2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[brakes]

I could totally see her being loved and cherished top skater in Germany/France/Italy with great following and contracts.
I can see those comments. like "we all know Russian ladies are unreachable at the moment, but our Liza did fantastic taking bronze in Nebelhorn with her new personal record of 196,78!" and all the praise that follows. Girl like her could even start a small boom for figure skating there.

 

[Scott512]

I could totally see her being loved and cherished top skater in Germany/France/Italy with great following and contracts.
I can see those comments. like "we all know Russian ladies are unreachable at the moment, but our Liza did fantastic taking bronze in Nebelhorn with her new personal record of 196,78!" and all the praise that follows. Girl like her could even start a small boom for figure skating there.

Da! So why don't more of these awesome Russian girls lost in the shuffle of the Russian ladies greatness and the Russian ladies great depth do what you recommended? Maybe they love their city and country and don't want to live and train in another country. Could Little Liza aka Liza N for instance represent another country while still living and training in St. Petersburg the city she loves most in the world? If she can do that why not make the change? To me she is an absolute gem and always underscored and underappreciated by the fed much like Nastya Gubanova.

 

[ruga]

Making a career in another country is not as easy as it seems. Especially if a skater has no connection to said country and can't speak the local language. That makes the "contracts and fame" part very difficult - unless you are Zagitova/Kihira/Trusova etc. tier skater, just skating under the flag with no connection to it and being 10th-15th at competitions won't necessarily bring attention of the people.

IMO, Skaters who aim to switch should aim for countries where the Russian language is still often used (Ukraine, Belarus) or where they have some heritage (Israel and Armenia could be usual choices).

Also, now there's 2 year "quarantine" after leaving Russia so now it's even harder for skaters that are good but not good enough).

 

[hanca]

Making a career in another country is not as easy as it seems. Especially if a skater has no connection to said country and can't speak the local language. That makes the "contracts and fame" part very difficult - unless you are Zagitova/Kihira/Trusova etc. tier skater, just skating under the flag with no connection to it and being 10th-15th at competitions won't necessarily bring attention of the people.

IMO, Skaters who aim to switch should aim for countries where the Russian language is still often used (Ukraine, Belarus) or where they have some heritage (Israel and Armenia could be usual choices).

Also, now there's 2 year "quarantine" after leaving Russia so now it's even harder for skaters that are good but not good enough).

It can’t be impossible, otherwise so many skaters wouldn’t do it. I think the big difference is in funding. If a skater has a chance to get in the national team in Russia, they will have coaching/ice/skates/competitions paid. If one leaves, they will be funding it themselves. They probably would be able to stay in Russia and train there, but I doubt that any small federation would have that much money to fund their training abroad. Which makes me wonder whether Kurakova is from a very rich family or whether Polish federation is happy to pay training with Order. That must be quite expensive!

 

[plushyfan]

Liza Nugumanova left Mishin some years ago. Mishin said she didn't want to work as he waited. Liza thought she is a little star. She recieved many << for her jumps in last season but very enjoyable to watch!

 

[Shayuki]

Random thought on Nugumanova.
Just imagine this girl on some smaller fs country, occassionally taking some challengers medals, maybe GP's once in a while. With some interviews, photo shoots and her social media activity she could become super popular there. OK, she unders those triples, but who freaking cares? She's such a fun girl. Russia is really fortunate-unfortunate place to be born in, if you're a figure skater. :think:

https://www.tiktok.com/@liza_nugumanova__/video/6836212966401084677

Unfortunately, she peaked at 12 years of age. Afterwards she seemed to lack motivation or something, and could never match that season since she became junior eligible. It's a shame, but some people just don't have the personality required for success.

Da! So why don't more of these awesome Russian girls lost in the shuffle of the Russian ladies greatness and the Russian ladies great depth do what you recommended? Maybe they love their city and country and don't want to live and train in another country. Could Little Liza aka Liza N for instance represent another country while still living and training in St. Petersburg the city she loves most in the world? If she can do that why not make the change? To me she is an absolute gem and always underscored and underappreciated by the fed much like Nastya Gubanova.

St. Petersburg isn't the issue when it comes to scoring, as long as you're trained by Chebotareva. Chebotareva's skaters get crazy high scores.

 

[icetug]

I doubt that any small federation would have that much money to fund their training abroad. Which makes me wonder whether Kurakova is from a very rich family or whether Polish federation is happy to pay training with Order. That must be quite expensive!

Katia has a private sponsor who pays for her training in Canada. As a national team member she also gets funding from the federation but I'm sure it would be far insufficient for all expenses.

