3Lz-3t/2A versus 2A-3t/3Lz?

[VIETgrlTerifa]

So 3-1-3 is just kinda "substitution" for 3-3S/F+SEQ but still concidered as a three-jump combo? Something illogical...

But why large number of skaters choose 3-1-3 instead of 3-3-2Lo (that seems to earn more BV)?

I don't find that illogical. I think there's a clear difference between a 3/1/3 and a two jump + Seq. To see true sequences, one may have to look at older skating videos where skaters used to do lots of steps between jumps. Even if there aren't a lot of steps, I think there's a difference. Look at Tara Lipinski's 3toe/1loop/3 Salchow and Kwan's 3Loop/falling leaf step/2Toe. There's a real difference to me as one is clearly a jump and the other is clearly a step. Callers definitely evaluate the 1loop as a jump and some like Shin Amano don't hesitate to give a > or even >> call for UR ones. I'm not arguing that 3/1/3 can't be easier than some 3/3s, especially the way some skaters seem to really hesitate after the 1loop and launch their Salchow, but I still think it's a 3 jump combo.

As for why don't more skaters go for a 3/3/2, I think it's because it's harder. I wonder if a 3/2/3 is harder than a 3/3/2. I guess it depends on the skater and what kinds of combinations we're talking about.

 

[andromache]

OK but what do you thing is harder/riskier etc.: popular and trendy 3-1Lo-3 or rare 3-3-2(Lo/T)?

(by the way - for me 3-1Lo-3 is not a "three-jump" combo, but rather a harder variation of two-jump "+SEQ" sequence)

3-3-2 is harder/riskier, but it does not mathematically make sense to do unless you've got a 3A or quad. I'll also say that I don't think 3-3-2 is significantly harder/riskier than a regular 3-3. The 3-3 is the hardest part of the 3-3-2, and the -2 is really an afterthought.

3-1Lo-3 is a three-jump combo; the ISU says so. Anyway, it is preferred by many skaters who want to repeat jumps other than the -3T or -3Lo, which are the only type of jumps that can be performed at the end of a 3-3. With the option of a 3-1Lo-3 instead of a 3-2-2 or mathematically unnecessary 3-3-2, skaters can diversify based on their skillset.

Doing a 3-3-2 is perfectly feasible, but it's going to make one of your other jumping passes pretty lame (like a 2A-2T). And if you can do a 3-3 and 3-3-2, you might as well do a 3-3 and a 3-3, and then do a 2A-2-2 combo (which is still pretty lame).

But doing a 3-1-3 lets you repeat different jumps, which is what some skaters like to do (it lets Ashley, for example, repeat her 3F and 3Lo - but the cost of this is having a lame 2A-2T combo, too).

 

[FSLover17]

3-3-2 is harder/riskier, but it does not mathematically make sense to do unless you've got a 3A or quad. I'll also say that I don't think 3-3-2 is significantly harder/riskier than a regular 3-3. The 3-3 is the hardest part of the 3-3-2, and the -2 is really an afterthought.

Doing a 3-3-2 is perfectly feasible, but it's going to make one of your other jumping passes pretty lame (like a 2A-2T). And if you can do a 3-3 and 3-3-2, you might as well do a 3-3 and a 3-3, and then do a 2A-2-2 combo (which is still pretty lame).

But doing a 3-1-3 lets you repeat different jumps, which is what some skaters like to do (it lets Ashley, for example, repeat her 3F and 3Lo - but the cost of this is having a lame 2A-2T combo, too).).

I agree. Most skaters with good technique on their 3-3 will have enough speed and flow out of it to put a 2T on the end. In fact some even practice with it on the end to ensure they have the speed.
"But doing a 3-1-3 lets you repeat different jumps, which is what some skaters like to do (it lets Ashley, for example, repeat her 3F and 3Lo - but the cost of this is having a lame 2A-2T combo, too)."
How come she can only have a 2A-2T if she has the 3 jump combination?

