2018-19 U.S. Men’s figure skating

[Mrs. P]

Because everyone forgot there are three spots lol. Thanks, Max (and Nathan, ofc).

 

[Tahuu]

Top 3 and their selection to the world team are almost set in stone this year. It's a worry-free nationals. Peace.

 

[el henry]

Vincent’s supposed ‘terrible attitude’ was from karne’s post:

THAT'S why it's super important for tech panels to be STRICT. Because if they're not, you get terrible attitudes like that.

OK, thank you, now I understand. I was mistaken as to what you were referring to.

I’m not sure I agree that Vincent’s explanations evince a “terrible attitude”, I think he was led astray by his team. They thought multiple quads was the way to wow the judges. And Tom Z. did spend some time telling us why he thought the judges were wrong. But just as with Tom Z., it would be my opinion the better course of valor is to say, yep, according to the judges they’re underrotated, period, and yep, I’m gonna fix it, period.

And I do agree with @karne and others that two perfect quads are going to serve Vincent much better than four imperfect ones. Which I have no doubt he could do:thumbsup:

 

[bobbob]

I don't pay much attention to posters who think that Jason is the only one who needs to change. Too bad, so sad, I've heard that for four years...... Luckily, the system appears to be rewarding some of Jason's strengths now. So I agree with @Tavi's analysis.

Vincent appears an intelligent and thoughtful young man. His team gave him the wrong plan. He UR'd last year, and it wasn't called. He UR'd this year, and it was. The definition of a UR is the same. His plan that wow, the judges are gonna be overwhelmed by four quads, UR or not, isn't going to work this year. So I disagree with any analysis that says oops, the definition of UR is different this year. It's not. The penalty, thank the good Lord above, is.

I don't fear for @Karne's health at all, since she speaks words of truth. She did not attack Vincent, she attacked his URs, as she has, to give her credit, consistently. I applaud that consistency

I think that posters who think only Vincent needs to change, not Jason, are definitely misguided. Both of them under-rotate. I would argue Jason's quads are significantly more under-rotated on average than Vincent's.

Karne definitely attacked Vincent's "terrible attitude", which is totally off base. I don't think or Vincent or Jason have a terrible attitude on URs, I just think both need to improve in this aspect, as well as improving their jump difficulty, which is always a good thing.

 

[el henry]

I think that posters who think only Vincent needs to change, not Jason, are definitely misguided. Both of them under-rotate. I would argue Jason's quads are significantly more under-rotated on average than Vincent's.

Karne definitely attacked Vincent's "terrible attitude", which is totally off base. I don't think or Vincent or Jason have a terrible attitude on URs, I just think both need to improve in this aspect, as well as improving their jump difficulty, which is always a good thing.

I misunderstood the terrible attitude quote, which I mentioned above.

If only Jason UR’d quads; he simply isn’t landing them in competition He has landed one quad in competition, in 2016, which was called UR but looked fine to me. Then again, I can’t even count revolutions correctly half the time, so I might not be the best judge. But the judges tend not to hand out > signs for Jason, it’s just that he either falls, or this year, pops. Those pops are very frustrating because his jumps could be beautiful.

I agree everyone can improve something. Vincent can improve on overall program quality, reducing the number of quads in a program and perfecting the ones he lands. Jason can improve on getting a quad in competition and not popping the jumps he tries.

I’m too tired to talk about anyone else.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't pay much attention to posters who think that Jason is the only one who needs to change. Too bad, so sad, I've heard that for four years...... Luckily, the system appears to be rewarding some of Jason's strengths now. So I agree with @Tavi's analysis.

Vincent appears an intelligent and thoughtful young man. His team gave him the wrong plan. He UR'd last year, and it wasn't called. He UR'd this year, and it was. The definition of a UR is the same. His plan that wow, the judges are gonna be overwhelmed by four quads, UR or not, isn't going to work this year. So I disagree with any analysis that says oops, the definition of UR is different this year. It's not. The penalty, thank the good Lord above, is.

I don't fear for @Karne's health at all, since she speaks words of truth. She did not attack Vincent, she attacked his URs, as she has, to give her credit, consistently. I applaud that consistency

This season, the definition of UR, as in being given a <, has changed... now instead of a quarter turn/90 degrees or less on the landing being sufficient rotation, it has to now be less than a quarter turn. So we are seeing stricter technical calls, especially on Vincent's borderline jumps that were ratified in the previous system at high level competitions like the Olympics and Worlds. Vincent is aware that such an amount of landing rotation is no longer ratifiable as clean so he's said he is working to improve that. But before he was able to land these jumps cleanly under the definition of ISU ratifiable rotation (just not consistently so). Marin Honda is another example of a skater who had borderline < on some of her jumps and is now getting really nailed under the rule change.

