2018 Worlds Mens Free Skate

[Sportfan]

There have been rumours of an injury all season long. I do believe Shoma when he says that he's not, of course, but going to the hospital to have x-rays, not being able to land his flip and loop all week, I think there was more to it than boot problems.

Excuses again

 

[slider11]

I admit that I did not find Nathan Chen's FS very captivating. However his SP, when skated well, I thought was well-balanced and interesting. I for one, hope that the quads are de-valuated, and a resurgence occurs of quality spins, step sequences and choreography. It probably wouldn't change the outcome of yesterday's men's competition. But it would provide far more interesting performances.

Please let's not sacrifice the health of our young skaters by promoting these incessant difficult jumps that are putting enormous strain on their bones and joints. It's just a matter of time until these young people have serious injuries with lifelong implications. The quad may not go away but limiting them and replacing them with other artistically pleasing elements would be my ideal moving forward.

 

[Matriochka]

I admit I secretly hoped that the first worlds in quite a few years without Fernández, Chan and/or Hanyu present would not be very impressive, but this was a bit of an exaggeration even for me...

The first two groups failed to impress despite Aliev's effort (but was glad to see him make good after the poor SP), the third group proved better with Deniss and Misha delivering very beautiful performances, especially Deniss who was really on fire (not my fave program from him, though). Seeing Brezina skate like that was also amazing, but I do hope he realizes that it might be time to move on. The past five years have been quite bad and this one good uting is perhaps not enough to redeem his career. Tomono was quite good despite the relatively horrible music cut (West Side Story is tough and would require a better skater with better choreo to really work out).

But the last group? Well, a lot has been said already obviously. I counted at least 24 planned quads and most of them were miserably failed. I counted maybe 7 with positive GOEs and 5 of them were in Nathan's program. Messing is not skilled enough and interesting to watch for 4 and a half minutes. Twofooted most of the time. The rest were just plain awful in execution, but then again the programs for the most part did not hold great promise to begin with. Zhou is slower than a snail. The more I look into Shoma's skating the less he feels like the real thing. For the most part empty and simple programs with poor quality jumps with one-sided and repetitive performances... I don't get how he gets away with those URs though. Kolyada's Elvis program's only good part was that hopefully I will never have to watch it again. He still has only maybe 4T as a quad.

And Nathan? Skating crossovers, progressives and other simple stuff from one end of the rink to another with little half-baked arm posing in between really does not make an enjoyable program. The jumps were ok at least, but I would like to see them incorporated into a proper program instead of there being 2 minutes of very little else than jumps. He still has a lot of work ahead of him before actually becoming a well-rounded skater. But at least he remained on his feet. I give him the title for that.

E

That's a perfect analyse.

- - - Updated - - -

Jin overscored ? He finished 20 th...

 

[Matriochka]

Hello people,
Someone knows the link to watch the gala ? Thanks a lot !

 

[TerpsichoreFS]

There have been rumours of an injury all season long. I do believe Shoma when he says that he's not, of course, but going to the hospital to have x-rays, not being able to land his flip and loop all week, I think there was more to it than boot problems.

Wether Shoma is injured or not doesn't influence our opinion on wether he should have gotten second or not.

 

[chopinskate]

because one is Yuru and the other is Nathan?.... if you are going to be consistence then let be consistence!

Because one did a program with transitions and actual choreography and the other didn't. If we're going to let programs like the latter be given 91 PCS, then let's inform the entire world so everyone can get 91 PCS! Consistency!

 

[WineHerUp]

Emm I heard Raf said to Russian media that Nate has training 4A. Yeahh, it may be so hard to beat him next season with all those quads

He should learn how to land a triple axel properly before upgrading to a quad but the judges are probably going to give him +goes even if the jumps are ugly/lacking steps...

 

[chopinskate]

He should learn how to land a triple axel properly before upgrading to a quad but the judges are probably going to give him +goes even if the jumps are ugly/lacking steps...

I now can't get over how quickly standards change. Filling programs up with quads with bad PCS wasn't fine when no one else had those cards to play. But now it is, and we're supposed to invent the PCS with our own eyes. Or believe others who tell us how great the artistry is.