 

[TryMeLater]

I agree. Most skaters with good technique on their 3-3 will have enough speed and flow out of it to put a 2T on the end. In fact some even practice with it on the end to ensure they have the speed.
"But doing a 3-1-3 lets you repeat different jumps, which is what some skaters like to do (it lets Ashley, for example, repeat her 3F and 3Lo - but the cost of this is having a lame 2A-2T combo, too)."
How come she can only have a 2A-2T if she has the 3 jump combination?

You're allowed to do three jump combinations.
Out of the three jump combinations you are allowed to do only one 3-jump combination.

 

[TryMeLater]

But that's all it is. There's no actual harm in doing so.

A discussion we can have here is this:

Should it be illegal to perform a triple jump after a double jump in a combo? If it was illegal or at least got a slight penalty(10% BV?), there would be more separation.

It's harder to perform the triple after the double...Midori Ito used to do 2Loop-3Loop as the combo for the SP in the 80's.

 

[TryMeLater]

We aren't going to call it a 2.5A. The fact that it is an axel implies the .5 rotation. It has always been referred to as a 1A, 2A, or 3A. That's not changing now.

Axel jumps are the hardest of the jumps. That doesn't necessarily mean that a 2A is harder than a 3T or 3S or certainly a 3Lz or 3F. Some skaters have worse axel technique than others. That doesn't mean the base value of the jump should be higher.

It seems pretty obvious that most skaters find the 2A-3T to be easier than their 3-3s. 2A-3T is a very common second combo for skaters with a 3-3. 2A-3T is usually their second combo because they want to save their fresh legs for their 3F-3T or 3Lz-3T. Many even save their 2A-3T for the second half of the program, because they know they can do it on tired legs. If the 2A-3T was harder, they would get it out of the way first, or even do TWO 3-3s to avoid the 2A-3T. This isn't really the case for anyone but Evgenia.

Maybe the 2A-3T is easier than 3T-3T - probably depends on each individual skater.

Tarasova always says Axel 2 and half (or 3 and a half) when calling out the jumps, so never say never .

 

[Shayuki]

It's harder to perform the triple after the double...Midori Ito used to do 2Loop-3Loop as the combo for the SP in the 80's.

It's harder to perform a triple after a double than it is to perform a triple after a triple?

Sorry but how does that make any sense?

 

[Hevari]

3-3-2 is harder/riskier, but it does not mathematically make sense to do unless you've got a 3A or quad. I'll also say that I don't think 3-3-2 is significantly harder/riskier than a regular 3-3. The 3-3 is the hardest part of the 3-3-2, and the -2 is really an afterthought.

3-1Lo-3 is a three-jump combo; the ISU says so. Anyway, it is preferred by many skaters who want to repeat jumps other than the -3T or -3Lo, which are the only type of jumps that can be performed at the end of a 3-3. With the option of a 3-1Lo-3 instead of a 3-2-2 or mathematically unnecessary 3-3-2, skaters can diversify based on their skillset.

Doing a 3-3-2 is perfectly feasible, but it's going to make one of your other jumping passes pretty lame (like a 2A-2T). And if you can do a 3-3 and 3-3-2, you might as well do a 3-3 and a 3-3, and then do a 2A-2-2 combo (which is still pretty lame).

But doing a 3-1-3 lets you repeat different jumps, which is what some skaters like to do (it lets Ashley, for example, repeat her 3F and 3Lo - but the cost of this is having a lame 2A-2T combo, too).

Even with 2Lo? (3-3-2Lo, 3-2Lo-2Lo...)

 

[Shayuki]

OK but what do you thing is harder/riskier etc.: popular and trendy 3-1Lo-3 or rare 3-3-2(Lo/T)?

(by the way - for me 3-1Lo-3 is not a "three-jump" combo, but rather a harder variation of two-jump "+SEQ" sequence)

The thing is this...

3Lz+3T, 3Lz+2T, 3F+3T+2T, 3S, 3Lo, 2A, 2A has total BV of 44.6

3Lz+3T, 3F+1Lo+3S, 3Lz+2T, 3F, 3Lo, 2A, 2A has a total BV of 44.8

Doing a 3-3-2 combo really isn't necessary because it's not rewarded.

 

[Hevari]

The thing is this...