 

[ice coverage]

… 6) The most sad moment/event - Max Aaron's retirement. I will really miss his skating and his gentle, kind personality. ...

Ohhhh, I miss Max so much, on ice and off ice. :sad4:

Because everyone forgot there are three spots lol. Thanks, Max (and Nathan, ofc).

Thank you, Max. For the three spots and for so much more.

BTW, in case anyone is wondering: During championship weekend of Nats, Max will be special guest coach at a skating camp in OKC. Although he cannot be a spectator in Detroit, I hope the men competing at Nats (and the audience) will think of him.

 

[el henry]

This season, the definition of UR, as in being given a <, has changed... now instead of a quarter turn/90 degrees or less on the landing being sufficient rotation, it has to now be less than a quarter turn. So we are seeing stricter technical calls, especially on Vincent's borderline jumps that were ratified in the previous system at high level competitions like the Olympics and Worlds. Vincent is aware that such an amount of landing rotation is no longer ratifiable as clean so he's said he is working to improve that. But before he was able to land these jumps cleanly under the definition of ISU ratifiable rotation (just not consistently so). Marin Honda is another example of a skater who had borderline < on some of her jumps and is now getting really nailed under the rule change.

You are right about the quarter turn “leeway”, and again I was too elliptical. I should not post after midnight.

 

[Mrs. P]

For what it's worth he's the solo 3A success rate according to our fine friends at SkatingScores.com

Nathan
27 attempts
27 rotated (100 percent; this is a pretty cool stat; for Nathan's struggles with the jump he for the most part does the rotations)
15 rotated + GOE (55.6 percent)
0 underrotations

Vincent
20 attempts
11 rotated (55 percent)
7 rotated + GOE (35 percent)
9 underrotations (45 percent)

Jason
32 attempts
25 rotated (78 percent)
16 rotated + GOE (50 percent)
7 underrotations (21 percent)

So as far as the 3A goes, none of them really have been historically superb at the jump.

YES, you can (and I know you will) argue that some of those calls were questionable either for or against, however, I'm merely pointing out at how these 3 have scored historically with the solo jump.

Looking at the solo 3A in the SP for all three -- Nathan has been 3 for 3 for +GOE, Jason is 3/4 with +GOE (he had 3A< -GOE at SCI) and Vincent is 2/4 with +GOE (he had 1A* at U.S. Classic and 3A< -GOE at Skate America).

For all the talk about quads, he 3A is still very much relevant especially in the age of +5/-5, it will be interesting to see how it comes to play come Nats.


ETA: It's worth taking a look at the junior international men who will be competing as seniors at Nats. As well as new senior Alexei Krasnozhon.

Alexei
19 attempts
18 rotated (94.7 percent)
13 rotated + GOE (68.4)
1 under rotated

Camden
12 attempts
12 rotated (100 percent; nice!)
9 rotated + GOE (75 percent)

Tomoki
15 attempts
12 rotated (80 percent)
3 rotated + GOE (20 percent)
3 under rotated (20 percent)

 

[karne]

Just at the last Worlds he had a clean SP with both quads ratified the way HE trained them. So clearly that meant his definition of rotation was a ratifiable one even if not consistently so. At the Olympics he had 3 different ratified quads in his FS. This was all within the last year. "Underotating under either definition"?! Nice try, gal.

Oh! Two occasions where they were "clean"...or where the tech panel was less nitpicky. Have you forgotten that in fact he was also called out for URs at both of his GP events, and even at the notoriously lax US Nationals, and then of course that FS at Worlds? He absolutely was underrotating under either definition. All within the last year!

She was every bit as anti-Nathan before he entered seniors, and he has always had very strong rotation relative to the field. Let's not blame technical panels.

Oh, forgive me for not wanting to crown an injury prone untried kid as king of the world before actually seeing a Senior season out of him. Evidently I should have been proclaiming him the greatest thing since sliced bread like the rest of you.

I think that posters who think only Vincent needs to change, not Jason, are definitely misguided. Both of them under-rotate. I would argue Jason's quads are significantly more under-rotated on average than Vincent's.

Karne definitely attacked Vincent's "terrible attitude", which is totally off base. I don't think or Vincent or Jason have a terrible attitude on URs, I just think both need to improve in this aspect, as well as improving their jump difficulty, which is always a good thing.

