3Lz-3t/2A versus 2A-3t/3Lz?

[crazydreamer]

Don't skaters get the same number of base points for doing (for example) 3Lz-3t and 2A as they would for doing 2A-3t and 3Lz? If so, why do almost all of the senior ladies choose to do 3Lz-3t (or 3Fl-3t) combinations instead of the nominally easier 2A-3t (or 3s-3t, etc.)? Is it because 3Lz-3t is actually easier than other high-value combinations? Or do you get some sort of bonus in GOE for doing a jump perceived to be more difficult?

To me, it would seem strategically advantageous to do two really good single 3Lz with high GOEs and an easier triple triple combination (or 2A-3t) with high GOE. But am I missing something?

 

[andromache]

This is a major problem with how combos are currently scored.

Anyway, you can't do a 2a-3T in the SP, so it's worth having a 3Lz/3F-3T for the SP. Also, having a 3-3 or two is important to perception.

ETA: I think Satoko used to do two 2A-3T combos in her LP.

 

[Shayuki]

If you want to repeat a jump you need to do it in a combo. But indeed, I don't think that the combo choices by most skaters are optimal, especially in the cases they don't intend on repeating both the flip as well as the lutz.

IIRC Miyahara had a pretty good layout with the 2A combos. Others should take notes.


For the FS, most skaters don't even need a 3-3 because they can do something like:

3Lz-2T-2Lo and 2A-3T and 2A-3T.

 

[QuadThrow]

It is a different statement if someone goes for a 2A+3T.

The message is: My Lutz is not sure and high enough to go for a consistent 3Lz+3T.

 

[Shayuki]

It is a different statement if someone goes for a 2A+3T.

The message is: My Lutz is not sure and high enough to go for a consistent 3Lz+3T.

But that's all it is. There's no actual harm in doing so.

A discussion we can have here is this:

Should it be illegal to perform a triple jump after a double jump in a combo? If it was illegal or at least got a slight penalty(10% BV?), there would be more separation.

 

[andromache]

But that's all it is. There's no actual harm in doing so.

A discussion we can have here is this:

Should it be illegal to perform a triple jump after a double jump in a combo? If it was illegal or at least got a slight penalty(10% BV?), there would be more separation.

No, there shouldn't be a penalty. There's enough rules as it is.

Math-wise it works out the same in TES, but a skater without a 3-3 is going to get hit in PCS, because a 3-3 is the quad jump of ladies skating.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Anyway, you can't do a 2a-3T in the SP, so it's worth having a 3Lz/3F-3T for the SP. Also, having a 3-3 or two is important to perception.

I think this is why skaters push themselves to add the difficulty. The hope is that the difficulty will be credited elsewhere (i.e. in PCS), otherwise there would be no point in attempting more difficulty. In fact, if both were awarded the same GOE scores across the board, the 2A-3T + solo 3Lz would actually outscore the 3Lz-3T + solo 2A because, in the former, both passes are eligible for higher GOE because they contain triples. The ISU still hasn't figured out a good way to address this anomaly, and I'm not sure whether it unofficially encourages the judges to factor in jump difficulty into PCS.

 

[Globetrotter]

But that's all it is. There's no actual harm in doing so.

A discussion we can have here is this:

Should it be illegal to perform a triple jump after a double jump in a combo? If it was illegal or at least got a slight penalty(10% BV?), there would be more separation.

Scoring wise, it is perfectly fine going for the 2A-3T and solo triple instead of 3-3T and solo 2A if the former layout scores more GOE. Unless the rules get changed to reward harder combos more realistically, it is smart to go for the 2-3 combo. I am not for the idea of penalty and will personally prefer that combos get rewarded in its various permutations with different BVs. Say a 3R-3T = 3T-3R under current BV but the latter is actually far more difficult and really deserves more.

 

[Hevari]

Scoring wise, it is perfectly fine going for the 2A-3T and solo triple instead of 3-3T and solo 2A if the former layout scores more GOE. Unless the rules get changed to reward harder combos more realistically, it is smart to go for the 2-3 combo. I am not for the idea of penalty and will personally prefer that combos get rewarded in its various permutations with different BVs. Say a 3R-3T = 3T-3R under current BV but the latter is actually far more difficult and really deserves more.

