Mirai stunned Japanese fans -> Do you like Michelle Kwan?

[gkelly]

I have never heard of a normal Falling Leaf. I presume it's the same as a Split Falling Leaf but the legs are more together. Ok, I've learned something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afKizl41Y7o
triple lutz-falling leaf-double toe sequence at about 2:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOJYWm0fNNg&mode=related&search=
9 falling leafs in a row as connecting moves (at 2:45)

Thinking about the landing of a Falling Leaf, it finishes in a forward inside edge (or a flat, if you will). I don't see how it would qualify as a sequence connection in Cop unless a Triple Inside Axel would be scoreable.

It's not, and no one has ever done a triple inside axel anyway.

With the new no-three-turns-or-mohawks definition of sequences, we probably won't be seeing falling leafs in sequences any more. Although falling leaf to single inside axel (which counts as a connecting hop) immediately followed by, say half loop to double flip would be legal.

This would be safer and more CoP legal to use tt to connect to a normal 3A which, of course, is scoreable. However, like the Falling Leaf, if it used as a second connecting step (Mazurka, Single Axel), I think the rule for a sequence would not allow it. I am not sure about how many connecting steps one can have between 2 legal jumps.

You can't have any steps or turns any more. But you can have more hops.

Mazurka into single or double axel is definitely legal and if a skater can put a double axel at the end that would be one way to fulfill the axel requirement and also put a triple at the beginning of the sequence.

You won't see anyone putting triple axel at the end of such a sequence for two reasons -- 1) it's too difficult a setup for most skaters who even have triple axels to pull off consistently, or at all, and 2) a skater who can do a triple axel would want to get the full credit for its base value, not put it in a sequence where its value would be multiplied by 0.8.

 

[antmanb]

This "ant" is running to the conclusion too fast. I just said Mao doesn't need Ito/Harding's height and distance for 3As because of the faster rotation. If Mao jumps too high, she overrotates and fails. She has stoped doing salchows because of this problem. And look at 3-3Lo jumpers of present and the past. They are mostly "low and fast" type jumpers. Among them, only Mao can do 3As. This is the sign of unprecedented jumping talents.
Harding doesn't have 3-3s and Lipinski doesn't have 3As, therefore they are not comparable to Mao. I've never thought there was a person who believes Harding is the better jumper than Mao. True, she's the only officially recognized 3A jumper from the world empire.

If Mao needs the height of Harding to execute 3As, I don't expect quads from her. She's doing 3As since the age of 12. How many men can do 3As at that age? An unprecedented talent makes the history.

You made the claim in your posts that Mao has better jump technique becuase she doesn't need the height to complete the rotations. I think that is rubbish. A good jump shoul dhave both height and length as well as good tight rotation. Having to have quick rotation becuase you cannot make your jumps bigger is not a sign of a good jumper.

As others have pointed out, in order to be classed the best jumper or one of the best jumpers you have to have good technique on your jumps. As i minimum i would expect a skater to have a full arsenal of triples in addition to varied 3/3 combinations.

Mao is a very good Axel jumper and she is also does the flip and loop well. She is (if the clips on youtube are anything to go by) working hard to erradicate the flutz but as of last season she had a severe flutz, made no attempt at a 3 salchow and her triple toe loop is often pre-rotated (toe axeled). That to me is not someone with good jumping technique. Both Ito and Harding had a full set of triples taking off and landing correctly, hence why i rate them as better jumpers than Mao.

Ant

 

[rutinia]

I finally understand "ant" likes to eat high jumps, GOE and full set of triples stuffs.
Those things may be important for "good jumpers".
Mao doesn't belong to that category. Her "rival" is the history, you know.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

gkelly - First of all thanks for linking those two skaters for me to watch. Loved them both.

To me, it seemed MK's jump sequence was a 3z , a half turn bunny hop (call it a falling leaf. I don't mind) BUT she had to do a mohawk in order to do the 2T. which ment 2 moves in between the 3z and the 2T. I'm not questioning that except to ask is it or was it legal to have more than one move between two jumps. To shoot into the second jump directly from a forward edge can only get one to an axel and one is not prepared for it unless one has practiced that sequence for years Not easy.

What Kulic did was a series of falling leaves not unlike what is done in so many ballet programs especially among male dancers. It is called cupe jete and is very similar to falling leaf in skating but it must have splits. The male dancer will do several of them in a circle to the music and the audience will go wild.

Also I am quite aware of what you said about the axels. I was just using them as the only way which one can be sequenced from a jump with a bunny hop ending.
And yes, I think the mazurka to axel would work but I have serious doubts on split falling leaf.

I did read the circular on seqences, and combo about a week ago and I must confess it put me to sleep.

Mao impressed me with her footwork ending into choctaw to 3A in Tokyo. It did not look like a trick but part of the entire sequence with the music one would see in stage dancing. Otherwise you have the skaters in their back outside edge circling the ice before take off into 3A. Much like a trick!!

Joe

 

[emma]

Oh Ilia, Ilia, Ilia...ILIA!!!! wow, I'd somehow forgotten his beauty on ice, it's been awhile since I watched him skate. Thanks gkelly for those links -- what a blast to watch.

