Mirai stunned Japanese fans -> Do you like Michelle Kwan?

[SeaniBu]

I don't think the concept of artistry will die in skating....

Thank you, I have a hard time with the negativity about artistry dieing all the time. I don't think the skaters will let that happen. It seems to me this scouring transition is causing more doubt than necessary to say the least - and some's pessimism will be a matter of self defined destiny if they keep it up and other fall in line.

No faith = no sport.

Thanks again for wise and optimistic (also most likely true IMO) words that were a "insightful breath of air."

 

[enlight78]

My veiw of the terms use lately is quite opposite of wait been said before. I always see an expressionist an someone interpreting or expressing a concept or idea. Artist is one who shows great deal of control or manipulation of a certain skill. Example would be the way a painter manipulate paint to make a two deminsional canvas into a 3D land scape. Or the way a sculpture can turn a block of stone into the Greeks idea of god. Artistry is all about grace, skill, and control. It has nothing to do with music, cheoriography, or costumes. Those are all just expressions of the artistry. A true artist could take your breath away by just skating in circles in his or her back yard.

 

[SeaniBu]

It just gets better now!

Artistry is all about grace, skill, and control. It has nothing to do with music, cheoriography, or costumes. Those are all just expressions of the artistry.

:agree:

Maybe it is a way of looking at something "the way some think it Should be" opposed to the way it is???

 

[bekalc]

I don't know which "most people" say that. If Yuna Kim has so fast rotation, she's already mastered a 3A and even quads!
Sorry, I don't consider Yuna Kim as Mao's rival, at least in techniques. The gap between them is even wider than IS and MK. And after watching their latest show programs, I confirmed Yuna Kim has lost any advantages.
Until last season, most of the non jump elements are "relaxation" parts for Mao. As a result, she lost so many levels and points. But for this season, she doesn't compromise anything.
Yuna Kim has been reported to aim "the level 4 footworks". I understand that is the only technical frontier left for her. I'm not sure Mao has a mercy for her though.

Here's a little secret for you rutinia. One of the reasons Yu-na Kim started working with Orser is because he is a triple axel master.... And according to Orser last summer, Yu-na was full rotating the triple axel, but then injuries started happening, and so they decided to put it off until she was healthier. So rotating a triple axel, is not an issue for Yu-na. Fear of injury is.

As mentioned earlier, technique and technical difficulty are two different things. Yu-na Kim has wonderful jumping technique. If you look at her scores, she get's the highest GOE points of anyone. Her jumps are so good that the ISU is using them as their video textbook example for this year...

I agree it's way to early to label Mao-the jumping bean Yu-na the artist. Yu-na isn't exactly a terrible jumper herself, and who says she won't conquer the triple axel? Mao has the talent to be a wonderful artist.
Who says the triple axel won't go.

 

[Tonichelle]

Brian Orser rules all! I am really starting to love Yu-Na's skating... can't wait to see what else he can bring to her skating He seems like the perfect fit for her!

/random

 

[sorcerer]

I imagine the followings.

Mao would wish to let her skating speak for itself.
She would hate any detraction about others in aim to emphasize her superiority.
The value of her skating needs no contrasting to the past.
Mao would not want to have a "fan" who denies the superb values of legendary skaters.

Mao would want her skating to be artistic in its universal sense.
She would love to be acknowledged of her effort for the perfection of beauty.
The value of her skating lies not in the jumps alone.
Mao would not want to have a "fan" who sees her only through the Code of Points.

 

[blue dog]

I imagine the followings.

Mao would wish to let her skating speak for itself.
She would hate any detraction about others in aim to emphasize her superiority.
The value of her skating needs no contrasting to the past.
Mao would not want to have a "fan" who denies the superb values of legendary skaters.

Mao would want her skating to be artistic in its universal sense.
She would love to be acknowledged of her effort for the perfection of beauty.
The value of her skating lies not in the jumps alone.
Mao would not want to have a "fan" who sees her only through the Code of Points.

Sorcerer, you are a TRUE Mao fan. You really do care about her as a person, not just as someone we watch from competitions.

 

[Fredegunda]

I imagine the followings.