First - basicaly 2A is not double, but double and a half. So let's call it 2.5A

Then - axel jumps are hardest to master (for example remember Pogorilaya who popped half of her axels even in her first senior international season 2015-2014) and the only ones that are jumped face-forward...

Keep this in mind when talking about rewards for difficulty and so on. And for me it seems for that it's kinda incorrect to state that 2.5A-3 combo is "easier" than 3-3.... axels are special....

 

[andromache]

First - basicaly 2A is not double, but double and a half. So let's call it 2.5A

Then - axel jumps are hardest to master (for example remember Pogorilaya who popped half of her axels even in her first senior international season 2015-2014) and the only ones that are jumped face-forward...

Keep this in mind when talking about rewards for difficulty and so on. And for me it seems for that it's kinda incorrect to state that 2.5A-3 combo is "easier" than 3-3.... axels are special....

We aren't going to call it a 2.5A. The fact that it is an axel implies the .5 rotation. It has always been referred to as a 1A, 2A, or 3A. That's not changing now.

Axel jumps are the hardest of the jumps. That doesn't necessarily mean that a 2A is harder than a 3T or 3S or certainly a 3Lz or 3F. Some skaters have worse axel technique than others. That doesn't mean the base value of the jump should be higher.

It seems pretty obvious that most skaters find the 2A-3T to be easier than their 3-3s. 2A-3T is a very common second combo for skaters with a 3-3. 2A-3T is usually their second combo because they want to save their fresh legs for their 3F-3T or 3Lz-3T. Many even save their 2A-3T for the second half of the program, because they know they can do it on tired legs. If the 2A-3T was harder, they would get it out of the way first, or even do TWO 3-3s to avoid the 2A-3T. This isn't really the case for anyone but Evgenia.

Maybe the 2A-3T is easier than 3T-3T - probably depends on each individual skater.

 

[Hevari]

We aren't going to call it a 2.5A. The fact that it is an axel implies the .5 rotation. It has always been referred to as a 1A, 2A, or 3A. That's not changing now.

Axel jumps are the hardest of the jumps. That doesn't necessarily mean that a 2A is harder than a 3T or 3S or certainly a 3Lz or 3F. Some skaters have worse axel technique than others. That doesn't mean the base value of the jump should be higher.

It seems pretty obvious that most skaters find the 2A-3T to be easier than their 3-3s. 2A-3T is a very common second combo for skaters with a 3-3. 2A-3T is usually their second combo because they want to save their fresh legs for their 3F-3T or 3Lz-3T. Many even save their 2A-3T for the second half of the program, because they know they can do it on tired legs. If the 2A-3T was harder, they would get it out of the way first, or even do TWO 3-3s to avoid the 2A-3T. This isn't really the case for anyone but Evgenia.

Maybe the 2A-3T is easier than 3T-3T - probably depends on each individual skater.

That's it! What's really easier or harder - it's personal.

But if we talk about reward... what do you (and others) think about japanese Yura Matsuda and her 2A-3T-3Lo combo? For me it seems that it's nearly most difficult combination to master.

 

[andromache]

That's it! What's really easier or harder - it's personal.

But if we talk about reward... what do you (and others) thing about japanese Yura Matsuda and her 2A-3T-3Lo combo? For me it seems that it's nearly most difficult combination to master.

Anything with a 3Lo on the end is incredibly difficult and under-rewarded.

 

[Hevari]

Anything with a 3Lo on the end is incredibly difficult and under-rewarded.

And some rare and nearly unique things lkie 3-3-2 combos for me are also under-rewarded...

It seems that back in 6.0 times if the skater had and performed clerar an unique or rare difficult element - it could give him/her a significant advantage if not being decisive...

By the way... 2A-3 combo maybe the only one way to make availible performing the 3-2-2 or 3-3-2 three-jump combo... Or there can be a legal layout without quads and 3A's but with two 3-3's and 3-2-2/3-3-2?

