New ISU rules for the upcoming season

[macy]

To the last point, I want to reiterate that Javier Fernandez has been quoted as not being happy with the amount of prerotation in the sport. I would like to think he's qualified to comment.

Also, some of us here have also put on some skates and tried these jumps out ourselves. We may not have jumped triples like the rest, but we've still jumped enough to feel the difference between a prerotated takeoff and an un-prerotated takeoff.

yes i know Javi has mentioned it and that not all in this group have not skated before, which is why i said the vast majority, and many (not all). i was careful with my words while writing that post.

my point is, if we saw this narrative everywhere in the skating community and many others besides Javi expressing concern about these topics (or even talking about it at all), then i think it would be more reasonable for the ISU to look into it- not because the majority is coming from a select group of fans who think certain skaters are cheating and using it as grounds to attack another skater.

they need to be taking into consideration the opinions and thoughts of those who these rules actually affect, which seems to be that there is very little to no concern at all.

 

[eaglehelang]

Well, wasnt the 'q' rule due to complaint letter sent by Russian Fed after the Russia Ladies had a couple UR calls at a competition? That's what the ISU Vice VP admitted it is.

And didnt Mishin talk about combining the flip & the lutz & said he suggested it to ISU?
https://fs-gossips.com/there-are-very-few-skaters-who-jump-lutz-and-flip-equally-perfect/

The ISU, comparatively to other Olympic sports, cares little what the fans think. It's what the powers that be and their stakeholders think is whats important to them.
All other actions is just PR to show they are doing something.

 

[cohen-esque]

they need to be taking into consideration the opinions and thoughts of those who these rules actually affect, which seems to be that there is very little to no concern at all.

True. But the issue with this is that I don’t think that many skaters are going to advocate for rules that punish their weaknesses. And I don’t think many skaters are actually going to care much about cleaning up their technique (as long as they can land their jumps) unless the ISU creates and enforces rules making it necessary. We’ve seen time and time again that skaters only start making concentrated efforts to fix technical flaws after judging trends turn against them, most recently when the ISU sharply increased the “e” call penalties, but before that when “<“ calls began being enforced, and under the previous edge system when “e” was still more harshly punished, but again, only once they actually started enforcing those rules after a few seasons of ignoring them.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Why should the skaters and their coaches complain about pre-rotation though? I mean - let's face it - most of the skaters today have an excessive pre-rotation on their jumps. While at the same time skaters like Yuna, Yuzuru, Carolina and Nathan managed to be big winners anyway. To a certain extend skaters like Tuktamysheva and Boyang Jin had success too.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

True. But the issue with this is that I don’t think that many skaters are going to advocate for rules that punish their weaknesses. And I don’t think many skaters are actually going to care much about cleaning up their technique (as long as they can land their jumps) unless the ISU creates and enforces rules making it necessary. We’ve seen time and time again that skaters only start making concentrated efforts to fix technical flaws after judging trends turn against them, most recently when the ISU sharply increased the “e” call penalties, but before that when “<“ calls began being enforced, and under the previous edge system when “e” was still more harshly punished, but again, only once they actually started enforcing those rules after a few seasons of ignoring them.

OMG. You wrote pretty much the same thing like me.

 

[nussnacker]

To the last point, I want to reiterate that Javier Fernandez has been quoted as not being happy with the amount of prerotation in the sport. I would like to think he's qualified to comment.

Also, some of us here have also put on some skates and tried these jumps out ourselves. We may not have jumped triples like the rest, but we've still jumped enough to feel the difference between a prerotated takeoff and an un-prerotated takeoff.

Javi speaking about it is quite funny actually since he himself isn’t a prime example of the absence of said prerotation. But when he said it, it sounded more like he doesn’t consider himself a part of the “prerotating” group.

 

[ancientpeas]

Javi speaking about it is quite funny actually since he himself isn’t a prime example of the absence of said prerotation. But when he said it, it sounded more like he doesn’t consider himself a part of the “prerotating” group.

I wonder how many skaters would consider themselves part of that group though. I mean are any of them going to put their hand up and say "yes, in fact, I am a pre-rotator and I'm proud of it"?

BTW.. I always thought Javi's quads were beautiful.

 

[macy]

True. But the issue with this is that I don’t think that many skaters are going to advocate for rules that punish their weaknesses. And I don’t think many skaters are actually going to care much about cleaning up their technique (as long as they can land their jumps) unless the ISU creates and enforces rules making it necessary. We’ve seen time and time again that skaters only start making concentrated efforts to fix technical flaws after judging trends turn against them, most recently when the ISU sharply increased the “e” call penalties, but before that when “<“ calls began being enforced, and under the previous edge system when “e” was still more harshly punished, but again, only once they actually started enforcing those rules after a few seasons of ignoring them.

you are right, maybe not active skaters themselves, but if it really were a big deal i'd expect it to be more of a topic of discussion at least from coaches concerned about "correct technique" being awarded, or even retired elite skaters (like Javi, or Kiira )

 

[nussnacker]

I wonder how many skaters would consider themselves part of the that group though. I mean are any of them going to put their hand up and say "yes, in fact, I am a pre-rotator and I'm proud of it"?

