2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[flanker]

To be fair, its probably not possible to travel to most of the destinations with great choreographers. Even most rinks in Russia don't seem to have opened yet, so they couldn't even go to Averbukh.

But I don't think we have a situation "yesterday was late" as for the programs themselves. After all, those first weeks of training are probably dedicated to gain consistency and form back. Jumping 3-3 combo or a quad in a first week is impressive of course, but I bet there has to be time before doing the whole program at once or learning the new one (I mean everywhere, not just with Angels). So if there were true plans to hire somebody renowned, there was still time.

 

[Fried]

Plyushenko could've also tried not to brag too much, but that would be hoping for something nearly impossible

One should not ask for the impossible, but adjust to the circumstances. You also don't get upset about radio commercials every day. I am just happy to see a cell phone video sometimes and I pray that the work will otherwise bear fruit and Sasha will not be injured. Nobody knows whether the interplay works and an interview does not reveal anything about it. No matter whether it is boastful or serious. It is always only one version for the public. The departure of Trusova from TT is the best proof. Let's keep our fingers crossed for Sasha.

 

[Tolstoj]

So called "artist-first skater" is probably a code name for the skaters "I can't do a clean 3-3 combo but I skate to a nice and slow music so give me all the components".

Lol

Skating skills, performance, interpretation are NOT and should NOT depend on your jumping skills. You can have quads or single jumps and it should not matter, it really shouldn't.

If you know the rules and you have an unbiased eye, i think everyone should distinguish clearly good skating from bad skating regardless of jumps, and no American ladies are not always artists by default.

I did notice tho that they often continue to work on skating skills even after transitioning into seniors, while the russians have a really strong preparation up until novice-juniors and then it's like they completely stop working and improving on certain aspects to focus on the jumps.

 

[AshWagsFan]

Lol

Skating skills, performance, interpretation are NOT and should NOT depend on your jumping skills. You can have quads or single jumps and it should not matter, it really shouldn't.

If you know the rules and you have an unbiased eye, i think everyone should distinguish clearly good skating from bad skating regardless of jumps, and no American ladies are not always artists by default.

I did notice tho that they often continue to work on skating skills even after transitioning into seniors, while the russians have a really strong preparation up until novice-juniors and then it's like they completely stop working and improving on certain aspects to focus on the jumps.

I 100% agree with this. There are some skaters who are both great artists and great technicians (Kostornaia, Mao, Yuna). There are some skaters who are known for their great jumps (Trusova, Midori, Tonya). There are some skaters who are known for their artistry (Kostner, Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen). It doesn’t depend on a country, and it doesn’t necessarily mean that skaters with good artistry cannot jump, or great jumpers cannot have good artistry and components!

All of these aspects of skating take a lot of work, and are equally difficult to do. That is why this sport is so challenging, it’s meant to be a balance between athleticism and artistry! If a program is just jump jump jump, why should that skater be given good components unless they deserve them! And if a skater has a beautiful program but has jump issues, they should not be bumped up in the tech score because they have great projection and skating skills!

 

[Skatesocs]

Lol

Skating skills, performance, interpretation are NOT and should NOT depend on your jumping skills. You can have quads or single jumps and it should not matter, it really shouldn't.

If you know the rules and you have an unbiased eye, i think everyone should distinguish clearly good skating from bad skating regardless of jumps, and no American ladies are not always artists by default.

I did notice tho that they often continue to work on skating skills even after transitioning into seniors, while the russians have a really strong preparation up until novice-juniors and then it's like they completely stop working and improving on certain aspects to focus on the jumps.

I agree SS shouldn't. Performance/Interpretation could.

I agree not all Americans are automatically artists. Can't say everyone would agree with us, though.

I don't see how Russian ladies don't work on SS after transitioning to seniors - although it's not to the extent I'd like to see.

 

[eterislouisvuitton]

What I hoped wouldn't happen with Trusova seems to be happening in front of our eyes. Now before you all come for me this is just my opinion and interpretation, you are entitled to yours and please be respectful.

In the first days of training, Plushenko is so happy with the results. Posting videos of his new students, happy and successful. Gloats about them to the media, how hardworking and pleasant they are, how bright the prospects are. But eventually challenges will arise, and once they do the student in the media turns to lazy, temper filled, fat, not motivated. And the next one is the hardworking one that everyone should look up to.

We'll see at the open test skates!