Jason and his team don't sit there fobbing his problems off as "definitions" and blaming tech panels for his URs. He accepts responsibility for his own problems. Just as Max accepted responsibility for his own poor skates. Just as Joshua did. None of them would have ever dared think of trying to whip up a tech panel conspiracy.

The issue I take with Vincent's answer is that it does not take responsibility. It wasn't a "yeah, I've got a UR problem and I'm working really hard on fixing it". It foisted blame off onto the "definitions" and the tech panel, just like Zakrasjek's rant after SkAm, couched in pretty words. It also doesn't say "I pride myself on having good technique and if I don't have it then I want it for the sake of having good technique". It says "I don't care about technique as long as I'm throwing whatever, and I still don't care but I'm losing points so I'll just make a sort of attempt at fixing it."

I mean, I just can't...I just can't imagine feeling my blade hook around on the ice knowing I was underrotated and being satisfied with something that was technically incorrect. I cannot imagine it at all. I go bonkers when my Lutz edge is !. I go bonkers feeling that hooky UR feeling. It's like fingernails down a blackboard. I just cannot imagine someone not only being satisfied with that, but making no move to correct it until they start losing points for it.

 

[bobbob]

Oh! Two occasions where they were "clean"...or where the tech panel was less nitpicky. Have you forgotten that in fact he was also called out for URs at both of his GP events, and even at the notoriously lax US Nationals, and then of course that FS at Worlds? He absolutely was underrotating under either definition. All within the last year!



Oh, forgive me for not wanting to crown an injury prone untried kid as king of the world before actually seeing a Senior season out of him. Evidently I should have been proclaiming him the greatest thing since sliced bread like the rest of you.



Jason and his team don't sit there fobbing his problems off as "definitions" and blaming tech panels for his URs. He accepts responsibility for his own problems. Just as Max accepted responsibility for his own poor skates. Just as Joshua did. None of them would have ever dared think of trying to whip up a tech panel conspiracy.

The issue I take with Vincent's answer is that it does not take responsibility. It wasn't a "yeah, I've got a UR problem and I'm working really hard on fixing it". It foisted blame off onto the "definitions" and the tech panel, just like Zakrasjek's rant after SkAm, couched in pretty words. It also doesn't say "I pride myself on having good technique and if I don't have it then I want it for the sake of having good technique". It says "I don't care about technique as long as I'm throwing whatever, and I still don't care but I'm losing points so I'll just make a sort of attempt at fixing it."

I mean, I just can't...I just can't imagine feeling my blade hook around on the ice knowing I was underrotated and being satisfied with something that was technically incorrect. I cannot imagine it at all. I go bonkers when my Lutz edge is !. I go bonkers feeling that hooky UR feeling. It's like fingernails down a blackboard. I just cannot imagine someone not only being satisfied with that, but making no move to correct it until they start losing points for it.

You are literally taking a few words Vincent said, and using that to attack him as a skater.

The single male skater who has gotten away with the most URs in the last five years, without question, is Jason Brown. One example, during the short program at Nationals last year, he had the most under-rotated uncalled triple axel I have ever seen (Vincent's was called, by the way). I never heard him taking responsibility for that triple axel being underrotated during the press conference. I remember many people were unhappy about that call, thinking it would cause another deserving skater to be left off the Olympic team. I can bring out at least another dozen example of Jason's 3A being UR but uncalled.

Even in his most recent free skate, Jason's hooky 3A technique is still there. Again, it was uncalled. Why isn't he taking responsibility. At least Vincent said he is trying to improve. I don't hear Jason even acknowledging URs, uncalled ones, or at least a hooky technique, are a problem. By your logic (not mine), he should be. He has had this since 2013, and he is still doing it.

I have no problem with a harsh tech panel. But they have to be fair. Jason's other aspects should not hide his URs. And regardless of whether they are called, he should be working on improving them. I have not seen any such improvement in 5 years. I will get on Vincent's case if he doesn't improve in 4 more years, though I suspect he won't need it.

 

[Mrs. P]

Everyone please submit change.org petitions for all the skaters you’re outraged by!!! Isu how dare you cause such chaos on the GS U.S. Men thread.

I’ll sign all the petitions cause I’m fair.



