FFKKR appealed to ISU over inconsistency in judging at the GP stages

[Sam-Skwantch]

But those are big “ifs” and an assumption that there was “poor” judging? I certainly don’t believe that there has been “poor judging” in the past GPs, so I am accepting nothing. So truly, with no consensus, how do we decide?

Outraged fans?
Aggrieved feds?
Coaches?
Goldenskate?

I was responding to this ...

The judges and tech panel use their eyes to judge just like we do, sometimes they miss things, other times they might even get things wrong.

...and my perceived impression was that this poster (as have others) was suggesting that we should just get over it because that’s just how things are. In this instance it’s not about what we believe or what motives may underpin the discussion but simply addressing the point brought forth...”other times they might even get things wrong”.

 

[[email protected]]

PMFJ, but who gets to decide that the tech panel got it wrong? Is there footage from the panel's cameras? Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe I've heard that what they see is different from what audience see in slow mo. And I am not 100% sure but I believe I have heard a tech specialist who also does commenting, say that their shots are actually worse than some of the shots the TV viewers get, plus they have very little time to review them.

This whole thing then becomes just impossible for any reasonable discussion. On the one hand there were arguments that those tech people are "specially ISU trained". They are so good that in real time they can professionally set the StSq level with dozens of various criteria. On the other hand, they cannot make the simplest assessment whether the jump was rotated or not even with a slo-mo footage.

I never compain about edges or URs as long as they do not affect the placements. There has been a massive outcry about Zhenya's uncalled lutz edge during 2016-17. So what? She was so much better than every one else anyway and she did just 1 lutz in 2 programs that even "e" calls would change nothing.

The so called "Russian whining" which I am a part of has started when these inconsistent calls started to affect placements. And I have no idea why those calls are made - these guys just cannot be that bad to make such mistakes. This gives the basis for "conspiracy theories". Once again, those trained tech guys saw enough mistakes in Sasha's steps that looked identical to me to her previous level 4 steps that without thinking they gave her level 2.

How could they do the following? CoC. Both Sofia and Satoko skate in the final group. The opening combos are 3F-3T and 3Lz-3T. I won't go into the overall discussion about them - I watched them more than once and I believe that Sofia's combo was overall of much better quality. Just the landing.

That's their final positions after 3T:

Sofia: https://imgur.com/a/SSVYs6G
Satoko: https://imgur.com/a/ceSdGqe

We won't argue about degrees: both finished the jump more or less parallel to the boards

And that's the moment when the skate touched the ice. Look, even the positions of legs are identical.

Sofia: https://imgur.com/a/c3GAjPS
Satoko: https://imgur.com/a/uOFaPuO

We won't argue about degrees and percents. Sofia's back faces the boards - Satoko's does not. I don't know how I can argue with people who would say: "these pictures prove nothing". For me it's absolutely obvious that Satoko's UR was worse than Sofia's. Satoko received 11.53 for the combo - Sofia 8.43 The final difference between Satoko and Liza was 2.08 What would it be if this obvious UR was called? Who would get the silver? And one more time, how could the trained tech team disregard almost 180 degree UR?

 

[Mishaminion]

What placements have any of these seriously affected? Not the podium ones that's for sure

- - - Updated - - -

I was responding to this ...



...and my perceived impression was that this poster (as have others) was suggesting that we should just get over it because that’s just how things are. In this instance it’s not about what we believe or what motives may underpin the discussion but simply addressing the point brought forth...”other times they might even get things wrong”.

Not what I was suggesting as I explained.

 

[Mishaminion]

This whole thing then becomes just impossible for any reasonable discussion. On the one hand there were arguments that those tech people are "specially ISU trained". They are so good that in real time they can professionally set the StSq level with dozens of various criteria. On the other hand, they cannot make the simplest assessment whether the jump was rotated or not even with a slo-mo footage.

I never compain about edges or URs as long as they do not affect the placements. There has been a massive outcry about Zhenya's uncalled lutz edge during 2016-17. So what? She was so much better than every one else anyway and she did just 1 lutz in 2 programs that even "e" calls would change nothing.

The so called "Russian whining" which I am a part of has started when these inconsistent calls started to affect placements. And I have no idea why those calls are made - these guys just cannot be that bad to make such mistakes. This gives the basis for "conspiracy theories". Once again, those trained tech guys saw enough mistakes in Sasha's steps that looked identical to me to her previous level 4 steps that without thinking they gave her level 2.

How could they do the following? CoC. Both Sofia and Satoko skate in the final group. The opening combos are 3F-3T and 3Lz-3T. I won't go into the overall discussion about them - I watched them more than once and I believe that Sofia's combo was overall of much better quality. Just the landing.

