C and V/M. I just want to apologize in advance to people who are sick of these 2 team-rivalryBut since people seem to not understand scores, it could be necessary.
I'm putting reputation and bias aside, otherwise it's just pointless. I will talk about TODAY's FD ONLY.
Twizzles
V/M : 8.40 (perfect score)
P/C : 8.31. A matter of a single +2 vs +3 GOE.
P/C have a great entry and exit and it's timed to the music the whole time. V/M changed their entry to make it more "unexpected", the "Roxanne" scream at the end is glorious. Nitpick : Guillaume could have been a tiiiiny bit steadier on the first set maybe. Difference justified.
Lifts ALL the lifts meet the criteria for level4, so execution only.
P/C maxed out on all their lifts.
1st : Extremely fast, Guillaume has a very low spread-eagle, the arms movement are beautiful.
2nd : Rotationa lift is a catcher because of the change of the music and rotates fast + head movement. Gets the crowd.
3rd : straight line who is particulary difficult if you watch entrance+exit+positions but they make it look easy.
P/C advantage on lifts : they blend into the choreo like steps + use of the body movements.
V/M maxed out on one only (the 3rd), but same as P/C on twizzles : only a +2 GOE from one judge only made the difference on the 1st and 2nd lift.
1st : sets the tone, outstanding elevation from Tessa, so sharp.
2nd : iconic from them, the backflip entrance is just wozaaaa. It's not everyone's taste, but it just works. Just the transition between 1st and 2nd position can be trickier but they do it very well.
3rd : the most impressive by far (no discussion on the max score). Tessa's extension of her whole body, Scott low spread eagle and the exit. This could be considered as their "simpler" lift, NO. It's the one they make it look the easiest.
Circular step sequence
V/M :
I think Tessa wasn't the cleanest here, but it's hidden by the camerawork : https://youtu.be/e85uU7L0AUo?t=111
That's enough to lose a level for a Tech Panel.
There are some great moments in it. But I think the process of these steps isn't the best still. It feels a tiny bit busy, which is fine, but not yet organised. It's big, great edges, but some moments could be better. It's a construction type of thing. Also, the overall execution could be better from them, the bobble cost them either a level, or a +3 from some judges.
GOE : 2.51
P/C :
They use their biggest advantage on the Cist : long lines, and their big edges. There isn't really a break in speed. It's big and the use of their body movements makes it bigger.
It was flawless today, I couldn't see ay mistakes, or shaky things.
GOE 2.99
Difference in execution again.
Dance spin
P/C : He pulls her for the entrance. It turns very fast with the music. The highlight is Guillaume's exit. They both have great extensions and positions in this element. GOE +1.71
V/M : a more classic entrance. Great extension on the 1st position. GOE +1.54
Difference in GOEs could be the timing with music and speed. I also prefer P/C's in an aesthetically/clean point of view, could be the same with judges.
Midline/Diagonal Step Sequence
P/C : Very very fast, and the choreo makes them purposely hit the music just when it has to. Highlights are Guillaume spread-eagle and "jump" and Gaby falling into his arms (hits the note, spot on). The speed doesn't take away the big edges too. It has a "floaty feeling" to it. GOE : +3.14
V/M : First, has Tessa bobbled here, or is it the camera work again ? https://youtu.be/e85uU7L0AUo?t=215
The beginning just before the "I love you" works well, it's fast and look efortless, yet they have gone all the way to the other side of the rink. And then it slows down. Not necessarily about speed, but also when you talk about steps and movements. They could go "wilder" on the "Come What Maaaay", but it does fade a bit. Again, construction (for me).
GOE : +2.99
Same comments than with The Cist.
Choreo spin
V/M : crazy kick/leg extension in the air from Tessa. GOE +1.80
P/C : it blends, you don't notice it's an element, the music changes right at this moment. GOE +1.90
Difference here could be subjective. For me (not objectively) : I prefer the impact of the music with P/C and the way it blends in. But really both are excellent.
Choreo lift
P/C : one of the best part of the FD it has a ton of impact choereographically speaking. GOE +2.10
V/M : the way he pulls her up at the end just blends into the choreo. I love it. GOE +1.90
I think judges prefer the impact of P/C's because it's bigger/longer/hits more position. But I could be wrong. My 2 cents.
Things I noticed :
-Scott almost tripped at the beginning : https://youtu.be/AgpwYi4OPzg?t=55 The commentator almost screamed
-Again, with the same Base Value, the cleanest FD won tonight. But bth team skated very well.
-There are some new touches to each FD that I really like.
-I'm putting a big NO, on Scott's interpretation today though. It really was too much, he doesn't need that.
-I truly think V/M Steq sequences have a construction issue. It goes along with the music but it's not as impactful as it could be.
-Since P/C make their skating look so efortless, they're getting the higher GOEs.
-There is an 11-point gap between 2 and 3. But only a 2,30 point between 1 and 2. V/M lost on execution this time. Yet it's VERY close and nothing is played.
-Ice Dance is the best discipline.
Thank you for that review. Would you do the same for Junior's FD? C/P and S/A - I am a little confused. I felt that US team skating skills were better especially if you compare just boys.
I watched both programs and actually S/A had great lines and sophistication which was surprising for Juniors. For both teams it wasn't the greatest of showings though. Also you can never compare just one half of the team. I'll do it if I have time
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2016
Two wrongs don't make a right and honestly, the more acerbic and over the top comments don't come from P/C fans (there are about 3 nut-cases among P/C fans and they are vocal, I'll give you that. But when you read the rhetoric, you understand what they are). I don't want to go into this rehash but demeaning comments like "first year skaters" , no intricacy in their steps, just look at their feet (! my favorite
), one trick-ponies and all around talks of being technically sub-par compared to V/M are plenty. I think everyone can see that we have 2 exceptional teams here. Let's just enjoy their uniqueness, is all I am saying.