In all seriousness, there are 3 spots. There is room for both Vincent “now I have to redefine rotation” Zhou and Jason “I don’t take responsibility for the calls” Brown. Sure there has and can be an element of surprise at nationals but honestly the arguing over who is worse when both are scoring well above the rest of the field ... :think:

 

[lurkz2]

Everyone please submit change.org petitions for all the skaters you’re outraged by!!! Isu how dare you cause such chaos on the GS U.S. Men thread.

I’ll sign all the petitions cause I’m fair.



In all seriousness, there are 3 spots. There is room for both Vincent “now I have to redefine rotation” Zhou and Jason “I don’t take responsibility for the calls” Brown. Sure there has and can be an element of surprise at nationals but honestly the arguing over who is worse when both are scoring well above the rest of the field ... :think:

I'm just so happy this thread is active again, outrage be damned

 

[karne]

The single male skater who has gotten away with the most URs in the last five years, without question, is Jason Brown. One example, during the short program at Nationals last year, he had the most under-rotated uncalled triple axel I have ever seen (Vincent's was called, by the way). I never heard him taking responsibility for that triple axel being underrotated during the press conference. I remember many people were unhappy about that call, thinking it would cause another deserving skater to be left off the Olympic team. I can bring out at least another dozen example of Jason's 3A being UR but uncalled.

Oh I'm sorry, did I miss where Jason was asked about the 3A in the press conference? Did I miss where Kori went on a social media rant about how terrible people were to think it was UR and making arguments for why it wasn't?

Funny, y'all weren't complaining about the judging when Vincent was gifted 89 PCS in the FS. And of course, if you all want to start talking about unjust uncalled URs at Nationals...y'all know where I'm going with that.

I have no problem with a harsh tech panel. But they have to be fair. Jason's other aspects should not hide his URs. And regardless of whether they are called, he should be working on improving them. I have not seen any such improvement in 5 years. I will get on Vincent's case if he doesn't improve in 4 more years, though I suspect he won't need it.

You act like Jason has a UR problem on Vincent's scale. He doesn't. His jumps have also improved markedly over the last couple of years, unless of course you're desperately trying to see otherwise. And when Jason has had a technical problem, he's acknowledged it and worked hard to fix it, like his flutz.

 

[bobbob]

Oh I'm sorry, did I miss where Jason was asked about the 3A in the press conference? Did I miss where Kori went on a social media rant about how terrible people were to think it was UR and making arguments for why it wasn't?

Funny, y'all weren't complaining about the judging when Vincent was gifted 89 PCS in the FS. And of course, if you all want to start talking about unjust uncalled URs at Nationals...y'all know where I'm going with that.



You act like Jason has a UR problem on Vincent's scale. He doesn't. His jumps have also improved markedly over the last couple of years, unless of course you're desperately trying to see otherwise. And when Jason has had a technical problem, he's acknowledged it and worked hard to fix it, like his flutz.

Kori is not Jason, TomZ or TammyG are not Vincent. If the coach has a twitter rant that does not usually reflect on the skater.

There are other examples where Jason fails to "take ownership", e.g. when Jason "landed" a 4T< at Skate America one year, he was asked about it. He acted as if he had landed a quad, and made no mention of trying to fix the landing or improve his technique (which was deemed UR), which was clearly flawed as he hasn't landed one since, UR or not. And if you say Jason has fixed his technical problems, why does he still have that hook landing on his 3A? Why has he still not landed a quad? You really don't think Jason has a UR problem? I guarantee you Jason will UR his 4S at nationals, if he does it at all. He has a 100% under-rotation rate on that jump, as well as the 4T (over a number of attempts). Problems don't get any worse than that. Even Vincent's batting average is much higher...Jason's UR problems in terms of quads are not on the same scale as Vincent, correct, they are on a greater, much worse, scale in the sense that he is doing jumps he has zero chance of rotating (at least Vincent *can* do them), yet still putting them in his program.

Again we are talking about URs not PCS, how is PCS relevant to this discussion? Sure, I can talk about unjustly non called URs at Nationals. Many involve Jason. Vincent was actually called quite thoroughly last year.


Again this is your logic, not mine. I don't expect either Jason or Vincent to act very vulnerable or "own up" to their URs or poor technique to press, actually, I don't think that is a good idea. I am just illustrating these examples because if you see that your logic does not only apply to Vincent, and applies to someone you would never attack (Jason), maybe you would stop personal attacks on Vincent.

 

[Tavi...]

You know I’m thrilled this thread is active again, but I don’t see the point in arguing about who has the worst under rotations or who gets gifted with favorable calls / wrongly dinged with unfavorable ones or who is taking more or less ownership of their skating. Really, what’s the point? Both Jason and Vincent have committed to improving their technique. We’ll see results soon. Can we leave it at that for now?