 

[antmanb]

I finally understand "ant" likes to eat high jumps, GOE and full set of triples stuffs.
Those things may be important for "good jumpers".
Mao doesn't belong to that category. Her "rival" is the history, you know.

I'm not sure i understand this but i like to eat food, not high jumps or GOE!

Ant

 

[antmanb]

gkelly - First of all thanks for linking those two skaters for me to watch. Loved them both.

To me, it seemed MK's jump sequence was a 3z , a half turn bunny hop (call it a falling leaf. I don't mind) BUT she had to do a mohawk in order to do the 2T. which ment 2 moves in between the 3z and the 2T. I'm not questioning that except to ask is it or was it legal to have more than one move between two jumps.

I think at the time....though actually thinking about it all the time up until the start of the upcoming season sequences were allowed turns on the ice - i think the old rules said something about not more than one full rotation on the ice between jumps.

What Kulic did was a series of falling leaves not unlike what is done in so many ballet programs especially among male dancers. It is called cupe jete and is very similar to falling leaf in skating but it must have splits. The male dancer will do several of them in a circle to the music and the audience will go wild.

Sounds to me like the split falling leaf on ice is the same as the coupe jete in ballet.

Ant

 

[Mathman]

Thank you, I have a hard time with the negativity about artistry dieing all the time. I don't think the skaters will let that happen. It seems to me this scouring transition is causing more doubt than necessary to say the least - and some's pessimism will be a matter of self defined destiny if they keep it up and other fall in line.

No faith = no sport.

Thanks again for wise and optimistic (also most likely true IMO) words that were a "insightful breath of air."

There abide these three, faith, hope and love.

I have to admit that I go back and forth about whether I think the New Judging System will spell the demise of figure skating as we know and love it. Many observers, from Sonia Bianchetti to Kurt Browning, fear that any points-driven scheme will lead to uninteresting cookie-cutter programs.

But maybe not.

Which is better, a poorly done triple Axel (-2 GOE) or a well done triple loop (+1 GOE). Under the IJS, the loop wins, 6 points to 5.5.

Which is better, a triple flip/triple toe in a program that garners 6.50s across the board in program component scores, or a triple toe/triple toe and 6.75 PCSs?

The NJS says the first skater wins the TES by 1.5 points, but the second skater wins the PCS by 2.0.

I agree with Seanibu. It's up to the skaters.

 

[blue dog]

On paper, a 2A+3T combo is easier than any triple-triple. But there must be something about it that is harder than it seems, because otherwise more skaters would do it.

Not necessarily, MM. The double axel has the same mechanics as the triple salchow (yes, some people say that the triple salchow has that extra half rotation, but that doesn't necessarily make it harder). They're both arm jumps--gotta have stronger arm muscles to get up in the air and start rotating.

Another reason why they tend to shy away from 2A/3T is that most double/triples are harder than a triple/double. Some skaters don't "budget" their strength when going into combo jumps, and thus use up most of their energy in the first triple, leaving the second triple with less energy, or doing a double altogether. The timing on a triple/triple has to be impeccable--you have to pop up quick and keep the momentum going. A double/triple starts out slower, and you have to build momentum as you're expending energy. Hence why Tonya Harding, one of the best jumpers in history, almost always put a three turn between her double axel into triple toe.

In the end, it might be easier for a skater to tack on a triple loop on the double axel. Although loop jumps are considered tougher (similar mechanics as the lutz), they rotate slower than a toe loop, plus, they're easier to cheat :chorus:

The ISU needs to do one of the following things:
*Allow for a jump sequence to be an 8th jumping pass; jumping sequences can be just as hard as a triple/triple--especially when you're tacking on one of those pesky half loops--they're harder than most people think. You're going from a closed/tight position (first triple) to open-hip (half-loop) to closed/tight again (second triple).
*Re-evaluate the system

Or, the skaters can just learn to triple their walleys and toe-walleys. Those are difficult jumps! (similar mech as the flip).

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The ISU needs to do one of the following things:
*Allow for a jump sequence to be an 8th jumping pass; jumping sequences can be just as hard as a triple/triple--especially when you're tacking on one of those pesky half loops--they're harder than most people think. You're going from a closed/tight position (first triple) to open-hip (half-loop) to closed/tight again (second triple).
*Re-evaluate the system
Or, the skaters can just learn to triple their walleys and toe-walleys. Those are difficult jumps! (similar mech as the flip).

Good paras, blue dog!!!

Let's bring some essence of what once was a FREE program. That'll satisfy a lot of old timers like me as well as former skaters mentioned above. Let it be an 8th jumping pass! and using strict combos and sequences adds more variety to the whole package. Whole Package
Remember that before points came along?

Allowing Triple Walleys and Triple Inside Axels will also enhance the concept of Free Skate. So what if they are tough? They're possible! and open up a Raised Barre Combo!