BTW.. I always thought Javi's quads were beautiful.

His quads are great! The prerotation gods mainly have issues with flips and lutzes, and Javi never had an exceptional Yuzuru quality when it came to those jumps. That’s why it was a little strange hearing him saying that.
I’m sure many of them are aware of their issues, they watch themselves on videos all the time anyways.
But the other side may be true as well, is that they have a different understanding of prerotation compared to fans’ definition.

 

[cohen-esque]

you are right, maybe not active skaters themselves, but if it really were a big deal i'd expect it to be more of a topic of discussion at least from coaches concerned about "correct technique" being awarded, or even retired elite skaters (like Javi, or Kiira )

I suppose, at least from retired skaters, you might expect to hear more. And even Javi only brought up PR in a sour grapes moment. But I think coaches have as much reason to ignore these things as skaters, especially if they have active skaters with the same issues. It seems to me that when they do speak up about these topics, it’s always as much political as it is about being concerned with technique for the sake of it. Usually they end comparing their students to others, using their student as the “good” example. Mishin, for example, does this a lot, even if he also truly cares about purity of technique or whatever. And many retired skaters go on to be involved with coaching or judging.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

As for the retired skaters - they also pre-rotated a lot - Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, Kristi Yamaguchi, Yagudin. Plushenko also was not perfect, even though he was better than them.

 

[ancientpeas]

His quads are great! The prerotation gods mainly have issues with flips and lutzes, and Javi never had an exceptional Yuzuru quality when it came to those jumps. That’s why it was a little strange hearing him saying that.
I’m sure many of them are aware of their issues, they watch themselves on videos all the time anyways.
But the other side may be true as well, is that they have a different understanding of prerotation compared to fans’ definition.

There is an quote from.. gosh is Yung or Freud.. I'll have to check about when we see someone else do something we do ourselves but hate how we respond even more negatively to them than if we didn't have the fault in ourselves. Projection.

Yururu's axel and quads are beautiful too. I just always really liked Javi's quad.. salcow. I want to say salcow but maybe it was the toe?

 

[ancientpeas]

As for the retired skaters - they also pre-rotated a lot - Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, Kristi Yamaguchi, Yagudin. Plushenko also was not perfect, even though he was better than them.

I think Sarah Hughes was one of the worst offenders for pre rotation and underrotation if I remember correctly.

If I recall Elvis was a really good rotator. Fast and quick. But of course age and time sometimes blurs the memories.

 

[cohen-esque]

As for the retired skaters - they also pre-rotated a lot - Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, Kristi Yamaguchi, Yagudin. Plushenko also was not perfect, even though he was better than them.

Look, Sasha Cohen unquestionably had the best jumps of her generation, mmmkay?

 

[1111bm]

Boyang Jin was reported to have tried 4L either in official practice or at domestic competition in China.
There was a video on it somewhere in weibo but I cant recall which event. China/Boyang fans might remember.

Yes, that's the one I was thinking of. Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95YpGhl5ZJY&t=104

Javi speaking about it is quite funny actually since he himself isn’t a prime example of the absence of said prerotation. But when he said it, it sounded more like he doesn’t consider himself a part of the “prerotating” group.

IKR, I was gonna say the exact same thing.
(but if I recall correctly, he made sure to voice his concerns only after he retired )

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Just want to point out this logic.
2T = 2S.
3T < 3S.
2F < 2Lz.
3F = 3Lz.
Logic much?


In terms o flip and lutz prerotation javi knows he does it I can guarantee. You can admit to a mistake whilst also believing those without the mistake should be rewarded more.
I admit to half prerotation on my flip (despite issue not being their on triple lutz just flip).
And I believe that those with less prerotation deserves higher GOE.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Just want to point out this logic.
2T = 2S.
3T < 3S.
2F < 2Lz.
3F = 3Lz.
Logic much?


In terms o flip and lutz prerotation javi knows he does it I can guarantee. You can admit to a mistake whilst also believing those without the mistake should be rewarded more.
I admit to half prerotation on my flip (despite issue not being their on triple lutz just flip).
And I believe that those with less prerotation deserves higher GOE.

Wow. How weird.
Also 3Lz=3F
4Lo=4F=4Lz

As for Javi, he does not pre-rotate a la Shcherbakova. I read in another figure skating forum that the new rule about pre-rotation is going to be called the Shcherbakova rule. (I wonder If she read it already, hm?)

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Wow. How weird.
Also 3Lz=3F
4Lo=4F=4Lz

As for Javi, he does not pre-rotate a la Shcherbakova. I read in another figure skating forum that the new rule about pre-rotation is going to be called the Shcherbakova rule. (I wonder If she read it already, hm?)

