FFKKR proposes to allow quadruple jumps in the short program for women

[jenm]

All for it. Eventually.
but at the moment, they should focus on balancing tech and pcs and giving importance to other non-jump elements also. because as it is, it's becoming a jumping on ice competition when actual skating is hard too.
not a lot can jump 3As and quads, but also, not a lot has great skating skills, presentation, spins, etc.

 

[Mathman]

Short programs were designed to compare apples to apples and to ensure that all skaters could demonstrate certain specific skills that everyone at that level should be able to do. Short programs by design have never been about pushing envelopes.

I think that is why short programs are better than long programs. Short programs are about the quality of the jumps and other elements, while long programs are about the quantity. Some fans say, "more jumps, more jumps, more jumps." But to me, it ought to be, "better jumps, better jumps, better jumps." A recent example would be Han Yan's short program at Cup of China.

Plus, short programs provide a better format for incorporating the technical elements into a choreographic and thematic whole.

Nothing wrong with pushing the envelope, of course. That's what the long program is for. (And it's worth twice as many points. ) I think if I were a lady who had both a triple Axel and a quad I would be tempted, in the short program, to do 3A+3T, 3F, and 4Lz. I would get 0 points for the 4Lz, sacrificing 3.3 points (I didn't do the required double Axel). But my performance would so dispirit all the other ladies that they would just give up and concede the long program. (My music would be, "U can't touch this!" by MC Hammer.)

 

[DSQ]

Fair enough imo. Though if I had my way quads would be banned in the SP for men as well. I quite like watching junior worlds.

 

[cohen-esque]

Like gkelly said, in theory she could But to be fair a lady never did 3A out of multiple steps (maybe Alyona and Rika can be counted as close to that)

Mao Asada in her early career was doing the 3A from a similarly or even more difficult entrance (rocker+rocker, I think) than Alyona, Rika, and Alysa are doing today (rocker+counter), and all of their entries would definitely have been sufficient for the old “jump from steps” requirement. Mao’s problem in 2010 was that her bad technique had caught up with her and she was no longer capable of that entry, nor of a rotated 3+3, so she had to “settle” for a 3A+2T because it was worth more than the 3F/3Lo+2Lo she’d have been doing otherwise.

I don’t know that the 3A rule is directly comparable to allowing quads in general, just because the Axel requirement is for one specific pass and type of jump. It allows replacing one double with a triple— the effectively comparable rule change for the short program would be to allow the quad either in the combination, or as a solo jump, both not to allow both. There is still a (much-diminished) comparative aspect to the Ladies’ SP that they miiiiiiiiight not want to completely demolish all at once, but I really doubt they care, and I expect them to just raise the limits to match the Men’s in one go.

Personally I wish that for the short program the ISU would just remove jump restrictions except for the repetition and Axel inclusion rules, add one more jump, spin, and choreo sequence, tack on thirty extra seconds, and then make that the sole segment of the competition. It won’t happen, but I can dream.

 

[lariko]

And a solo layback with no change of foot is allowed in the ladies' SP but not allowed to the men. Or now, for that matter, a camel or sitspin with no change of foot.

If there's a man out there who can do a beautiful level 4 layback into Biellmann, he can save it for his freeskate, but it won't do him any good in the short program, aside from whichever of those positions/features he can work into his combination spin.

So, if I understand that correctly, a man can still use the spin in a combo in the SP, but a lady still can’t use a quad in a combo in the SP?

While 3A is a triple jump, and is allowed to both men and ladies, should quad Axel come to pass, men will be able to add it to the SP, despite it not counting as a necessary axel element, while the ladies wouldn’t.

It feels inherently unfair, and I hope it’ll be rectified based on the Russian proposal to allow the ladies to train to their strength and present the program layouts that benefit their unique physic and abilities, just like men can do that.

Honestly, let men do spins as well, why not? There is Grassl.

From the safety standpoint, imo, it’s better if they have a choice to train jumps that is more successful vs pushing for the one they struggle with in order to have a shot at the podium.

 

[flanker]

Maybe in retaliation the isu should look into Eteri,s group methods, I am a believer in Korpi,s statement, before long these young girls will have detrimental affects on there bodies, what’s next from there group a five rotation, this Is not skating...

Ps I would rather watch or Katarina Witt, Michelle Kwan, Carolina Kostner, kaetlyn osmond, Kiira korpi, Laura lepisto, fleur maxwell, Satoko Miyahara, mao asada on the ice,

The women’s senior age should be raised to 21,

So, in fact you admit Kiira's comments were aimed at Eteri's group, not generally, as we were persuaded by Kiira's apologets (incl. Kiira herself)?
BTW all the ladies you've mentioned did not start medalling after 18/21/25 as was already pointed out many times before.