Speaking of which, now that Vasilieva has moved to pairs, redistribution of GP spots:

Tier 1: these skaters don't go up against each other
Aleksandra Trusova, 15, Plushenko, 2
Anna Shcherbakova, 16, Eteri, 2
Alena Kostornaia, 16, Eteri, 2

Tier 2: these skaters are paired with one from tier 1 and one from tier 3 but not against each other
Alina Zagitova, 18, Eteri, 2 (may not participate)
Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, 23, Mishin, 2
Evgenia Medvedeva, 20, Orser, 2

Tier 3: these skaters are sprinkled throughout wherever there are holes
Ksenia Sinitsyna, 16, Panova, 2, (bump up if Zagitova WD)
Sofia Samodurova, 17, Mishin, 2
Anastasia Gubanova, 17, Rukavitsin, 1
Anastasia Guliakova, 18, Mishin, host pick

Alternates: Anastasia Tarakanova, Ksenia Tsibinova, Elizaveta Nugumanova, Serafima Sakhanovich, Maria Talalaikina, Valeria Shulskaya

 

[flanker]

Lol

Skating skills, performance, interpretation are NOT and should NOT depend on your jumping skills. You can have quads or single jumps and it should not matter, it really shouldn't.

If you know the rules and you have an unbiased eye, i think everyone should distinguish clearly good skating from bad skating regardless of jumps, and no American ladies are not always artists by default.

I did notice tho that they often continue to work on skating skills even after transitioning into seniors, while the russians have a really strong preparation up until novice-juniors and then it's like they completely stop working and improving on certain aspects to focus on the jumps.

You can hardly do jumps without adequate skating skills, being able to accelerate into the jump, land it and exit in edge depends on them. The same with transitions, if you do not need full length of the ice rink to prepare for the jump and you can allow yourself to fill it with content and choreography, you are not weak in components. And components are always connected with the cleanness of the performance.

But you were talking about "artistry" originally, not about particular components. And components are not completely the same as "artistry". I have said it several times and I'm saying it now, I don't see active particular skaters from elsewhere, whose level of "artistry" would be somehow above the top russian ladies, at least from the point of what I see as an artistic performance. That what is labeled as artistic with US or japanese ladies are usually only two types of the programs:

1. slow nice popular music, e.g. my favourite :sarcasm: Celine Dion, maybe in better case some tender (piano) music with japanese ladies (as I've called those programs once "ode to a white flower that burst into a bloom in my secret garden during the moonlit night").
2. flirtatious show on the ice.

Though, I admit, there is the third type of the program now:

3. fighting program, like on Matrix theme and similar.

And who does not fit into some of those boxes fully (=is not not corresponding with the average fan's taste), he is often labeled as "not having artistry". :handw:

While I can see very good interpretation skills with many russian skaters, transitions are on the best level, in skating skills some japanese ladies are on par but I can't say it about many US/canadian skaters. To be honest about no one. And, to be honest, even with skaters like Carolina Kostner, the artistic convincingness of the program depended strongly on the technical performance. Because you can be artistic to heavens, but when you fall/stumble/touch the ice five times in the program, the artistic impression is gone for me.

 

[Skatesocs]

Agree about Kostner!

 

[Mawwerg]

Actually I believe all technical elements are components of a skater's program.

 

[Amei]

What I hoped wouldn't happen with Trusova seems to be happening in front of our eyes. Now before you all come for me this is just my opinion and interpretation, you are entitled to yours and please be respectful.

In the first days of training, Plushenko is so happy with the results. Posting videos of his new students, happy and successful. Gloats about them to the media, how hardworking and pleasant they are, how bright the prospects are. But eventually challenges will arise, and once they do the student in the media turns to lazy, temper filled, fat, not motivated. And the next one is the hardworking one that everyone should look up to.

I'm not the world's biggest fan of Coach Plushenko, but it's not like he's exploring uncharted territory. Team Eteri isn't shy about posting successes on social media, nor is it out of the norm that a skater starts to struggle or leaves Eteri is then negatively discussed in the media.

 

[dunffvanstorn]

Actually I believe all technical elements are components of a skater's program.

You seem to believe “we’re all winners”,


Enviado do meu iPhone usando Tapatalk

 

[starlight97]

I did notice tho that they often continue to work on skating skills even after transitioning into seniors, while the russians have a really strong preparation up until novice-juniors and then it's like they completely stop working and improving on certain aspects to focus on the jumps.

Because un the US with a 3F-3T as your hardest element and some nice gliding and edges and all the things people who obsess over components like to talk about, you can be national champion and be sent to 3 consecutive Olympics.
The national champions of other countries would get crushed at Russian nationals.

These girls don't focus on jumps and "neglect" SS because they feel like it, they have no other choice. If you want to go to Europeans and Worlds these days in Russia a 3Lz-3Lo is old news. You need to bring ultrac.

Alena has the best SS of the current ladies field and had she not gotten that 3A she would have been left behind.
Being able to spend your training time to work on gliding around is a certain luxury.

 

[JazzUp]

If you know the rules and you have an unbiased eye

...the russians completely stop working and improving on certain aspects to focus on the jumps.

great example of an "unbiased eye", by the way.