 

[cchen24]

For those of you so obsessed with how the PCS should be marked, here is a review of history:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2006/SEG003.HTM

These top skaters were at the very best of their career, and I only see one 8.
Were their skating skills so inferior to the current top skaters?
My answer is no.

What is happening? As far as I know, the ladies are not doing quads or triple axels.

What should be the basis for objective analysis?
These judges don't even have a firm basis for marking PCS, as far as I can tell.

To me, they just keep inflating the score, in a broader time frame.
In a short time frame, inflation of PCS could easily happen as well.
As the last skater in a splatfest, Nathan Chen, with an almost clean skate, was given a bit higher PCS than he normally receives, is it that big of a deal? To some people here, it almost seems like a scandal.

To me, the inflation of PCS does not necessarily correlate with men's multiple quads, since they inflate PCS in all disciplines.
Instead, it is more like the ISU tries to make things more "exciting".
To an average viewer, seeing PCS scores of top skaters close to 10 creates some drama and makes things more interesting.

I, for one, can see this and will not waste my time analyzing why this skater's SS should be 8.75 instead of 9.25.
Well, back in 2006, it probably should have been 7.00!

 

[Kelly]

Because one did a program with transitions and actual choreography and the other didn't. If we're going to let programs like the latter be given 91 PCS, then let's inform the entire world so everyone can get 91 PCS! Consistency!

The world has already been informed when Nathan came to seniors and anyone can try this kind of strategy if they want or can although ISU is undergoing the new rules for the coming quad.

It's nothing new that the judges always give PCS and even GOE not just by rule book but also in correlation within a group of performance.
Nathan was the last one to skate in the final group, and since the judges gave both Shoma (fell 3 times) Mikhail (fell 2 times) 88+ PCS, they knew first they need to give Nathan (no falls, 5 clean quads) at least more than 89+ PCS and then they gave out the scores in the 5 categories of the program components accordingly. So it's really meaningless to me just focusing on if Nathan's LP performance worthy of 91 PCS or not or comparing his PCS to Yuzuru's PCS when Yuzuru was not in the final group here.

 

[chopinskate]

The world has already been informed when Nathan came to seniors and anyone can try this kind of strategy if they want or can although ISU is undergoing the new rules for the coming quad.

No, they weren't. As a matter of fact, look at what happened a year before he came in to the seniors: When Boyang Jin tried 4 quads in his senior LP. Did he ever receive 91 PCS for a completely clean program (which Nathan's wasn't)? If one extra clean quad with similarly a watered down program is somehow worth 91 PCS, then yes, this is in fact the first time we have come to know of it.

It's nothing new that the judges always give PCS and even GOE not just by rule book but also in correlation within a group of performance. Nathan was the last one to skate in the final group, and since the judges gave both Shoma (fell 3 times) Mikhail (fell 2 times) 88+ PCS, they knew first they need to give Nathan (no falls, 5 clean quads) at least more than 89+ PCS and then they gave out the scores in the 5 categories of the program components accordingly.

It is not new. It is also not correct. See below for question time. And the assumptions and arguments you make are also not too strong.

Shoma fell three times, yet scored 88. Only 3 points below Nathan. Are zero falls correlated with only a 3 point rise in PCS? What was going on there, then?

Shoma fell three times and yet had pretty high GOE on a few jumps. He was fairly early in the group. What were the judges doing there, then?

Also, why did the judges "know" they needed to give Nathan 89+ PCS? Are you sure that people who fall always get lower PCS than the ones who don't? Are the last ones to skate, who also happen to not fall, the ones to score highest PCS? (Hint: W2017)

Was there a need for the judges to correlate his technical ability with his PCS? Was there a real need for Nathan to be scored with 91 PCS? He would have won with zero falls anyway.

So it's really meaningless to me just focusing on if Nathan's LP performance worthy of 91 PCS or not or comparing his PCS to Yuzuru's PCS when Yuzuru was not in the final group here.

Sure. I wasn't the one to bring up that topic, as you can see by trailing back through the post you quoted.