 

[flanker]

Yes, at the time the rule was passed Mao was the only one attempting it, which made a rule change that clearly advantaged one skater a bit surprising but also opened up the option to others if they could take advantage of it.

But it's not as if she was the only example of whether it was possible.

Midori Ito had proved that back in 1989. You also had Tonya Harding, Ludmila Nelidina, and Yukari Nakano (including just a year or two before the rule change) who had landed rotated or underrotated 3A one foot in ISU competition, and others such as Angela Derochie, Yoshie Onda, and Mai Asada who had attempted them with less success. ISU officials had probably also heard about Kimmie Meissner's effort at US Nationals and seen attempts by various others in public practices at ISU championships.



Yes, and not only jumps. Let skaters who can do really amazing envelope-pushing non-jump skills get credit for them and use more of them if that's where their strengths lie.

Which would require making the free program freer and more flexible, allowing for different strategies for racking up points but also retaining some limits (time limits and total number of scoring elements under IJS) or requirements to encourage some degree of balance even if not everyone has to do the exact same number of each type of element.

But maybe the original concept of the short program with its required elements would no longer be relevant at all in that case. Replace it with something else that makes more sense in the current era.

Well, backoading all of the jumps was one of the strategies that allowed skaters an attitude different from other ones. And they've implemented Zagitova Rule.

 

[lariko]

Rising the age to 21 will mean a higher degree of attrition rate, simply because the parents will end up charged with supporting the grown up athletes before they have access to the earning potential of the adult championship pool.

It will also mean that 13 yo’s will be forced to compete with 20 yo’s in the juniors, which will lead to more senior ladies sitting in the low placements in junior for a few years before being advanced into seniors, while the gentlemen will look at lower chances to medal for the first four-five years in juniors.

Not to mention that starting senior competition period at 21 will make a gap between college and entering the workforce, potentially breaking lives, and will increase the chance of serious injuries. The ladies will have to contend with one of the hardest metabolic/hormonal period of the early twenties, potentially leading to absolute horrid eating issues trying to keep in a competitive shape.

Twenty-one is also not related to growth, coming 2 to 4 years after the growth had completed for gentlemen and ladies comparatively.

 

[flanker]

Allowing quads in the SP leads towards the further unisexification of figure skating which I oppose. A process that began with getting rid of spiral sequences.

In what way? All the ladies who are doing quads in this moment are feminine in the most classical meaning of the word. I oppose to your opposition.

 

[Mishaminion]

In what way? All the ladies who are doing quads in this moment are feminine in the most classical meaning of the word. I oppose to your opposition.

One of those it is "unladylike" arguments I think

 

[nussnacker]

One of those it is "unladylike" arguments I think

It’s quite tiring to see that so many people attach “what women should be like” demands even when it comes to sports. I hope one day, all those wonderful girls and women can be free from any prejudices, just allowed to be themselves, whether it’s perceived “feminine” or not by other people.
Women can be different.

 

[NaVi]

In what way? All the ladies who are doing quads in this moment are feminine in the most classical meaning of the word.

So are some of the men... all I'm saying is that I think differentiation between the men's and ladies event is good.

 

[kwanatic]

I feel like the only way the quad in the SP would be fair for the field is if the age limit is raised. 21 years old seems a bit too old to me; but 17 or 18 years old seems fair. Most girls have hit puberty by then so the tiny body/low weight advantage is likely gone.

If you have made it to that older age and are still capable of hitting a quad, by all means, go for it in the SP. I also think it should only apply to the solo jump. The combo can be 3-3/3-2, a 2A or 3A, and any triple or quad jump for the solo jump. That seems totally fair.

I'm pretty sure quads being added to the SP is inevitable, maybe at the start of the next quad (2022-2023). What will be telling is how this crop of quad babies fares. The jury is still out on that...they are the first generation of quadsters. If Trusova, Shcherbakova, Liu, etc. are still doing quads 3 years from now, that will be proof that it's a sustainable jump beyond a pre-pubescent stage.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[flanker]

So are some of the men... all I'm saying is that I think differentiation between the men's and ladies event is good.

I'm not saying it isn't, but if you suggest that "some men skaters are (probably) feminine", it is not the contradictory to the claim that ladies who are able to do quads now are very feminine and it in no way brings arguments against allowing ladies to do quad(s) in the short program.