4Lo = 4Lz.
4Lo<< is < than Lz<<

 

[1111bm]

I guess the ISU is trying to create a level playing field for disadvantaged skaters. Hanyu was hampered by the first rule change after Pyeongchang and Shcherbakova is the second victim. She scored over 160 in free skate with two quad Lutz jumps (14.79 points for a quadruple Lutz; 18.66 points a quad Lutz-triple toe loop combination).

Ok, I’m confused. Let’s see:

A rule change, that cut one jumping pass for the men and reduced the BV of quads (with 4Lz taking the biggest hit), which de facto increases the weight of PCS
…increased the max. possible points for the ChSq

…and a revamp of the GOE system, which meant that with good quality on your jumps, you could still score pretty much the same amount of points as before, for the same jump in total, if not more, but you couldn’t rely on sloppy execution and BV alone anymore.

How exactly does that hamper a skater such as Yuzuru
…who’s always receiving very high PCS, even when not at his best still earning low-to-mid 9s
…who certainly knows how to sell a choreo sequence after a triumphant skate
…whose jumps are famously of very high quality when he’s on
…who was regularly jumping 4T, 4S and 4Lo and had only jumped a 4Lz once in competition before his accident
…who had several younger, upcoming rivals regularly jumping 4Lz (and 4F too)
…who often doesn’t have the best stamina when it comes to the free skate with its high number of jumping passes
?


On a related note, seeing the old BV of the 4Lz from the last quad and the bigger point difference to the 4Lo, makes it even more plausible that this was one big reason why so many skaters went straight for the quad Lutz back then. And even when the rule change happened and it was devalued the most relative to the other quads, there was still a difference in points that remained. And of course, all those skaters that had already been working on it for a long time (and probably neglecting their Loop in general, I would think), weren’t suddenly gonna switch plans.

 

[Elspeth]

Ok, I’m confused. Let’s see:

A rule change, that cut one jumping pass for the men and reduced the BV of quads (with 4Lz taking the biggest hit), which de facto increases the weight of PCS
…increased the max. possible points for the ChSq

…and a revamp of the GOE system, which meant that with good quality on your jumps, you could still score pretty much the same amount of points as before, for the same jump in total, if not more, but you couldn’t rely on sloppy execution and BV alone anymore.

How exactly does that hamper a skater such as Yuzuru
…who’s always receiving very high PCS, even when not at his best still earning low-to-mid 9s
…who certainly knows how to sell a choreo sequence after a triumphant skate
…whose jumps are famously of very high quality when he’s on
…who was regularly jumping 4T, 4S and 4Lo and had only jumped a 4Lz once in competition before his accident
…who had several younger, upcoming rivals regularly jumping 4Lz (and 4F too)
…who often doesn’t have the best stamina when it comes to the free skate with its high number of jumping passes
?


On a related note, seeing the old BV of the 4Lz from the last quad and the bigger point difference to the 4Lo, makes it even more plausible that this was one big reason why so many skaters went straight for the quad Lutz back then. And even when the rule change happened and it was devalued the most relative to the other quads, there was still a difference in points that remained. And of course, all those skaters that had already been working on it for a long time (and probably neglecting their Loop in general, I would think), weren’t suddenly gonna switch plans.

I'm not of the opinion that the rules post Olympics were designed in any way to hamper Hanyu. I can see though how they might be less advantageous to him, and I think the key to that lies in consistency.

Hanyu always wants to do something new. I admire the guy looking at his career, because when he turned senior he did like one quad in the free. Now he can do five at a push, despite having aged by nearly a decade.

The problem with adding new tech all the time though, is that it makes him slightly less consistent. It takes a while to stabilise a jump. Occasionally Hanyu just has an off day. In the previous quad this was fine (though of course it has cost him tournaments). The 2014-2018 scoring system specifically rewarded risk-taking. Falling on a rotated quad could still get you about the same amount of points as doing a mediocre triple, and landing a clean quad netted you a million points. Combine this with high PCS in Hanyu's case, and you have got a golden combination.

The pre-Olympic scoring system is in part why there has been such an explosion in men's quad jumps, the risk was almost always worth the reward.

The +5/-5 system is a lot harsher on jump mistakes, and focuses more on quality execution. This benefits Hanyu when he is having a good day, but can be punishing if he makes even one mistake, unlike before. The hit he takes in GOE is just huge, especially for someone like Hanyu, whose biggest weapon is getting +GOE for how he executes his jumps.

In the ladies for example, I don't think Kostornaia would have stood a chance against Trusova if they were competing under the old rules, purely because the scoring system favoured the high TES risk takers. Trusova falling on a 4S in 2017 wouldn't have had the same impact as her doing it now. She would have just offset the damage by landing a successful quad or two. Now it is devastating. Which is why she barely scraped third at Russian nationals.