The judging standards are very poor and this competition is a pretty good example of why they need to be changed. It is not an argument against Nathan's win. It is not people trolling (and I'm certainly not trolling you). But the judges keep moving the goalpost, and it is not right. By the ISU's own standards, Nathan didn't deserve the PCS. ISU can either announce to the world what they should be doing, and hold those standards for everyone, or they can announce who their favourites are, so others can stop bothering. Yuzuru Hanyu, Boyang Jin, Shoma Uno could also just be working on nothing but quads, and yet they aren't.

 

[Old Cat Lady]

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding by some posters of the difference between IJS and 6.0. 6.0 scoring was a relative judging system - i.e. while the scores are meant to reflect somewhat of the level of skating, ultimately they were just place markers and it didn't matter how much better the 1st place skater did than the 2nd place. hence why nationals scores are so much higher than international scoring under 6.0

IJS is supposed to be an absolute scoring system. All the scores, both in technical and components are supposed to be scored independently of the other factors to the scoring in an effort to reduce subjectivity - outside of not getting 10's, falls don't even affect some of the components unless other parts of the program are altered because of the falls just like the difficulty of jumps are supposed to have zero affect on the components or the GOE. The components are not supposed to just be a marker of ranking between skaters and are supposed to show the disparity of levels. The problem is that the judges use the components relatively and IJS doesn't clearly define what is required to achieve each score. Compared to what skaters got in other years for similar choreographic content and quality of skating, judges spotted Nathan 5-10 points on components. Which was stupid in this competition since Nathan was a well deserved champion without the inflation and just gives fans more of a reason to criticize the sport.

 

[chopinskate]

Compared to what skaters got in other years for similar choreographic content and quality of skating, judges spotted Nathan 5-10 points on components.

More like 15.

Which was stupid in this competition since Nathan was a well deserved champion without the inflation and just gives fans more of a reason to criticize the sport.

Exactly.

 

[dalenofff]

Because one did a program with transitions and actual choreography and the other didn't. If we're going to let programs like the latter be given 91 PCS, then let's inform the entire world so everyone can get 91 PCS! Consistency!

no, they both did the same programs and PCS were in crease for both yet one is treated like it was expected and the other is lament and beginning said that it was not deserve. Where is the consistency in that?

 

[chopinskate]

no, they both did the same programs and PCS were in crease for both yet one is treated like it was expected and the other is lament and beginning said that it was not deserve. Where is the consistency in that?

Really? You think Nathan's program hasn't been watered down since the GPF?

 

[dalenofff]

Really? You think Nathan's program hasn't been watered down since the GPF?

look the same to me, please point out the different.... tell me where the watered down part is?

 

[chopinskate]

look the same to me, please point out the different.... tell me where the watered down part is?

OK! Then Nathan deserved 74 there, and 77 here.

If you can't see for yourself what has happened to his programs through the season, and want him to get a boost of 3 PCS in the WCs just because someone else did at some other point, and want to say his program at the GPF was just as empty as it was here, then that's the way it would be scored.

 

[Kelly]

No, they weren't. As a matter of fact, look at what happened a year before he came in to the seniors: When Boyang Jin tried 4 quads in his senior LP. Did he ever receive 91 PCS for a completely clean program (which Nathan's wasn't)? If one extra clean quad with similarly a watered down program is somehow worth 91 PCS, then yes, this is in fact the first time we have come to know of it.

I don't want to bring in Boyang because it's irrelevant. This FS is only the second time Nathan skates a no fall 6 quads program this season and his
entire senior career. The 1st time he did it in the Olympic, he's in the 2nd group, two groups away from the final group, and he got 87+ PCS which actually is only 3 points more than his 2016 GPF LP ("only" 4 squeaky-clean quads and they all in the 1st half).
Don't tell me the skating order, the TEC difficulty and the reputation, (many people also want to bring up the power of the federation) shouldn't affect the PCS.
That's the way it is.

It is not new. It is also not correct. See below for question time. And the assumptions and arguments you make are also not too strong.