That's their final positions after 3T:

Sofia: https://imgur.com/a/SSVYs6G
Satoko: https://imgur.com/a/ceSdGqe

We won't argue about degrees: both finished the jump more or less parallel to the boards

And that's the moment when the skate touched the ice. Look, even the position of legs are identical.

Sofia: https://imgur.com/a/c3GAjPS
Satoko: https://imgur.com/a/uOFaPuO

We won't argue about degrees and percents. Sofia's back faces the boards - Satoko's does not. I don't know how I can argue with people who would say: "these pictures prove nothing". For me it's absolutely obvious that Satoko's UR was worse than Sofia's. Satoko received 11.53 for the combo - Sofia 8.43 The final difference between Satoko and Liza was 2.08 What would it be if this obvious UR was called? Who would get the silver? And one more time, how could the trained tech team disregard almost 180 degree UR?

I do not agree with your images as it is hard to tell that they have touched the ice at all. I'd argue that Satoko's blade had not yet touched the ice on that photo.

I think they were both lucky to not get more URs than they did. Sofia is really struggling this season, her jumps were already low but because of puberty she's getting even less lift.
Satoko rotates fast and I've been fooled by some of her jumps in real time too, thinking they were clean when further analysis proves otherwise.
I do not think that combo was reviewed, I thought it looked okay in real time too.

Liza messed up her SP, you can't blame the judges or tech panel for that.
In fact 65 was pretty generous. She lost near enough 10 points on a 3A fall deduction, the automatic-5 in GOE and further points and higher GOE on only a 3-2 combo. Plus any possible PCS loss for the messy program.
So that is like saying had she been clean with a 3-3, 76+ points, a score she's not been anywhere close to for a long time... apart from the 80 at WTT, which is an event notorious for overscoring everyone. Bradie got over 150 in the FS there.

Then I've also seen arguments one of Liza's 3As was UR and wasn't called... I'm not sure about that...The one in combo could very much have been

 

[Mathman]

In fact there is a clear disparity between judges and TP. Judges represent countries. ... The tech panel are "ISU gods" beyond any control. This has to change.

This is an interesting twist. For the 15 years that the IJS has been in operation the one thing that the great majority of observers agreed on was this.

The judges are bad and need to be kept under control. Well, they are not exactly bad, but their primary allegiance is to their own national federation and its skaters.

The old 6.0 model was this. Each federation would send its team to the competition. The team would consist of skaters, coaches, federation officials and judges. These representatives would work together to secure the highest possible placements for their country.

The solution? Have some super-judges (the technical panel) which was not beholden to any national federation. They would be appointed directly by the ISU and would have no hidden motives or agenda except to guarantee fairness and transparency for the common good, transcending national bias.

That pipe dream seems to have been turned on its head. Now it is the federations that call out the tech panels instead of the other way around. Evidently what goes around, comes around.

 

[[email protected]]

I do not agree with your images as it is hard to tell that they have touched the ice at all. I'd argue that Satoko's blade had not yet touched the ice on that photo.

Did not touch the ice? That was a good try. OK, the next frame. Did it now? Does it change anything in terms of how eggregious her UR was which the TP ignored completely? Although they could not be ignorant about that: they gave her UR for the same combo just a day ago.

 

[Mishaminion]

Did not touch the ice? That was a good try. OK, the next frame. Did it now? Does it change anything in terms of how eggregious her UR was which the TP ignored completely? Although they could not be ignorant about that: they gave her UR for the same combo just a day ago.
View attachment 977

Maybe you should have used that one instead if it more clear?

I tend not to put much trust in these still photographs, especially ones that cut off the skaters upper body and make it impossible to orientate where their blade is in relation to everything else.

What is with the obsession with Miyahara anyway, you're damn lucky to have a panel strict enough to call any of her jumps UR...as she's a skater who used to have them all routinely ignored. I used to get so frustrated she got a pass on every single one! That she's getting nailed at all is some progress.

Your implication is clearly that not calling her 3T as UR prevented Liza from winning silver and you seem hell bent on proving it.

Unfortunately it just isn't true. Liza made very costly mistakes, and has weak SS, spins and PCS in general compared to Satoko. Satoko won silver on the strength of everything apart from jumps being superior and being "clean" apart from her URs, no stumbles, no falls.

 

[artika]

This whole thing then becomes just impossible for any reasonable discussion. On the one hand there were arguments that those tech people are "specially ISU trained". They are so good that in real time they can professionally set the StSq level with dozens of various criteria. On the other hand, they cannot make the simplest assessment whether the jump was rotated or not even with a slo-mo footage.