3Lz+3T, 3Lz+2T, 3F+3T+2T, 3S, 3Lo, 2A, 2A has total BV of 44.6

3Lz+3T, 3F+1Lo+3S, 3Lz+2T, 3F, 3Lo, 2A, 2A has a total BV of 44.8

Doing a 3-3-2 combo really isn't necessary because it's not rewarded.

3Lz+3T, 3Lz+2Lo, 3F+3T+2Lo, 3S, 3Lo, 2A, 2A has a total BV of 46.3...

So master 2Lo and you will not need that lame 3-2T and 3-1-3's

 

[Shayuki]

Well, with 2 2Los the BV advantage would only be 0.3 points if you do one 2Lo with the 3-1-3 layout. But yeah, that's there I guess. Most do not do 2 2Los, though.

 

[TryMeLater]

It's harder to perform a triple after a double than it is to perform a triple after a triple?

Sorry but how does that make any sense?

I meant that a 2-3 combo is harder than a 3-2 combo.

 

[Shayuki]

I meant that a 2-3 combo is harder than a 3-2 combo.

Yes, yes it is. But I don't see how that's relevant. The context was 2A-3. No one's going to jump a combo like 2T-3Lo-2T because it's just not very smart. I'm trying to talk about things that might actually be relevant to actual skating performances.

 

[TryMeLater]

Yes, yes it is. But I don't see how that's relevant. The context was 2A-3. No one's going to jump a combo like 2T-3Lo-2T because it's just not very smart. I'm trying to talk about things that might actually be relevant to actual skating performances.

A lot of ladies still only jump 3-2 combos and not 3-3.
In a previous post you suggested to lower the bv of any 2-3 combo while in fact a 2-3 combo is more difficult.
Anyway, I do agree that there is a problem with how BV is awarded for combos.
I would give 10% bonus for any -3T/3S combo and 20% for any -3L combo (because its hard to get the full rotation) or award the GOE separately on each jump.
In order to vary the jumping passes I would also make the Euler (1L) an unlisted jump so a 3-1L-3 will not be considered as a three jump combo.

 

[Miller]

I think this is why skaters push themselves to add the difficulty. The hope is that the difficulty will be credited elsewhere (i.e. in PCS), otherwise there would be no point in attempting more difficulty. In fact, if both were awarded the same GOE scores across the board, the 2A-3T + solo 3Lz would actually outscore the 3Lz-3T + solo 2A because, in the former, both passes are eligible for higher GOE because they contain triples. The ISU still hasn't figured out a good way to address this anomaly, and I'm not sure whether it unofficially encourages the judges to factor in jump difficulty into PCS.

THe proposed change to +/-5 GOE should because AFAIK it's based on percentages e.g. 2A-3T + 20% GOE = 7.6 + 1.52 = 9.12. 3Lz + 20% GOE = 7.20, total 16.32. 3Lz-3T + 20% GOE = 10.3 + 2.06 = 12.36, 2A + 20% = 3.3 + 0.66 = 3.96, total 16.32. Maybe there's method in their madness after all!

 

[Shayuki]

A lot of ladies still only jump 3-2 combos and not 3-3.
In a previous post you suggested to lower the bv of any 2-3 combo while in fact a 2-3 combo is more difficult.

Dear lord. It's because of the 2A-3 combo that I'd want to lower the base value of a 2-3 combo. You really don't get this point? The only reason I'm even talking about it so broadly is because I think saying "only a triple after a 2A should have a penalty but not after other doubles" seems too arbitrary.

I'm not even considering other 2-3s, no one has any reason to do them. And they're not even that impressive because they could just 3-3 instead. It is not relevant.

See, a 2-3 has a triple jump combo jump and a 3-2 has a double jump combo jump. To me they're not even comparable. I never talked about a 3-2 in any of these comparisons. Doing a triple jump in a combo is completely different from doing a double jump in a combo. Please stick to scenarios where the combo jump is a triple for this.

 

[gkelly]

Should it be illegal to perform a triple jump after a double jump in a combo? If it was illegal or at least got a slight penalty(10% BV?), there would be more separation.

Absolutely not. If anything, I'd rather see a bonus based on the difficulty of the last jump in the combo, which is certainly much harder to execute in that position than as a solo jump or first jump followed by double toe.