Mao would wish to let her skating speak for itself.
She would hate any detraction about others in aim to emphasize her superiority.
The value of her skating needs no contrasting to the past.
Mao would not want to have a "fan" who denies the superb values of legendary skaters.

Mao would want her skating to be artistic in its universal sense.
She would love to be acknowledged of her effort for the perfection of beauty.
The value of her skating lies not in the jumps alone.
Mao would not want to have a "fan" who sees her only through the Code of Points.

 

[antmanb]

I only saw this once from her--and she came had to save the landing.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=U4hB_PxKz98

To be fair she definitely hit at Moscow Worlds and i'm sure one other time which is why i guessed three.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

As Antman says in his first sentence, the most important factor is whether the underroation is so bad as to downgrade the jump.

For instance, in 2007 Worlds SP Mao Asada attempted a triple flip/triple loop (10.5 base value). But she could only manage a 3F/1Lo with -3 GOE and ended up with only 3.0 points for the combination. It landed her fifth in the SP and cost her the World championship.

In the LP she nailed the 3F+Lo, got positive GOE, and ended up with 10.83 for the element. This, along with the triple Axel, would have been enough for her to catch Ando after all, except that Mao's easier combo, a 2A+3T, was downgraded and she received only 3.4 points for it instead of the base value 7.3 (next year it will be worth 7.5).

BUT...the real reason why the CoP has killed the 3T/3T combination is something altogether different, unrelated to the difficulty of various combos.

According to the Zayak rules you can only repeat two jumps, the repitition must be in a combo, and you cannot do any jump more than twice, regardless. So if you do a 3T+3T, under the new judging system, you have cut yourself off at the knees. Now you cannot do 2 Lutzes and 2 Flips, the highest point getters, you cannot do a 3F+3T, you cannot do a 3Lz+3T -- CoP-wise, you're screwed.

But the difference between a toe-loop and a flip is only 1.5 points. Something which you can easliy make up on the GOEs of the jumps. If a skater can do a 3T/3T and cannot do another 3/3 or the other 3/3 she does attempt off a harder triple is shakey then doing the 3T/3T allows her to do 7 triples (something she might not otherwise be able to do) or at least if she can rely on good GOE (something which michelle could have, or Czako could have, Korpii also could)

E.g.

3Lz/2T/2Lp
3T/3T
3F
3S
3Lp
3Lz
2A

Base score: 41.1

Not too bad.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

I still don't understand the no points for a half loop to connect those inside take off jumps like the flip and salchow. Called a sequence, I believe. Are there any other connecting sequence moves besides the half loop?

Joe

[EDITED: I forgot about the new rules that don't allow three turns or mohawks in a sequence anymore!]

I agree the rule about sequences really needs to be re-evaluated. Other jumps that can be used as the middle jump in a sequence could be:

Falling leaf (either normal or split) take off on the same edge as the loop but only a half turn in the air landing on the toe of the opposite foot and pushing onto the inside edge of the other skate. This would allow you to go straight into an inside axel, or turn a mohawk and do a salchow or flip, or turn a mohawk put the other skate back down and do a loop or toe loop.

Mazurka - take off like a toe loop, half turn in the air with many leg variations posible in the air (depending on how good you are!) similar landing to the falling leaf (i think).

Technically there is no reason why a skater could execute a single toe loop which lands on the BI edge of the other foot.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Oh, did "ant" misunderstand?

If i did misunderstand i apologise, i thought you said that Mao's jumps were better than Ito's, that her spins were better than Ruh's. Clearly her jumps are not as good as Ito's and her spins are light years away from Ruh's.

"ant" seems to like "high jumps" of Harding and Yuna Kim.
I think their jumping techniques are inferior to Mao's.
They need that height and distance because of the slower rotation.

I have never mentioned Yuna Kim's jumps - you seem to have a hatred of her nearly as much as your hatred of Kwan - go back to any of my posts and in this thread and i have never mentioned Yuna. Of course height is one of the major factors to a good jump - the GOE rewards a higher jump. If two skaters complete the same jump as rotated and with as much flow into and out of the jump, and the only difference is that one is higher than the other which do you think is rewarded? This is not a matter of opinion it is of fact - the higher jump wins everytime. If fast rotation and low jumps is the overriding factor to good technique then Tara Lipinski has Mao beaten hands down since she had the lowest jumps with fastest rotation.