Joe

 

[mskater93]

Triple toe walley and a triple toe loop have the same SOV

A sequence (used to be) a series of rhythmic turns and hops between 2 or more listed jumps (no crossovers allowed). I have been known to do Axel-falling leaf-three turn-falling leaf-three turn-double toe loop, no limit to the unlisted elements between the two so long as the rhythm was maintained.

A sequence is now a series of rhythmic hops between 2 or more jumps. IF a skater could hop backwards (instead of doing a 3 turn or mohawk) after the falling leaf, it could still be used in a sequence. So, Jump #1-falling leaf-flying mohawk-Jump#2.

In the adult skating ranks, one of the coolest sequences I've seen is Lutz-pick split (stay backwards-no rotation) - flip.

 

[GoldMedalist]

In the end, it might be easier for a skater to tack on a triple loop on the double axel.

Ooph, no way. Unless that specific skater's worst jump is somehow the Toeloop and their best is the Loop. Doing Loops after Axels is so not fun.

 

[rutinia]

Without doubt MK is the one resposible for the low prestige of 4CC.
She's arrogant enough to "skip" GP series (of course to avoid more "fair" competitions at GPF). Why would she be interested in 4CC? Only US nationals and worlds were deserving place to show off her "greatness". SC and some male US champions have imitated MK's arrogant attitude. Unfortunately Japanese federation has followed too.

Let bygones be bygones. I think the meaning of 4CC will change. It depends more on the Japanese side. I have an idea.

Apart from the original three spots for each countries, TWO skaters placing within the top 12 of the world standing and/or the qualified for GPF are allowed to participate. In this case, Japan will send the worlds members to 4CC without sacrificing the second tier skaters. Same for the US and Canadian single skaters. The competition will be far more intense and the prestige of 4CC will rise dramatically.

 

[blue dog]

Ooph, no way. Unless that specific skater's worst jump is somehow the Toeloop and their best is the Loop. Doing Loops after Axels is so not fun.

I think, personally, it is more fun. The loop is a hip jump, which would give the arms a rest, unlike the toe loop, which, similar to the axel, require stronger arms to pull off.

I guess I'm one of those weird skaters who prefers the loop and the salchow to the toe jumps.

 

[GoldMedalist]

I think, personally, it is more fun.

So you're telling me you've performed a 2Axel/3Loop in competition? If so, please link it, because I've absolutely never seen anyone try that.

 

[blue dog]

So you're telling me you've performed a 2Axel/3Loop in competition? If so, please link it, because I've absolutely never seen anyone try that.

LoL No. I've only done the singled versions of both jumps. Nothing to write home about, but I find the loop easier than the toe axel. That's just me though.

Miss Ito, however, has (1985 FS). I will find the youtube.

 

[Mathman]

Let bygones be bygones.

I love it!

Let's see...shall we let bygones be bygones, or should we dredge up the ghost of Michelle Kwan in every post?

I really think you are giving too much credit to one skater. Yes, Michelle was the Kween, yadda, yadda, yadda. But the current generation of skaters cannot keep looking back to what Michelle did. They must make their own decisions.

None of the ladies' world podium -- Ando, Asada or Kim -- skated in Four Continents last year. I am pretty sure they had their own reasons for declining, not just followng along like sheep behind the arrogant (and now retired) Michelle.

 

[rutinia]

None of the ladies' world podium -- Ando, Asada or Kim -- skated in Four Continents last year. I am pretty sure they had their own reasons for declining, not just followng along like sheep behind the arrogant (and now retired) Michelle.

Two MA didn't "decline". The JSF has decided not to send them.

Kim was complaining "waist pains". She didn't even participate Asian winter games. For the Koreans, this event is 100 times more important than 4CC , because winning a gold medal assures a lifetime pension.

 

[euterpe]

Without doubt MK is the one resposible for the low prestige of 4CC.
She's arrogant enough to "skip" GP series (of course to avoid more "fair" competitions at GPF). Why would she be interested in 4CC? Only US nationals and worlds were deserving place to show off her "greatness". SC and some male US champions have imitated MK's arrogant attitude.

Kwan cut back on competitions after the 2001-2002 season because she was already experiencing hip pain. She alluded to that in an interview on Chinese TV, during a trip there after the 2002 Olympics.

The increasing pain was also the reason why the 3/3 and the loop disappeared from her programs after 2003 Worlds. She had problems adapting to CoP, especially with spins, because certain types of spins (esp the layback) increased her pain.

Incidentally, I find your posts arrogant, insulting and rabidly anti-American. So I am going to use the IGNORE function and not have to encounter one of your vile posts on every page.

 

[rutinia]

Kwan cut back on competitions after the 2001-2002 season because she was already experiencing hip pain. She alluded to that in an interview on Chinese TV, during a trip there after the 2002 Olympics.

I found THIS attitude is arrogant enough. She must have been sure the judges at US nationals and worlds are always on her side. It's very clever for her to "skip" not so sure events (i.e.GPF).

And I'm not an anti-American in general. I don't object to "help" Meissner and Hughes next year. Otherwise the US ladies are likely to lose three spots. That's too bad for Mirai and Caroline.