 

[Shayuki]

But if we talk about reward... what do you (and others) think about japanese Yura Matsuda and her 2A-3T-3Lo combo? For me it seems that it's nearly most difficult combination to master.

I guess it is. Although, the first jump could still be just slightly more difficult, like this.

 

[Hevari]

I guess it is. Although, the first jump could still be just slightly more difficult, like this.

Sorry, but Yura performs 2A-3-3 in competitions so your example is incorrect in relation to the discussion.

Here we don't talk about show offs and ostentations during training sessions, but about performing in competitions.

 

[andromache]

By the way... 2A-3 combo maybe the only one way to make availible performing the 3-2-2 or 3-3-2 three-jump combo... Or there can be a legal layout without quads and 3A's but with two 3-3's and 3-2-2/3-3-2?

3-2-2s are fairly common.

3-3-2s are not, because there's no reward for the risk. I'll also say that 3-3-2s do NOT impress me unless the double jump is a 2Lo. 2Ts are pretty easily tacked on to most jumping passes, is the impression I get from most top ladies, and -2Ts don't do anything aesthetically for me either, unless it's being done on top with the music.

3-3s are, in general, riskier and more prone to error than 2A-3Ts. They are also riskier and more prone to error than 3-2-2s. You also stand to lose more points should either jump be botched.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

It seems like back in 2006, none of the ladies figured out that they could do a 2A/3T to get seven triples and a 2A in the LP. In the SP, nobody ended up doing a 3/3 though I think Slutskaya and Arakawa were capable and teasing people with it, so a 2A/3T would have been worthwhile to train. I think the 6.0 mindset of showing off a "real" 3/3 was still a philosophy being followed.

 

[Hevari]

3-2-2s are fairly common.

3-3-2s are not, because there's no reward for the risk. I'll also say that 3-3-2s do NOT impress me unless the double jump is a 2Lo. 2Ts are pretty easily tacked on to most jumping passes, is the impression I get from most top ladies, and -2Ts don't do anything aesthetically for me either, unless it's being done on top with the music.

3-3s are, in general, riskier and more prone to error than 2A-3Ts. They are also riskier and more prone to error than 3-2-2s. You also stand to lose more points should either jump be botched.

OK but what do you thing is harder/riskier etc.: popular and trendy 3-1Lo-3 or rare 3-3-2(Lo/T)?

(by the way - for me 3-1Lo-3 is not a "three-jump" combo, but rather a harder variation of two-jump "+SEQ" sequence)

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I think if given the choice between whether to consider a 3/1/3 a three jump combo and a two jump + SEQ, I prefer that it is considered a three jump combo. I think a two jump + SEQ is really for combos where there are linked steps (usually more than one) that really make it easier than a 3/3 while a 3/1/3 is only done because there's no other way to make a Salchow and a Flip the second half of a 3/3 combo. Although, one can argue that a two jump + SEQ should not get lower marks than the BV of the two jumps because having those steps can be considered a transition. I get why they did that because if both the 3/3 and the two jump + SEQ earned base values, then some skaters would opt for the latter to get seven triples in. Maybe to encourage 3/3s, they should be given some sort of bonus on top of the BV to really reward the difficulty.

 

[Hevari]

I think if given the choice between whether to consider a 3/1/3 a three jump combo and a two jump + SEQ, I prefer that it is considered a three jump combo. I think a two jump + SEQ is really for combos where there are linked steps (usually more than one) that really make it easier than a 3/3 while a 3/1/3 is only done because there's no other way to make a Salchow and a Flip the second half of a 3/3 combo. Although, one can argue that a two jump + SEQ should not get lower marks than the BV of the two jumps because having those steps can be considered a transition. I get why they did that because if both the 3/3 and the two jump + SEQ earned base values, then some skaters would opt for the latter to get seven triples in. Maybe to encourage 3/3s, they should be given some sort of bonus on top of the BV to really reward the difficulty.

So 3-1-3 is just kinda "substitution" for 3-3S/F+SEQ but still concidered as a three-jump combo? Something illogical...

But why large number of skaters choose 3-1-3 instead of 3-3-2Lo (that seems to earn more BV)?