2018-19 U.S. Men’s figure skating

[Tavi...]

Vincent's problem is more of a landing technique issue than actually not physically being able to get the rotation (if he scaled back to triples, he would still under-rotate, without changes being made). On the other hand, Jason's problem seems to be a physical rotation issue (meaning he simply isn't rotating fast enough to get the rotation, his issues would get worse if he attempted quads).

Jason Brown hasn't been rotating his 3A consistently either. Should he scale back? (Jason would not UR a 2A. Vincent *may* UR a 2A because his issues are not rotation, it is more the landing technique) So it would make sense for Jason to scale back but not for Vincent.

Is it really necessary to turn this thread into a game of “you attacked Vincent so I’m gonna attack Jason”? Maybe you could, for example, discuss what you think will happen at Nats or what you’d like to see from particular skaters instead?

For the record, Jason did scale back his content in France and Croatia for specific reasons - the explanations are readily available if you’re interested. By the way, Vincent and Nathan also scaled back their content this season, but in their last two comps, both were still were dinged with multiple <. Food for thought.

 

[ice coverage]

Better yet: How about no attacking of any skater?

---

New stuff to discuss: Nathan's and Jason's media calls from this afternoon.

ETA, another topic:

Any early thoughts on who will go to YOG 2020? (To compete and to meet this crazy mascot.)

Camden went in 2016. No U.S. man in 2012.​

 

[Tavi...]

Better yet: How about no attacking of any skater?

---

New stuff to discuss: Nathan's and Jason's media calls from this afternoon.

ETA, another topic:

Any early thoughts on who will go to YOG 2020? (To compete and to meet this crazy mascot.)

Camden went in 2016. No U.S. man in 2012.​

I agree, no attacking of any skaters is best. My asides about Vincent and Nathan’s < were not intended as attacks on them or criticism, and I hope nobody took them that way.

Do you know if USFS is publishing the media telecoms the way they used to or are we just getting info from tweets?

 

[bobbob]

Is it really necessary to turn this thread into a game of “you attacked Vincent so I’m gonna attack Jason”? Maybe you could, for example, discuss what you think will happen at Nats or what you’d like to see from particular skaters instead?

For the record, Jason did scale back his content in France and Croatia for specific reasons - the explanations are readily available if you’re interested. By the way, Vincent and Nathan also scaled back their content this season, but in their last two comps, both were still were dinged with multiple <. Food for thought.

I think the comments of scaling back would be more relevant to Jason than to Vincent, for the reasons mentioned above. I think that is very relevant for Nationals. For Nats, I'd like to see Jason up his content to at least the level, of Rika Kihira, if he isn't planning on doing quads. Vincent, obviously fix his URs. Nathan, skate clean.

Why did Jason scale back his content? Looking at his short he is capable of landing all the triples, so why isn't he doing them in the free? He has only been averaging 5 triples a free skate this year, attempting 6, it would be nice to see at least 7 being attempted.

Nathan has only gotten one UR on a non-quad jump this season (in a combo with a quad). That is nowhere near as many as Jason or Vincent.

 

[Mrs. P]

Tl;dr on media calls:

Jason plans on attempting the 4S in the free skate (and I assume keep everything else). Tracy Wilson will be with him. He is still working on the 4T in practice.

Nathan sounds like he wants to do 4Z in the SP and it sounds like he won’t be at 4CC cause of school. He is missing school to do Nats.

 

[ice coverage]

I agree, no attacking of any skaters is best. My asides about Vincent and Nathan’s < we’re not intended as attacks on them or criticism, and I hope nobody took them that way. ...

No worries, I did not take them that way.

Appreciate that you and others are keeping this thread active.
Was just expressing a general hope that discussion from all can go forward without any tone of attack from anyone.

---

… Do you know if USFS is publishing the media telecoms the way they used to or are we just getting info from tweets?

afaik, USFS did not publish audio of media calls for 2018 Skate America, so I am not optimistic that it will for Nats.

In addition to tweets, we can keep an eye out for quotes in articles -- whether used right away in previews of Nats or whether woven into competition reports once the event starts. Sometimes "new" bits from calls don't get mentioned until later.