At least "ant" doesn't mention "SC's spirals". He may admit, and I expect Mao will surpass SC in this respect.

I didn't mention Sasha's spiral because i thought her spiral from a skating perspective was over-rated. Sasha's spiral is better that Moa's in terms of extension and amplitute but not from an edging and true skating persepctive....but then if you go back to your posts you claimed flexibility trumped all - surely you must think Sasha's sprial is better that Mao's becuase of that? Personally i don't.

I see you have selected to leave other of my posts without comment...i'll draw my own conclusions from that.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Well, the famous MK term "connection to the audience" is understood both ways. MK is very good at appealing (selling herself) to the audiences. Her simple elements and moves have become fabulous enough to "take your soul to the heavens and make you hear the angels sing" to some people. That's typical American ways of self intoxication. I don't think these things are universal in any sense. Mao is more like a traditional Japanese artisan. They are prould to present great techniques and works with minimum ostentation.

I'm starting to think that the poster who said that Michelle must have peed in your conrflakes was right!!! Do you think the term connection with the audience was coined in the era of the great Michelle Kwan?

You havne't been watching skating for very long have you?

Youtube any figure skating from the 80s or the even the 70s and listen to the commentators...connection with the audience has been talked about forever!

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Now here's a program with no triple Axel and no triple-triple that brings in 46.4 points, before GOEs. If this skater had gotten +1 GOE on four of her elements, she would have beaten Mao!

3L3+2T, 2A+3T, 3F, 3Lo*, 3F+2Lo+2Lo*, 3S*, 3S.

I hope Alissa Czisny is reading this!!!

Zayak Violation MM - the combo off the first lutz could go on one of the salchow's though.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

I strongly agree to this part. But, I would strongly disagree that technically "empty" skating can be artistic. Again, just my opinion.
To digress a little bit, I've seen a few japanese fluffs about Mao vs. Yu-na and looks like the Japanese media has labeled them as cute jumper vs. sexy expressionist as early as in their junior seasons. Too early to define and categorize any skater or athelete, no?

I expect that's probably why rutinia's up in arms - s/he's swallowed the media creation of "tension" hook line and sinker and is beating the Mao drum loud and fierce!! Just another person falling for what the media has fed them....nothing more, noting less.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

[EDITED: I forgot about the new rules that don't allow three turns or mohawks in a sequence anymore!]

I agree the rule about sequences really needs to be re-evaluated. Other jumps that can be used as the middle jump in a sequence could be:

Falling leaf (either normal or split) take off on the same edge as the loop but only a half turn in the air landing on the toe of the opposite foot and pushing onto the inside edge of the other skate. This would allow you to go straight into an inside axel, or turn a mohawk and do a salchow or flip, or turn a mohawk put the other skate back down and do a loop or toe loop.

I have never heard of a normal Falling Leaf. I presume it's the same as a Split Falling Leaf but the legs are more together. Ok, I've learned something.

Thinking about the landing of a Falling Leaf, it finishes in a forward inside edge (or a flat, if you will). I don't see how it would qualify as a sequence connection in Cop unless a Triple Inside Axel would be scoreable. I don't think a sequence can have more than one connecting move between two valid CoP jumps. If two connecting moves are permitted, it would be ok but given the speed of a Falling Leaf, it would be extremely tricky to do more than a 3 turn after its landing.

Mazurka - take off like a toe loop, half turn in the air with many leg variations posible in the air (depending on how good you are!) similar landing to the falling leaf (i think).

This would be safer and more CoP legal to use tt to connect to a normal 3A which, of course, is scoreable. However, like the Falling Leaf, if it used as a second connecting step (Mazurka, Single Axel), I think the rule for a sequence would not allow it. I am not sure about how many connecting steps one can have between 2 legal jumps.

Technically there is no reason why a skater could execute a single toe loop which lands on the BI edge of the other foot. Ant

Yeah, that would work. Imo, I doubt skaters if using Sequences will do other types than the half loop.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

3Lz/2T/2Lp
3T/3T
3F
3S
3Lp
3Lz
2A

Base score: 41.1

Not too bad.