 

[dunffvanstorn]

So, I'm making some charts about the scores of the top 3 ladies last season (Aliona, Anna and Sasha). To be very clear since the beginning, I'm not a very devoted fan of any of them, although I should say Aliona might be my favorite one of them in terms of skating. I like all of the 3 girls, and I also judge their skills/jumps very fairly in my honest opinion.

I was bored at home and decided to check the veracity of what some posters here were saying - that Sasha would only beat clean Anna and clean Aliona with 5 quads. And I'm going to analyze her free skate scores of the entire season to better understand that (and compare with Anna's and Aliona's in 3 competitions: Russian Nationals, GPF and Europeans). That being said, let's analyze, shall we?

== JAPAN OPEN ==
Free Skate total score: 160.53
4 quads (4S, 4Lz, 4T3T, 4T1Eu3S)
PCS 63.02
StSq3
Negative GOE in 2 elements: 3Lz3Lo, 4T1Eu3S.

== SKATE CANADA ==
Free Skate total score: 166.62
4 quads (4S, 4Lz, 4T3T, 4T1Eu3S)
PCS 67.42
StSq3
Negative GOE in 1 element: 4S.

== ROSTELECOM ==
Free Skate total score: 160.26
4 quads (4S, 4Lz, 4T3T, 4T1Eu3S)
PCS 66.92
StSq4
Negative GOE in 2 elements: 4S and 3Lz3Lo.

== GPF ==
Free Skate total score: 161.73
5 quads planned (4F, 4S, 4Lz, 4T, 4T1Eu3S)
PCS 65.93
StSq3
Negative GOE in 2 elements: 4S (that she popped and did a 2S) and 4T.
=> Interesting: she changed from 3Lz3Lo to 3Lz3T in this competition.

== RUSSIAN NATIONALS ==
Free Skate total score: 149.88
4 quads planned (4F, 4Lz, 4T3T, 4T1Eu3S)
PCS 69.14
StSq3
Negative GOE in 2 elements: 4F and 4Lz -> she also made the 4T a 2T, but received positive GOE.
=> Interesting 2: she came back to 3Lz3Lo.

== EUROPEANS ==
Free Skate total score: 150.39
4 quads planned (4Lz, 4T3T, 4F, 4T,)
PCS 67.25
StSq4
Negative GOE in 2 elements: 4Lz and 4T (she also introduced a new combination, 3Lz1Eu3S).

==== ALEXANDRA TRUSOVA ====
- Best event: Skate Canada (166+, 4 quads, 1 fall only on 4S).
- Worst event: Russian Nationals (149+, 4 quads, 2 falls and 1 pop on quads).
- More quads landed: Japan Open (4 quads fully landed).

==== ANNA SHCHERBAKOVA ====
- Best event: Russian Nationals (181.94, 3 quads, no falls, PCS 73.72, StSq3).
- GPF: 162.65, 3 quads, 1 fall on 4Lz, PCS 69.13, StSq4).
- Europeans: 159.81, 3 quads, 1 fall on 4Lz, 71.19 PCS, StSq3).

==== ALIONA KOSTORNAIA ====
- Best event: Russian Nationals (169.97, no falls, PCS 77.07, StSq4).
- GPF: 162.14, no falls, PCS 73.27, StSq3).
- Europeans: 155.89, 1 fall on 3 Lz, PCS 72.58, StSq3).

So, first of all, most of you will say "oh, but you're not considering the short program, in which Aliona would totally win". And, if you say that, you're right. However, I'm using this to try to make predictions about next season, in which we don't if Sasha will add or not the 3A in the SP, if quads will be allowed or not in the SP. Another reason why I'm using free skate scores is that the overall layout and score difference between the girls in the short program were mostly stable during the season, the big difference was the FS.

Conclusions:
1. I don't think Anna would have the same scores internationally as the ones she had in Russian Nationals. I can't imagine 181+ in international scene.
2. The number of quads wasn't Sasha's problem. For me, the biggest problem was the lack of consistency between the layouts she used during the season and having insisted so much on 4S. She was also learning 3A, which probably didn't leave much time to perfect 4S too. I think 4 quads is totally fine and possible for her, if she stays with 1 layout the entire season and if she improves on the rest (PCS, StSq, program, choreography -> considering it would increase her SP scores too).
3. Comparing Aliona/Anna best scores's with Sasha's is unfair, because Sasha's best score was in the beginning of the season, with lower PCS/reputation. Aliona/Anna best scores were in Russian Nationals, which was a joke in terms of scores. So, we don't have a good parameter to perfectly compare their scores last season.
4. We can't predict many things for next season until the skaters go back (if all of them go back) to their competition shape and actually compete. What if Rika blossoms this season and beats the other girls? What if Aliona gets a 4S? What if Sasha lands all quads, improves her PCS and lands 3A in Sp? What if Anna adds another quad?
5. Sasha had higher scores than Anna during the first 2 Grand Prix events, I wouldn't be so fast to say Sasha can't beat Anna.
6. Sasha had the potential to get to 172+ points with a 4 quad layout without falls (if she hadn't fallen in Skate Canada) and that, my friends, is a HUGE score. Without 3 axel. Without improvements in PCS. I'm just saying...
7. If Sasha can beat Aliona? That's a whole other thing, and I honestly have no idea.