Thanks to Mrs. P (and others in other threads) for pulling together tweeted content and posting on GS.

 

[Mrs. P]

Since this keeps coming up here are how Jason has fared with the tech panel:

4S
He popped both attempts to a 2S.

3A:
12 attempts
7/12 ratified as rotated
6/12 plus GOE
2/12 popped 1A at ACI, 2A at SCI
3/12 UR

3Z
8 attempts
5/8 ratified
3/8 +GOE
2/8 UR
1/8 pop to 2z

3F
8 attempts
8/8 ratified and with plus GOE.
(He did zayak a combo 3f-2t combos due to being the third 2t)

3Lo
4 attempts
3/4 ratified with Plus GOE
1 pop to 2Lo

3S
4 attempts
4/4 ratified with Plus GOE.

I’ll come back and do combos and 3t.

 

[el henry]

Tl;dr on media calls:

Jason plans on attempting the 4S in the free skate (and I assume keep everything else). Tracy Wilson will be with him. He is still working on the 4T in practice.

Nathan sounds like he wants to do 4Z in the SP and it sounds like he won’t be at 4CC cause of school. He is missing school to do Nats.

Is there a I’m retired so nothing is too long to read version

Or is that Lynn and FS Online Tweets?

 

[Tavi...]

I think the comments of scaling back would be more relevant to Jason than to Vincent, for the reasons mentioned above. I think that is very relevant for Nationals. For Nats, I'd like to see Jason up his content to at least the level, of Rika Kihira, if he isn't planning on doing quads. Vincent, obviously fix his URs. Nathan, skate clean.

Why did Jason scale back his content? Looking at his short he is capable of landing all the triples, so why isn't he doing them in the free? He has only been averaging 5 triples a free skate this year, attempting 6, it would be nice to see at least 7 being attempted.

Nathan has only gotten one UR on a non-quad jump this season (in a combo with a quad). That is nowhere near as many as Jason or Vincent.

Well you’ll be happy to know that Jason plans a 4S in his free skate at Nats as well as a full complement of triples. As to scaling back, in his last two comps, the only planned change was subbing a 2A for the 4S. In France that was bc he simply wasn’t landing the 4S in practice. My guess is that had as much to do with building his confidence back after last season as thinking maybe he could beat Nathan if he skated clean and executed perfectly. In Croatia they took it out bc he had a minor ankle injury. And yes he’s fully capable of all the triples. All of the excess doubles in those two programs were unplanned pops. Jason has mentioned a couple of times that he’s in between two techniques and that sometimes he struggles with not going back to the old ways. Whether the pops resulted from that, nerves, a lack of focus, a lack of stamina, or something else, I don’t know.

Re Nathan, I really do not want to criticize him or his jumps. But I will say that I think you’re cherry picking. Sorry. :dev2:

 

[Mrs. P]

Yes Jason has more of a popping problem than a a rotation problem.

He repeats the 3T in his FS this season due to doing combos. The inconsistency is more a product that he has changed his combos a bit.

In the SP he kept the 3Z-3T al season long. That is a switch from the 3F-3T he’s done in past seasons. He is 3/4 with the 3t at the end. At ACI he UR the 3Z. At SCI he popped into a 2t. He nailed the combo at his last two events.

The fs combos has changed over the course of the season.
At ACI he aimed for 3A-3t and 3z-3t-2t and 3f-2t. He popped the 3a-3t combo to 1A-2t. He Ur the -3t jump with the 3Z combo but he improv a 3f-3t.

At SCI they changed to 3A-3t, 3a-2t-2l and 3f-3t. He kept them for the rest of the season.

At SCI he got the 3A-3t but he UR the 3t in the 3F-3T. He popped the 3a-2t-2l into 2a-2t-2l.
At France he popped both 3t in his combos and zayaked on the 3f-2t combo as a result.
In GS, He popped the 3t in the 3A combo but he got the 3f-3t.

So he had two urs and a whole lot of pops with the 3T. That has been where he left a lot of points. So if he can clean that up that will help him.