I never compain about edges or URs as long as they do not affect the placements. There has been a massive outcry about Zhenya's uncalled lutz edge during 2016-17. So what? She was so much better than every one else anyway and she did just 1 lutz in 2 programs that even "e" calls would change nothing.

The so called "Russian whining" which I am a part of has started when these inconsistent calls started to affect placements. And I have no idea why those calls are made - these guys just cannot be that bad to make such mistakes. This gives the basis for "conspiracy theories". Once again, those trained tech guys saw enough mistakes in Sasha's steps that looked identical to me to her previous level 4 steps that without thinking they gave her level 2.

How could they do the following? CoC. Both Sofia and Satoko skate in the final group. The opening combos are 3F-3T and 3Lz-3T. I won't go into the overall discussion about them - I watched them more than once and I believe that Sofia's combo was overall of much better quality. Just the landing.

That's their final positions after 3T:

Sofia: https://imgur.com/a/SSVYs6G
Satoko: https://imgur.com/a/ceSdGqe

We won't argue about degrees: both finished the jump more or less parallel to the boards

And that's the moment when the skate touched the ice. Look, even the positions of legs are identical.

Sofia: https://imgur.com/a/c3GAjPS
Satoko: https://imgur.com/a/uOFaPuO

We won't argue about degrees and percents. Sofia's back faces the boards - Satoko's does not. I don't know how I can argue with people who would say: "these pictures prove nothing". For me it's absolutely obvious that Satoko's UR was worse than Sofia's. Satoko received 11.53 for the combo - Sofia 8.43 The final difference between Satoko and Liza was 2.08 What would it be if this obvious UR was called? Who would get the silver? And one more time, how could the trained tech team disregard almost 180 degree UR?

As I know, the rotation is calculated from the direction of the blade as it leaves the ice before the jump, to when it touches the ice at the landing. While a "hooked" landing is a red flag for under rotation it is not always so, in Satoko case looked to me she did a "pull" as a music accent while she landed and that created the hook. I cannot slow down what video I have enough to really see the direction of the blade, but as I see the direction her body left the ice and landed, the whole combo seemed to be on an arch of 90 degrees and that wouldn't be under rotated. Also the touching on ice after the landing should have "weight" to it, as some skaters, as Satoko, skate with pointed toes they may reach the ice but not actually have weight on it.

 

[Mishaminion]

Satoko's 3T looked clean to me in real time but under on slow-mo review.

I had a debate last year with a friend who thought Satoko had mostly solved her UR problem, I argued she really hadn't but seems to be "good at hiding it"
Sounds silly but it's sort of true, she can't fix it so she tries to lessen the chance of them getting reviewed.

 

[NymphyNymphy]

Wait why is does Zhulin want to ban asian skaters? And how is that ethical morally?

 

[[email protected]]

As I know, the rotation is calculated from the direction of the blade as it leaves the ice before the jump, to when it touches the ice at the landing. While a "hooked" landing is a red flag for under rotation it is not always so, in Satoko case looked to me she did a "pull" as a music accent while she landed and that created the hook. I cannot slow down what video I have enough to really see the direction of the blade, but as I see the direction her body left the ice and landed, the whole combo seemed to be on an arch of 90 degrees and that wouldn't be under rotated. Also the touching on ice after the landing should have "weight" to it, as some skaters, as Satoko, skate with pointed toes they may reach the ice but not actually have weight on it.

My second picture shows that not only the toe but the part of the blade is already on the ice and it is still no less than 150 degrees UR. Satoko's footage that we have in the video thread is just perfect. If you make it at 0.25 you will see it all yourself. May be you will see something different, though.

I saw that Satoko just did 2 full rotations in the air on lutz and even less on toeloop. I would not dare to talk about downgrades but even 3Lz<-3T< would give her below 8 points, of course nothing like 11.43

As for Sofia, the footage is worse. But I would argue that she had less prerotation and less underrotation completing at least 2.25 rotations in the air.

Ok, enough for today. I need to sleep before tomorrow.

 

[Mathman]

With judges the general public can make ISU do disciplinary things regarding judges. Anyone can perform a regression analysis - all the judges scores are open to the public and we know which judge is behind what scores. ... Any "concerned citizen" can both file a complaint and make their analysis public so that ISU will be forced to act

Well, both skating insiders and "concerned citizens" have been making regression analyses about various aspects of figure skating judging for 100 years. The public has demanded this and that. Statistics professors have assigned an endless parade of graduate students the task of applying statistical methods to prove that figure skating judges are biased and incompetent. This never "forced" the ISU to do anything.