Shoma fell three times, yet scored 88. Only 3 points below Nathan. Are zero falls correlated with only a 3 point rise in PCS? What was going on there, then?

Shoma fell three times and yet had pretty high GOE on a few jumps. He was fairly early in the group. What were the judges doing there, then?

Also, why did the judges "know" they needed to give Nathan 89+ PCS? Are you sure that people who fall always get lower PCS than the ones who don't? Are the last ones to skate, who also happen to not fall, the ones to score highest PCS? (Hint: W2017)

Was there a need for the judges to correlate his technical ability with his PCS? Was there a real need for Nathan to be scored with 91 PCS? He would have won with zero falls anyway.

I said the judges "know" is from my observation of years of watching figure skating. It's OK if that doesn't make sense to you.
I know very little of how the judges evaluate Program Components but somehow when I watched this men FS live, before Nathan's score came up, I knew his PCS would be higher than Shoma's this time because Nathan was the last skater, he skated a historical TEC program when the judges had been bombarded with more than 10 falls before him:sad46:, and Nathan had earned some reputation marks for his Olympic LP redemption.

Sure. I wasn't the one to bring up that topic, as you can see by trailing back through the post you quoted.

The judging standards are very poor and this competition is a pretty good example of why they need to be changed. It is not an argument against Nathan's win. It is not people trolling (and I'm certainly not trolling you). But the judges keep moving the goalpost, and it is not right. By the ISU's own standards, Nathan didn't deserve the PCS. ISU can either announce to the world what they should be doing, and hold those standards for everyone, or they can announce who their favourites are, so others can stop bothering. Yuzuru Hanyu, Boyang Jin, Shoma Uno could also just be working on nothing but quads, and yet they aren't.

As long as the judging is by people, no matter how the rule changes, to reach an absolute consistency and objectivity is beyond reality.
Every athlete and their team can decide if they want to just working on nothing but quads to have a 6-quad program so that they can have
90+ PCS.:sarcasm:

PS. Nathan to me is not just about quads.

 

[Yatagarasu]

Every athlete and their team can decide if they want to just working on nothing but quads to have a 6-quad program so that they can have
90+ PCS.

Yeah, no.

What we need is ISU coming out and saying this, officially in the rules. So that we don't get one standard for Boyang and another for Nathan because one has China to his name and the other one has USA.

What is the problem? If the ISU wants the correlation of number of quads and PCS, then come out and say it. But they don't want that. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They say they want well rounded skaters and then promptly ignore that when the flag next to the skater's name suits them. When it doesn't, we're back to work on this, work on that. So if you want equal treatment for everyone, I don't see what's the issue with outright stating things in the rules.

 

[Metis]

I do not have to justify marks not given by me. You can "question" any marks all you want.

If you weren’t insulting anyone and everyone who disagreed with the marks given, no, you wouldn’t haven’t to justify them. But you are, so now you do. Nathan beat every single skater in each of the five components — which means he has better skating skills than Uno, Misha Ge, Kolyada, and even Rizzo. Really? Really?

That’s not a matter of inflation over time or even the absolute value. I’m asking you to justify the relative value based on what it means. And I’m saying I can’t, so why don’t you, who sees all questions regarding Nathan’s PCS as mere complaining, please contribute something useful to the conversation?

And yes, I did have some logic courses. As a matter of fact, I have a PhD in science.
Are you only capable of insulting someone who disagrees with you?

It was a remark that was meant in jest, as indicated by the smiley, though tone is difficult on the internet. It was not an actual insult. Though if you want to measure credentials... congrats on your doctorate. It has nothing to do with your knowledge of figure skating, just as my alleged high-140s IQ is entirely irrelevant (and I don’t think highly of IQ as a construct, hence “alleged”).

OK, keep on complaining all you want. I just think you need to get a life.

Ah, “get a life.” The last refuge of a man with no argument. You certainly weren’t saying that when I was defending you in Nathan’s fan fest.

More to the point, I’m on a shortened life expectancy. Autoimmune. Had the death with dignity conversation in my 20s. Thanks, though, for the advice. I actually thumb-type all my posts off a phone because I can’t use a laptop. [emoji23]