 

[Weathergal]

Hey I like this little survey that is on the Japanese men/ladies threads! Let's try it here. Obviously answer with the applicable U.S. men.


1) Your favorite U.S. man in 2018
2) Your favorite program of the year
3) Your favorite performance
4) Your favorite costume
5) The biggest surprise
6) The most sad moment/event
7) The happiest moment/event
8) The most promising junior
9) The most promising senior
10) Your wish for 2019

Great call, Mrs. P! Please share your favorites list with us as well!

1) Your favorite U.S. man in 2018 - Nathan Chen
2) Your favorite program of the year - Nathan's"Nemesis" SP. Such a fun, original program and a great fit for him. Truly made me see him in a whole new light. Bravo to Shae-Lynn as well.
3) Your favorite performance - All of Adam's Olympics performances were wonderful, but I especially enjoyed his FS in the team event.
4) Your favorite costume - Adam's blue/green/white costume for his FS.
5) The biggest surprise - Nathan being so low in the Olympics SP and coming back so strongly in the Olympics FS.
6) The most sad moment/event - Max Aaron's retirement. I will really miss his skating and his gentle, kind personality.
7) The happiest moment/event - Nathan's win at Worlds
8) The most promising junior - Camden Pulkinen
9) The most promising senior - Nathan Chen
10) Your wish for 2019 - that Jason Brown continues to thrive and improve with the TCC team and has even more success on the ice.

 

[rachno2]

Hey I like this little survey that is on the Japanese men/ladies threads! Let's try it here. Obviously answer with the applicable U.S. men.


1) Your favorite U.S. man in 2018
2) Your favorite program of the year
3) Your favorite performance
4) Your favorite costume
5) The biggest surprise
6) The most sad moment/event
7) The happiest moment/event
8) The most promising junior
9) The most promising senior
10) Your wish for 2019

I love these kinds of posts

1. Favorite US man: Camden Pulkinen (I also like Tomoki and Jason)
2. Favorite program: Nathan Chen, Nemesis
3. Favorite performance: Jason Brown, IdF SP
4. Favorite costume: Adam Rippon, Arrival of the Birds
5. Most surprising moment: Ross Miner winning silver at Nats (I’m still shook!)
6. The most sad moment/event: Nathan’s Olympics SP—I felt physically ill for him what with all the media coverage/pressure. Miner not making the team was also a very sad moment, even though it was justified by the selection criteria. I would have sent him, personally.
7. The happiest moment/event: The Worlds 2018 podium I was pleased to see Nathan get his redemption.
8. The most promising junior: Andrew Torgashev
9. The most promising senior: Alexei Krasnozhon
10. Your wish for 2019: I would like for the incoming senior trio (Camden, Andrew, Tomoki....I assume they are all moving up? I hope so, because I want to refer to them as the Cool CATs) to acquire/stabilize quads.

 

[skylark]

Quote Originally Posted by bobbob View Post
Vincent's problem is more of a landing technique issue than actually not physically being able to get the rotation (if he scaled back to triples, he would still under-rotate, without changes being made). On the other hand, Jason's problem seems to be a physical rotation issue (meaning he simply isn't rotating fast enough to get the rotation, his issues would get worse if he attempted quads).

Jason Brown hasn't been rotating his 3A consistently either. Should he scale back? (Jason would not UR a 2A. Vincent *may* UR a 2A because his issues are not rotation, it is more the landing technique) So it would make sense for Jason to scale back but not for Vincent.

Is it really necessary to turn this thread into a game of “you attacked Vincent so I’m gonna attack Jason”?

That isn't the way I read bobbob's posts, at all. And if you're going to call out bobbob, why not call out karne, who really did attack Vincent?

Or ... perhaps Vincent ought to have been a little more considerate with his wording. :sarcasm: Maybe he didn't realize a GS'r would blow her top that way and cause her friends to fear for her health. Just kidding. Golly gee, Spiderman.

For the record, I always like it when skaters speak honestly and openly. That's what Vincent did. And I agree with CanadianSkaterGuy's interpretation of what Vincent said.