 

[Amei]

Conclusions:
1. I don't think Anna would have the same scores internationally as the ones she had in Russian Nationals. I can't imagine 181+ in international scene.

Not saying that score is impossible, but I rarely look at Nationals scoring for comparisons.

2. The number of quads wasn't Sasha's problem. For me, the biggest problem was the lack of consistency between the layouts she used during the season and having insisted so much on 4S. She was also learning 3A, which probably didn't leave much time to perfect 4S too. I think 4 quads is totally fine and possible for her, if she stays with 1 layout the entire season and if she improves on the rest (PCS, StSq, program, choreography -> considering it would increase her SP scores too).
6. Sasha had the potential to get to 172+ points with a 4 quad layout without falls (if she hadn't fallen in Skate Canada) and that, my friends, is a HUGE score. Without 3 axel. Without improvements in PCS. I'm just saying...

I think a lot of Trusova's problems can be summed up by her (or her parents) fixation on how she wins; she seems determined to do it by getting these 'first to do xyz' records. And her rush to be 'first' is leading to sloppiness/inconsistencies.

3. Comparing Aliona/Anna best scores's with Sasha's is unfair, because Sasha's best score was in the beginning of the season, with lower PCS/reputation. Aliona/Anna best scores were in Russian Nationals, which was a joke in terms of scores. So, we don't have a good parameter to perfectly compare their scores last season.

Trusova based on how she performed last season is going to be lower PCS marks; she doesn't focus on performance the way Shcherbakova does nor does she have the natural skating skills that Kostornaia has. Trusova focuses on jumps, my dislike of her choice in coaching situation is that I doubt he's going to do anything to dissuade her from being a jumps only skater.

4. We can't predict many things for next season until the skaters go back (if all of them go back) to their competition shape and actually compete. What if Rika blossoms this season and beats the other girls? What if Aliona gets a 4S? What if Sasha lands all quads, improves her PCS and lands 3A in Sp? What if Anna adds another quad?

Shcherbakova has said her focus is getting the triple axel because she could do it in the SP; if Trusova and her coaching team is smart about approaching competitions they should be doing the same vs. seeing how many different type of quads she can do because she can only do those in the FS and so far what we've seen from her in competitions is that she can't handle the jump-load of her desired FS.

 

[Jontor]

Conclusions:
1. I don't think Anna would have the same scores internationally as the ones she had in Russian Nationals. I can't imagine 181+ in international scene.

It is not impossible. Comparing Anna's scores between GPF and RN, there really is not much difference between them, except for 4 elements.

4F - 4.50 (fall) (GPF) - 10.06 (stepout) (RN) = +5.56. A slight negative GOE at RN but the score seems fair.
4Lz - 8.81 (UR) (GPF) - 15.94 (RN) = +7.13. No UR at RN.
3Lz+3Lo - 12.72 (GPF) - 13.82 (RN) = +1.10. This combination was much better at RN so better GOE seems fair.
PCS - 69.13 (GPF) - 73.72 (RN) = +4.59. Well, here you might argue that it was home-inflated, but keep in mind that Anna later scored 71.19 at EC with a fall.

Difference GPF vs RN = +18.38 at RN for these 4 elements. Adding that to her score at GPF would give 181.03. That still includes a stepout on the 4F. With a clean 4F you can add at least another +4 points.

It is also interesting to note that at RN Anna seemed a little bit tired at the end compared to GPF. And rightly so, RN scored her -1.29 lower for the last two elements.

So my conclusion is that Anna, with a clean skate, could easily score +180 points in the free internationally.

 

[Fried]

Shcherbakova has said her focus is getting the triple axel because she could do it in the SP; if Trusova and her coaching team is smart about approaching competitions they should be doing the same (...)

Trusova has said her focus is getting the triple axel and it would definitely come next season; if Shcherbakova and her coaching team is smart about approaching competitions they should be doing the same.

 

[Skatesocs]

What does that mean?

Ice-T? Because she's OG Nastya G! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scILa5iPBcg

 

[Resa]

so when will St Peterburg, Snow Leopards and Davidov start to train?

 

[Tolstoj]

Liza Nugumanova left Mishin some years ago. Mishin said she didn't want to work as he waited. Liza thought she is a little star. She recieved many << for her jumps in last season but very enjoyable to watch!