Since we don’t have them in this thread yet, here are tweets from Nathan’s and Jason’s media telecoms:

Nathan:

- working with Raf, focusing on clean programs and adding back 4Z in FS. Going back to Yale before Nats. Both Nats & 4CC conflict with school.

https://twitter.com/lynnrutherford/status/1083150709376385024?s=21
https://twitter.com/fsonline/status/1083148711314767872?s=21

Jason:

- he’s healthy, training well, new technique starting to click - France was turning point, plans 4S in FS at Nats, also working 4T. Tracy will be at Nats with him.

https://twitter.com/lynnrutherford/status/1083143534096666625?s=21
https://twitter.com/lynnrutherford/status/1083145008390303751?s=21
https://twitter.com/lynnrutherford/status/1083145846697402368?s=21
https://twitter.com/fsonline/status/1083142090203299841?s=21
https://twitter.com/fsonline/status/1083142315286429697?s=21

IFS did an article but haven’t read it yet :

https://twitter.com/ifsmagazine/status/1083248483606425600?s=21
https://www.ifsmagazine.com/jason-brown-hard-work-paying-off/

That’s all I could find. Anyone find anything else? Thoughts?

All I can say is, it’s tough that Nathan has to go back to Yale before Nats but hopefully his time eith Raf will carry over. With Jason, Im curious as to his success rate in practice with 4S. He is emphasizing focus on getting the technique & the 18-month timeline, so it sounds to me like it’s still a work in progress.

 

[ice coverage]

Photos from Broadmoor Skating Club's send-off dinner for Nats:

Camden, Emmanuel, Andrew
https://www.facebook.com/183308679547/photos/pcb.10157133364089548/10157133361369548/?type=3&theater

Alex Wellman
https://www.facebook.com/183308679547/photos/pcb.10157133364089548/10157133361564548/?type=3&theater

Big group photo of skaters from all disciplines
https://www.facebook.com/183308679547/photos/pcb.10157133364089548/10157133361284548/?type=3&theater​

It had escaped me earlier that Andrew now will be representing BSC.

(Individual skaters posted other photos on Instagram.)

---

… It seems like the fed is also sending some skaters to the Winter Universiade. Does anyone know their criteria for selection?

I think your question is about USFS selection criteria for Universiade, for which I have no answer.

Anyway, some requirements from the Announcement for Universiade:

Eligibility
Participation in the Figure Skating Competition at the 29th Winter Universiade 2019 Krasnoyarsk, Russia must fulfil the following FISU requirements (cf. WU2019 Regulations Art 5.2.1 and Art 5.2.2):
a) students who are currently officially registered as proceeding towards a degree or diploma at the university or similar institute, the status of which is recognized by the appropriate national academic authority of their country;
b) former students of the institutions mentioned in a) who have obtained their academic degree or diploma in the year preceding the event;

Age Restrictions (Art. 5.2.4):
a) be a national of the country they represent (with exception in Pair Skating and Ice Dance events – c.f. WU2019 Figure Skating Sports Regulations);
b) be at least 18 and no older than 25 years of age on 31st December of the year of the event (WU 2019: the athletes must be born between 1 January 1994 and 31 December 2001). ​

Maximum of three men per country. Dates overlap with Junior Worlds.

---

Everyone please submit change.org petitions for all the skaters you’re outraged by!!! Isu how dare you cause such chaos on the GS U.S. Men thread.

I’ll sign all the petitions cause I’m fair.



In all seriousness, there are 3 spots. There is room for both Vincent “now I have to redefine rotation” Zhou and Jason “I don’t take responsibility for the calls” Brown. Sure there has and can be an element of surprise at nationals but honestly the arguing over who is worse when both are scoring well above the rest of the field ... :think:

:agree:

(I already am dreading the pre-WTT discussion over two spots. :sad4: :giveup

 

[lurkz2]

(I already am dreading the pre-WTT discussion over two spots. :sad4: :giveup

Why, does the sched for WTT coincide with a Yale break?

 

[oatmella]

Nathan would have to miss school to go to WTT.

 

[el henry]

Why, does the sched for WTT coincide with a Yale break?

Good point; can someone compare the two for us?

Although I do think WTT is a good payday, and Nathan may understandably consider that in making his decision. Nathan doesn’t need 4CC and I don’t expect to see him there.

ETA: Oatmella posted while I was typing; thanks!