But change the 3T/3T to 2A/3T and 2A to 3F+2T and you've picked up an extra 2.8 points.

On paper, a 2A+3T combo is easier than any triple-triple. But there must be something about it that is harder than it seems, because otherwise more skaters would do it. The big thing about this combo is that it satisfies the Axel requirement, but lets you do a triple in every jumping pass so you can do 7 triples without a triple/triple.

Zayak Violation MM - the combo off the first lutz could go on one of the salchow's though.

Oops. The last Salchow was supposed to be a Lutz.

 

[antmanb]

I have never heard of a normal Falling Leaf. I presume it's the same as a Split Falling Leaf but the legs are more together. Ok, I've learned something.

The falling leaf is exactly that - not trying to get a split. Its a nice easy jump that can help you get your balance back after a slightly wonky landing too.

Thinking about the landing of a Falling Leaf, it finishes in a forward inside edge (or a flat, if you will). I don't see how it would qualify as a sequence connection in Cop unless a Triple Inside Axel would be scoreable. I don't think a sequence can have more than one connecting move between two valid CoP jumps. If two connecting moves are permitted, it would be ok but given the speed of a Falling Leaf, it would be extremely tricky to do more than a 3 turn after its landing.


This would be safer and more CoP legal to use tt to connect to a normal 3A which, of course, is scoreable. However, like the Falling Leaf, if it used as a second connecting step (Mazurka, Single Axel), I think the rule for a sequence would not allow it. I am not sure about how many connecting steps one can have between 2 legal jumps.


Yeah, that would work. Imo, I doubt skaters if using Sequences will do other types than the half loop.

Joe

Yeah after MM put up the new rule i was reminded that any turns have been banned from a sequence so e.g. Sasha's 3T/3S sequence would no longer qualify under the new rules.

Shame because unless they start giving sequences bonus points instead of penalty deductions there really is not longer any incentive to try a sequence since one which involves an actual jump between the two big jumps and no turns is far harder than just turns in between the two jumps.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

But change the 3T/3T to 2A/3T and 2A to 3F+2T and you've picked up an extra 2.8 points.

On paper, a 2A+3T combo is easier than any triple-triple. But there must be something about it that is harder than it seems, because otherwise more skaters would do it. The big thing about this combo is that it satisfies the Axel requirement, but lets you do a triple in every jumping pass so you can do 7 triples without a triple/triple.

Oops. The last Salchow was supposed to be a Lutz.

I hadn't thought about the 2A/3T but you are right! I can see why the 3T/3T will go the way of the dodo!

Ant

 

[rutinia]

I have never mentioned Yuna Kim's jumps - you seem to have a hatred of her nearly as much as your hatred of Kwan - go back to any of my posts and in this thread and i have never mentioned Yuna. Of course height is one of the major factors to a good jump - the GOE rewards a higher jump. If two skaters complete the same jump as rotated and with as much flow into and out of the jump, and the only difference is that one is higher than the other which do you think is rewarded? This is not a matter of opinion it is of fact - the higher jump wins everytime. If fast rotation and low jumps is the overriding factor to good technique then Tara Lipinski has Mao beaten hands down since she had the lowest jumps with fastest rotation.

This "ant" is running to the conclusion too fast. I just said Mao doesn't need Ito/Harding's height and distance for 3As because of the faster rotation. If Mao jumps too high, she overrotates and fails. She has stoped doing salchows because of this problem. And look at 3-3Lo jumpers of present and the past. They are mostly "low and fast" type jumpers. Among them, only Mao can do 3As. This is the sign of unprecedented jumping talents.
Harding doesn't have 3-3s and Lipinski doesn't have 3As, therefore they are not comparable to Mao. I've never thought there was a person who believes Harding is the better jumper than Mao. True, she's the only officially recognized 3A jumper from the world empire.

If Mao needs the height of Harding to execute 3As, I don't expect quads from her. She's doing 3As since the age of 12. How many men can do 3As at that age? An unprecedented talent makes the history.