FFKKR proposes to allow quadruple jumps in the short program for women

[surimi]

Why not. I never understood why they were not allowed in the first place.

 

[Mishaminion]

To me, though, that is not really the question. Yes, Trusova's skating has many sterling qualities.

But the crises is not in evaluating Trusova, it lies with the scoring system.

In the LP at Skate Canada, Trusova scored 72.30 in jump base value. She scored 16.10 in base value for all other elements combined.

She got 8.5s in Program Components, and good for her! But she would have won just the same if she had gotten 7.5s. If she had gotten 6.5s she still would have won the LP, even falling on her opening jump. It's not that Alexandra Trusova is "just a jumping bean," it is that the ISU scoring system has become lop-sidedly jumping beany.

I don't think it has, no more so than it was under the 6.0 system.
90% of the time the skater with the most difficult (mostly landed) jumps won.

Tara Lipinski vs Michelle Kwan at 98 Olympics is one example. Both did 7 Triples, Tara had her 3L-3L and another big triple combo. Michelle had no 3-3
Tara won

 

[Mathman]

With respect to scoring balance, I think that there is another area of concern, too. The Zayak rules were put into place so that skaters could not rack up the points by doing the same thing over and over, but rather would have to do many different thing. At Cup of China, Anna Shcherbakova did Lutzes in 4 of her 7 jumping passes. Her Lutz elements brought her 43.27 points in base vakue. All of her other elements, including all of her other jumping passes were worth 33.71.

True, Anna did some other cool things like her flip-euler-Salchow combo and incorporating the 3Lo. Still, it might be an improvement in the IJS (for both men and ladies) if quads and triples were grouped together as the same type of jump. This would be consistent with the proposal for the ladies short program: change the rule for the combo and the solo jump from "triples" to "quads or triples."

(By the way, looking at the protocols, I see that Anna got net positive GOE on her Lutzes despite all the "unclear edge" calls. It doesn't look like these adverse calls hirt her score by more than a couple of points.)

 

[Mathman]

Still don't understand why people are ignoring men cathegory. Quads celebrated some 3 years anniversary recently and I don't think it lead to the devalaulation of spins or step sequences.

That is, the 30th year anniversary. 1988 was a very good year. First quad for men, first triple Axel for ladies. The next year Midori Ito became the first woman to do all 6 triples in a program. Nowadays it would be worth more points to do 2 quad Lutzes, and 2 triple Axels and forget the rest.

This thread is about ladies, but I agree about good for the goose, good for the gander. Nathan Chen can win any competition just by doing 5 quads (unless Yuzuru Hanyu also does 5). To me, the scoring system is out of balance regardless of how wonderful a skater's footwork or spins may be.

 

[flanker]

With respect to scoring balance, I think that there is another area of concern, too. The Zayak rules were put into place so that skaters could not rack up the points by doing the same thing over and over, but rather would have to do many different thing. At Cup of China, Anna Shcherbakova did Lutzes in 4 of her 7 jumping passes. Her Lutz elements brought her 43.27 points in base vakue. All of her other elements, including all of her other jumping passes were worth 33.71.

True, Anna did some other cool things like her flip-euler-Salchow combo and incorporating the 3Lo. Still, it might be an improvement in the IJS (for both men and ladies) if quads and triples were grouped together as the same type of jump. This would be consistent with the proposal for the ladies short program: change the rule for the combo and the solo jump from "triples" to "quads or triples."

(By the way, looking at the protocols, I see that Anna got net positive GOE on her Lutzes despite all the "unclear edge" calls. It doesn't look like these adverse calls hirt her score by more than a couple of points.)

Because quad in just longer triple

After her skate Anna had 95 points in the score box. The final TES was 84. I don't consider 11 points to be "just a couple". BTW it is curious that during her skate Anna received some +3/+4 for her jumps, and then in the protocol there are -2, -1 etc. By the same judges who originally liked her performance. According to rules "!" call should reduce the GOE for -1 to -3, and somehow nearly everybody decided to choose the worst case possible. For the same jumps that were rewarded high just a couple of minutes before. Again, according to the rules positive and negative aspects should be applied at once, but it seems the positive aspects were completely abandoned.

 

[Mathman]

I don't think it has, no more so than it was under the 6.0 system.
90% of the time the skater with the most difficult (mostly landed) jumps won.

Well, just because it's old doesn't mean it's right. If the scoring system can be improved, why not improve it?

Tara Lipinski vs Michelle Kwan at 98 Olympics is one example. Both did 7 Triples, Tara had her 3L-3L and another big triple combo. Michelle had no 3-3.
Tara won.

You are making my point. Michelle was the superior skater and should have won. :yes:

 

[flanker]

That is, the 30th year anniversary. 1988 was a very good year. First quad for men, first triple Axel for ladies. The next year Midori Ito became the first woman to do all 6 triples in a program. Nowadays it would be worth more points to do 2 quad Lutzes, and 2 triple Axels and forget the rest.

This thread is about ladies, but I agree about good for the goose, good for the gander. Nathan Chen can win any competition just by doing 5 quads (unless Yuzuru Hanyu also does 5). To me, the scoring system is out of balance regardless of how wonderful a skater's footwork or spins may be.

It was meant to be 30, shame on me. Though, in fact the first quad was landed in 1986 by JOzef Sabovčík (though later the recognition was dismissed by the ISU).

 

[Mishaminion]

Well, just because it's old doesn't mean it's right. If the scoring system can be improved, why not improve it?



You are making my point. Michelle was the superior skater and should have won. :yes:

I preferred Michelle too, but it does prove my point that the jumps have been weighed more for a long time