With Nugumanova i think someone needs to figure this out and have some serious talk, cause it's sad to see such a talent literally wasted.

I get Russia doesn't seem to care about artistry but especially in juniors she was best in skating skills, performance,... she had the ingredients to become a great star, and yet those components never rise in Russia, never, always putting far more mediocre skaters above her in components.

Yes the jumps are under often but not as much as russian judges make it seem like, i watched RN, i saw skaters with glaring underrotations getting away with it, while Nugumanova carrot cake, they nitpick a lot with her. I think if she had more opportunities to compete abroad, her scores would be much higher and russian judges would also change their mind then. And again her PCS should be at least 4-5 points higher than what she got this past season.

It's one of those examples of skaters who would probably have a much more successful career with a western coach who does notice where are her true strenghts. Similar to Kurakova now.

Mishin was arguargbly not a great coach for her cause he also really doesn't care about artistry and never improved the really strong basis she has, and both Turenko and Rukavicin mostly tried to fix her technique, i think she's slightly better now but i don't know how much this can evolve, unless some major shake up like she starts to work on 3A.

For me she has two choices to salvage this career:
1. change country and start to train abroad, working with a coach who understands where are her strenghts. (maybe Lambiel, throwing one random name)

2. move to Ice Dance or Pairs cause she has the skills, she has the personality, her twizzles are nice, she has the flow.

 

[flanker]

I get Russia doesn't seem to care about artistry

Yeah, they don't do Celine Dion programs.

 

[Tolstoj]

Yeah, they don't do Celine Dion programs.

You never even see an artist-first skaters from Russia, while you have literally dozens of only jumps skaters, stone face the whole program. Wonder why?

Cause without the jumps you never get those components, even if you are by far the best skater in terms of actual skating.

Get a consistent Lutz-Toe in the second half of the program and your PCS suddenly will rise, doesn't matter if you crawl like a crab during crossovers. Tsibinova almost got it, until she fell at Nationals.

I think that's why despite her current coach would actually be a good choice to work on both technique and artistry but because scores in Russia are soo dependant by the technical elements, jumps are always the priority.

This hurts even more in Men where Russia now has 2-3 master skaters in juniors (and to skate that good takes a lot of work and effort), but if they don't get the quads, it's pretty much guaranteed they will vanish.

 

[Scott512]

You never even see an artist-first skaters from Russia, while you have literally dozens of only jumps skaters, stone face the whole program, or spamming the exact same 4 moves. Wonder why?

Cause without the jumps you never get those components, even if you are by far the best skater in terms of actual skating.

Get a consistent Lutz-Toe in the second half of the program and your PCS suddenly will rise, doesn't matter if you crawl like a crab during crossovers. Tsibinova almost got it, until she fell at Nationals.

This hurts even more in Men where Russia now has 2-3 master skaters in juniors (and to skate that good takes a lot of work and effort), but if they don't get the quads, it's pretty much guaranteed they will vanish.

Little Liza certainly has the tiny size and skills needed for dance or pairs. She has a natural smile and charm about her as well which is very appealing. Of course it's an absolute joke with the scores she gets lowballed with in singles skating. I would hope if she made the switch that would not carry over to pairs or dance.

 

[flanker]

You never even see an artist-first skaters from Russia, while you have literally dozens of only jumps skaters, stone face the whole program, or spamming the exact same 4 moves. Wonder why?

Cause without the jumps you never get those components, even if you are by far the best skater in terms of actual skating.

Get a consistent Lutz-Toe in the second half of the program and your PCS suddenly will rise, doesn't matter if you crawl like a crab during crossovers. Tsibinova almost got it, until she fell at Nationals.

This hurts even more in Men where Russia now has 2-3 master skaters in juniors (and to skate that good takes a lot of work and effort), but if they don't get the quads, it's pretty much guaranteed they will vanish.

So called "artist-first skater" is probably a code name for the skaters "I can't do a clean 3-3 combo but I skate to a nice and slow music so give me all the components".

Now seriously, what particular people often call artistry is just like the painter who paints all those pictures of popular destinations for tourists. It's nice, non-offensive and he does it 20 times a day.

 

[Skatesocs]

Now seriously, what particular people often call artistry is just like the painter who paints all those pictures of popular destinations for tourists. It's nice, non-offensive and he does it 20 times a day.

I agree this is true now. That seems literally the only reason why American ladies these past two quads are called "artists". I do think some Japan ladies should be outscoring all the Russians on PCS, but otherwise meh.

 

[JazzUp]

We finally find out who these "best foreign and Russian choreographers", that Plyushenko promised to find for Sasha in May, are in his latest interview ! They are - tada! - Sergey Rozanov.