 

[el henry]

That isn't the way I read bobbob's posts, at all. And if you're going to call out bobbob, why not call out karne, who really did attack Vincent?

Or ... perhaps Vincent ought to have been a little more considerate with his wording. :sarcasm: Maybe he didn't realize a GS'r would blow her top that way and cause her friends to fear for her health. Just kidding. Golly gee, Spiderman.

For the record, I always like it when skaters speak honestly and openly. That's what Vincent did. And I agree with CanadianSkaterGuy's interpretation of what Vincent said.

I don't pay much attention to posters who think that Jason is the only one who needs to change. Too bad, so sad, I've heard that for four years...... Luckily, the system appears to be rewarding some of Jason's strengths now. So I agree with @Tavi's analysis.

Vincent appears an intelligent and thoughtful young man. His team gave him the wrong plan. He UR'd last year, and it wasn't called. He UR'd this year, and it was. The definition of a UR is the same. His plan that wow, the judges are gonna be overwhelmed by four quads, UR or not, isn't going to work this year. So I disagree with any analysis that says oops, the definition of UR is different this year. It's not. The penalty, thank the good Lord above, is.

I don't fear for @Karne's health at all, since she speaks words of truth. She did not attack Vincent, she attacked his URs, as she has, to give her credit, consistently. I applaud that consistency

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Uh, except he was still getting called UR plenty of times under the "old" definition of acceptable rotation so clearly his definition was way out.



Because acting like this is new or that this is because of the rule change is exactly the problem! The problem didn't just magically develop this season! It's been a problem for him over a prolonged period of time and he and his team ignored it because apparently, according to him, his jumps were "acceptably rotated". Again, it's pushing responsibility off Vincent and his coaches and onto someone else. "Oh, it's not Vincent's fault, they changed the definition". Newsflash, he was underrotating under either definition!



Oh please. I've actually gone on record - in this very thread - as saying that I believed Vincent should scale back or even remove the quads entirely until he can start rotating them and the triple Axel consistently. That he should pick one quad, work on getting that and the triple Axel around, and then look at adding others back in. Nice try, pal.

Just at the last Worlds he had a clean SP with both quads ratified the way HE trained them. So clearly that meant his definition of rotation was a ratifiable one even if not consistently so. At the Olympics he had 3 different ratified quads in his FS. This was all within the last year. "Underotating under either definition"?! Nice try, gal.

 

[oatmella]

‘Terrible attitude’ seems to be addressing more than just Vincent’s UR ?

 

[el henry]

‘Terrible attitude’ seems to be addressing more than just Vincent’s UR ?

But I don’t understand that opinion. I have seen no attitude, but only posts showing understanding to the skater himself and hopes that he will indeed improve his artistry. And calling out the URs.

Maybe I am battle hardened, but Jason fans have seen way worse over the years

Certainly nothing along the lines of sarcasm emojis and “nice try”. But maybe I am missing something

 

[oatmella]

Vincent’s supposed ‘terrible attitude’ was from karne’s post:

THAT'S why it's super important for tech panels to be STRICT. Because if they're not, you get terrible attitudes like that.

 

[bennorii]

I was thinking about two things.

If Nathan isn't committing to competing at 4CC, then placing 4th at Nationals is important because there's a high chance that you'd be selected to compete there and then get experience and WS points. I think it's probable to say that the 4th place finisher could be one of the junior men, so that would be great experience for them if they are assigned there in addition to JW. But because of how inconsistent and chaotic the mens' field could be, we could see a sentimental favorite be sent there, which would also give more time for the junior men to prepare for JW.

It seems like the fed is also sending some skaters to the Winter Universiade. Does anyone know their criteria for selection?

 

[Ice Dance]

Vincent’s supposed ‘terrible attitude’ was from karne’s post:

THAT'S why it's super important for tech panels to be STRICT. Because if they're not, you get terrible attitudes like that.

She was every bit as anti-Nathan before he entered seniors, and he has always had very strong rotation relative to the field. Let's not blame technical panels.

I'm not sure why posters are still having this Jason vs. Vincent argument. If either one of them fails to make the team, it will very likely be their own fault.