By the way, Tarasova is for quads in SP:
https://fs-gossips.com/tatiana-tara...m-allowing-quads-in-the-ladies-short-program/

 

[flanker]

I feel like the only way the quad in the SP would be fair for the field is if the age limit is raised. 21 years old seems a bit too old to me; but 17 or 18 years old seems fair. Most girls have hit puberty by then so the tiny body/low weight advantage is likely gone.

If you have made it to that older age and are still capable of hitting a quad, by all means, go for it in the SP. I also think it should only apply to the solo jump. The combo can be 3-3/3-2, a 2A or 3A, and any triple or quad jump for the solo jump. That seems totally fair.

I'm pretty sure quads being added to the SP is inevitable, maybe at the start of the next quad (2022-2023). What will be telling is how this crop of quad babies fares. The jury is still out on that...they are the first generation of quadsters. If Trusova, Shcherbakova, Liu, etc. are still doing quads 3 years from now, that will be proof that it's a sustainable jump beyond a pre-pubescent stage.

Just my 2 cents...

What about pairs and ice dancers? Should that be applied to them as well? Should be Pavliuchenko/Khodykin still in juniors?

 

[el henry]

So, in fact you admit Kiira's comments were aimed at Eteri's group, not generally, as we were persuaded by Kiira's apologets (incl. Kiira herself)?
BTW all the ladies you've mentioned did not start medalling after 18/21/25 as was already pointed out many times before.

I don’t remember Russell30 in the thread about Kiira’s remarks, so I don’t believe he needs to “admit” anything?

And if course those of us who were in that thread supporting Kiira and her remarks in the interview “admit” no such thing. I Each poster speaks only for themselves. I invite you to come back to the thread if you would like to discuss more.

 

[flanker]

I don’t remember Russell30 in the thread about Kiira’s remarks, so I don’t believe he needs to “admit” anything?

And if course those of us who were in that thread supporting Kiira and her remarks in the interview “admit” no such thing. I Each poster speaks only for themselves. I invite you to come back to the thread if you would like to discuss more.

So, a person, other than me, brings Kiira here in the different thread, finding very loose connection between what she has said and the topic of this thread, but I am the one who is invited back to the thread? No, thanks, it's not that I'm expecting starting to talk about that here, but when the suggestion was brought here, the answer should be put here as well. After all, I didn't see anything significant in that thread since my last commetnt there that would put it in some new light. What was said was said.

 

[gkelly]

I don’t know that the 3A rule is directly comparable to allowing quads in general, just because the Axel requirement is for one specific pass and type of jump. It allows replacing one double with a triple— the effectively comparable rule change for the short program would be to allow the quad either in the combination, or as a solo jump, both not to allow both. There is still a (much-diminished) comparative aspect to the Ladies’ SP that they miiiiiiiiight not want to completely demolish all at once, but I really doubt they care, and I expect them to just raise the limits to match the Men’s in one go.

As, indeed, the men's rules were not changed from no quads to two quads all in one go either.

In 1998-99, men were finally allowed to do one quad in the short program as the jump out of steps. (Few who tried actually included many steps.) The same year the solo axel was finally allowed to be either triple or double.

Then a couple years later (2000-01?) men were still allowed to do only one quad in the SP but they now had the option of doing it either as the solo jump or as one jump in the combination.

It was about a decade before it was allowed to include two quads, one in each of those elements.

 

[Mathman]

So are some of the men... all I'm saying is that I think differentiation between the men's and ladies event is good.

In gymnastics, women (having strong glutes and thighs) do the leg apparatuses. Men (having strong upper bodies) do the rings and pommel horse.

There is some crossover. Men are not derided as lacking in masculinity for doing the floor or vault. I don't know if this has any relevance to figure skating, but that is the tradition in our sister sport. I mean, brother sport.

Maybe we could say that a quad jump is a "leg event," so it belongs on the ladies side of the ledger.

 

[Mathman]

Well, backoading all of the jumps was one of the strategies that allowed skaters an attitude different from other ones. And they've implemented Zagitova Rule.

I think this highlights one of the big problems with the IJS. Every year the ISU comes out with a tiny tweak of the rules. Let's encourage a broader distribution of highlight elements by awarding a bonus to jumps in the second half. Sounds like a good idea, right?

But the skaters and coaching teams are always a step ahead. Backload everything! Then the next year the ISU has to intervene again and say, no, no, no, that's not what we meant. Just backload half of your jumps so the program isn't so front-heavy like they used to be before the bonus rule.

It is the same with, say Bielmann positions or hands-over-the-head. Very cool. Give the skater an extra feature.

But then the skaters outsmart the ISU again by putting in a Bielmann or hand-over-the-head on every element. The ISU is forced to react. This creates the impression that the ISU is just lurching back and forth between, "do this"; "no, stop doing it so much."