Would you also want a rule against 3T+4T combination? I say give it a bonus, and let's see who will rise to the challenge!

Dear lord. It's because of the 2A-3 combo that I'd want to lower the base value of a 2-3 combo. You really don't get this point? The only reason I'm even talking about it so broadly is because I think saying "only a triple after a 2A should have a penalty but not after other doubles" seems too arbitrary.

I'm not even considering other 2-3s, no one has any reason to do them.

Many skaters would have reason to do them if the fact that they're harder than 3-2 combos were adequately rewarded.

Not everyone can do 3-3 combos. The rules don't apply only to the very elite.

And basic rules about jump scoring apply equally to both sexes, although the SP requirements are different.

Think more broadly

So 3-1-3 is just kinda "substitution" for 3-3S/F+SEQ but still concidered as a three-jump combo? Something illogical...

But why large number of skaters choose 3-1-3 instead of 3-3-2Lo (that seems to earn more BV)?

+1Lo+3F is worth more than +3T+2T.
+1Lo+3S is worth less, but it still allows for another combination ending in 3T elsewhere in the program without having to repeat the toe loop instead of more valuable triples.

And they're not even that impressive because they could just 3-3 instead. It is not relevant.

Some skaters do both. Putting the +1Lo+3F or +1Lo+3S at the end of a combination gives them more options and also shows a wider variety of jump combination skills, in case any judges notice and care about the variety.

 

[yume]

I would give 10% bonus for any -3T/3S combo

Is it possible? I think that maybe the skater have to be able to jump in both directions.

 

[Shayuki]

Absolutely not. If anything, I'd rather see a bonus based on the difficulty of the last jump in the combo, which is certainly much harder to execute in that position than as a solo jump or first jump followed by double toe.

Would you also want a rule against 3T+4T combination? I say give it a bonus, and let's see who will rise to the challenge!



Many skaters would have reason to do them if the fact that they're harder than 3-2 combos were adequately rewarded.

Not everyone can do 3-3 combos. The rules don't apply only to the very elite.

And basic rules about jump scoring apply equally to both sexes, although the SP requirements are different.

Think more broadly



+1Lo+3F is worth more than +3T+2T.
+1Lo+3S is worth less, but it still allows for another combination ending in 3T elsewhere in the program without having to repeat the toe loop instead of more valuable triples.



Some skaters do both. Putting the +1Lo+3F or +1Lo+3S at the end of a combination gives them more options and also shows a wider variety of jump combination skills, in case any judges notice and care about the variety.

I think realistically. In the current state, no one does any other 2-3s anyway. Adding a penalty to it doesn't hurt these combos because they effectively don't exist.

2A-3 is a big problem to me because it's so much easier to do than 3-3. Pre-junior/junior skaters can learn it several years before they have a stable 3-3 combo. Skaters don't get punished essentially at all for just doing 2A-3 instead. And as for skaters of all levels - Yes, they'd obviously need to learn to 3-3, too. Is that actually a problem? To me, it is not. It just creates some further separation. That's a positive, not a negative.

On +1Lo+3F vs +1Lo+3S, there's no difference. The same jumps will be jumped, it's a 0.0 point BV difference for the full program, whether you +3F or +3S. That's one of the reasons I consider +3F to be vastly overrated, by the way. There's no need to do it there. (For ladies only)



On 3T+4T, meh. I don't want to see unnecessarily gimped quads. If it was something like 3F+4T where it's impossible to perform the combo other way around, that's more interesting. But I doubt it's a relevant concern. As a general rule, the quads should be as high and powerful as possible. Gimping them by doing them as the second jump of a combo takes away from it.

 

[TontoK]

Is it possible? I think that maybe the skater have to be able to jump in both directions.

I have always been intrigued by this theoretical possibility.

If the second jump in a combo is counter-rotated to the first, you get combos with a lutz as the second jump.

I wonder if counter-rotated jump combos would count as a Zayak issue. If a skater performed a 3Z/3Z combination (opposite rotating the second jump) would it count as two lutzes under the Zayak rule?