Although, you never know. At the 1927 World Championships 14-year-old Sonja Henie beat the defending champ Herma Szabo 3 judges to two. Henie got the votes of the three Norwegian judges and Szabo got the votes of the two German-Austrian judges. The next year the ISU put in a new rule that there could be only one judge per country. (I don't know if this was due to public outrage or if the Austrian skating federation flexed it ISU muscle.)

More recently in the 2002 Olympic pairs controversy, the U.S. media raised such a hew and cry that the International Olympic Committee felt the heat (especially following the real scandal of the 2002 Winter Games -- the bribery charges and financial hanky-panky between the Salt lake City organizing committee and individual IOC members). The IOC leaned on the ISU and here we are, with the new and improved figure skating judging system.

Edit: I mean "hue and cry."

 

[DenissVFan]

Wait why is does Zhulin want to ban asian skaters? And how is that ethical morally?

Just to remind you, he also thinks female skaters should be sexy for viewers' pleasure. I don't treat his opinions – or sarcastic remarks – seriously.

 

[lzxnl]

My second picture shows that not only the toe but the part of the blade is already on the ice and it is still no less than 150 degrees UR. Satoko's footage that we have in the video thread is just perfect. If you make it at 0.25 you will see it all yourself. May be you will see something different, though.

I saw that Satoko just did 2 full rotations in the air on lutz and even less on toeloop. I would not dare to talk about downgrades but even 3Lz<-3T< would give her below 8 points, of course nothing like 11.43

As for Sofia, the footage is worse. But I would argue that she had less prerotation and less underrotation completing at least 2.25 rotations in the air.

Ok, enough for today. I need to sleep before tomorrow.

Factoring prerotation would downgrade half of Eteri's student's toe jumps. Is that a standard you want applied elsewhere too? Scherbakova's quad lutz starts off sideways. So does Trusova's. I'm all for calling downgrades on everyone consistently if that would somehow happen, but it won't.

 

[flanker]

Your implication is clearly that not calling her 3T as UR prevented Liza from winning silver and you seem hell bent on proving it.

Unfortunately it just isn't true. Liza made very costly mistakes, and has weak SS, spins and PCS in general compared to Satoko. Satoko won silver on the strength of everything apart from jumps being superior and being "clean" apart from her URs, no stumbles, no falls.

Liza made mistakes, but Satoko as well. The difference is that some of the serious Satoko's miskates weren't called, while russian skaters werre penalized probably even for bad look in the eyes.

 

[readernick]

Factoring prerotation would downgrade half of Eteri's student's toe jumps. Is that a standard you want applied elsewhere too? Scherbakova's quad lutz starts off sideways. So does Trusova's. I'm all for calling downgrades on everyone consistently if that would somehow happen, but it won't.

That is the issue isn't it. Most people don't want the standard applied fairly. ( including, apparently, the Russian federation)

 

[[email protected]]

Factoring prerotation would downgrade half of Eteri's student's toe jumps. Is that a standard you want applied elsewhere too? Scherbakova's quad lutz starts off sideways. So does Trusova's. I'm all for calling downgrades on everyone consistently if that would somehow happen, but it won't.

180 degrees of prerotation is fine with me if the landing is within 90 degrees of UR. This is "2.25 revolution rule". If you want to prove that half of Eteri's students do not do 2.25 revolutions for their toe triples, bring the evidence rather than claims. Satoko barely does 2 revs in her 3 Lz and less than 2 revs in her 3T. This is the evidence:

take-off: https://imgur.com/a/4hGOdil
landing: https://imgur.com/a/uOFaPuO

I would argue that she touched the ice on the second picture and she is more parallel to the boards there than in the first one. So that it is less than 2 revolutions in the air for a triple jump. I am waiting the same analysis for some of Eteri students. Otherwise, it is "bla-bla-bla, the Russians are always whining". It's getting tiresome.

 

[Mishaminion]

So is the whining itself.

Especially when it is implied Russians are the victims of some kind of conspiracy and that skaters who beat them should be dragged through the mud.

It happened with Bradie Tennell after SA, now Satoko Miyahara, even Mariah Bell was subjected to a certain amount of venom for being above Alina in the FS in France.

It is tiresome to see the double standards where it is argued calls on Russians are mostly unfair but others deserve them.
Or the ignoring of uncalled errors by Russians

 

[Mishaminion]

Liza made mistakes, but Satoko as well. The difference is that some of the serious Satoko's miskates weren't called, while russian skaters werre penalized probably even for bad look in the eyes.

Satoko had URs, but no other mistakes. One possible UR not called.
Can you name any other error? No
What about Liza's uncalled UR?

 

[Mishaminion]

180 degrees of prerotation is fine with me

Lol of course it is