Lol

 

[Spirals for Miles]

What I hoped wouldn't happen with Trusova seems to be happening in front of our eyes. Now before you all come for me this is just my opinion and interpretation, you are entitled to yours and please be respectful.

In the first days of training, Plushenko is so happy with the results. Posting videos of his new students, happy and successful. Gloats about them to the media, how hardworking and pleasant they are, how bright the prospects are. But eventually challenges will arise, and once they do the student in the media turns to lazy, temper filled, fat, not motivated. And the next one is the hardworking one that everyone should look up to.

We'll see at the open test skates!

Speaking of which, now that Vasilieva has moved to pairs, redistribution of GP spots:

Tier 1: these skaters don't go up against each other
Aleksandra Trusova, 15, Plushenko, 2
Anna Shcherbakova, 16, Eteri, 2
Alena Kostornaia, 16, Eteri, 2

Tier 2: these skaters are paired with one from tier 1 and one from tier 3 but not against each other
Alina Zagitova, 18, Eteri, 2 (may not participate)
Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, 23, Mishin, 2
Evgenia Medvedeva, 20, Orser, 2

Tier 3: these skaters are sprinkled throughout wherever there are holes
Ksenia Sinitsyna, 16, Panova, 2, (bump up if Zagitova WD)
Sofia Samodurova, 17, Mishin, 2
Anastasia Gubanova, 17, Rukavitsin, 1
Anastasia Guliakova, 18, Mishin, host pick

Alternates: Anastasia Tarakanova, Ksenia Tsibinova, Elizaveta Nugumanova, Serafima Sakhanovich, Maria Talalaikina, Valeria Shulskaya

As Gubanova doesn't have a SB and is currently ranked 113 in WS, I don't think she'd get a spot. I think it's more likely the spot goes to either Tarakanova (SB 25) or Konstantinova (WS 25).

 

[Jontor]

As Gubanova doesn't have a SB and is currently ranked 113 in WS, I don't think she'd get a spot. I think it's more likely the spot goes to either Tarakanova (SB 25) or Konstantinova (WS 25).

You beat me to it SpfM. But I was just going to say the same. My bet is on Konstantinova.

 

[flanker]

As Gubanova doesn't have a SB and is currently ranked 113 in WS, I don't think she'd get a spot. I think it's more likely the spot goes to either Tarakanova (SB 25) or Konstantinova (WS 25).

You beat me to it SpfM. But I was just going to say the same. My bet is on Konstantinova.

Would love to see both, but if I had to choose, I would vote for Nastya.

 

[Shayuki]

what? Sasha was just off the ice for 2 months and landing a "terrible" 4lz her first week back is a downgrade? yes it was obviously a bit UR, but what the heck do you expect from her? that's amazing to do in your first week back on the ice and goes to show how resilient she is.

Seems like you completely missed the point. My point is that I wouldn't post it in such a condition or pretend that it's a good 4Lutz. In general, it's a criticism of Plushenko(for posting a video of it), not Trusova.

And that 4Lz wasn't too much URed. Definitely not downgraded nor two-footed. It looked more like Yerevan's jump.

Why do people make such obviously faulty statements without even watching the jumps frame by frame? Do that and you'll see it's borderline downgraded.

I did notice tho that they often continue to work on skating skills even after transitioning into seniors, while the russians have a really strong preparation up until novice-juniors and then it's like they completely stop working and improving on certain aspects to focus on the jumps.

Well first off, let's start with saying that this is incorrect.

However, you then must take into accounts that the Russian skaters don't have the luxury of focusing on skating skills or whatever else they enjoy, like American ones might. Russian skaters face serious competition, and if their competitors have quads and 3As, the Russian skater hardly can focus fully on her skating skills or she'll be off the national team.

 

[Tolstoj]

Because un the US with a 3F-3T as your hardest element and some nice gliding and edges and all the things people who obsess over components like to talk about, you can be national champion and be sent to 3 consecutive Olympics.
The national champions of other countries would get crushed at Russian nationals.

These girls don't focus on jumps and "neglect" SS because they feel like it, they have no other choice. If you want to go to Europeans and Worlds these days in Russia a 3Lz-3Lo is old news. You need to bring ultrac.

Alena has the best SS of the current ladies field and had she not gotten that 3A she would have been left behind.
Being able to spend your training time to work on gliding around is a certain luxury.

That is true and i even said that i think a lot of it comes from the particular russian judging at domestic competitions which is literally ALL about the jumps and the technical difficulty, so for russian coaches it makes more sense to focus on jumps.

And to be fair it's a smart strategy for Russia as well cause even at international competitions you can make up components, with sudden rise to an 8 or 9 if you show consistency throughout the season, while you can't make up TES the same way, at a certain point you need the difficulty to keep that score high.

On Alena it's interesting you say that cause don't you feel she is the exception rather than the norm? She came with exceptional basis but can you say even her teammates have the same great foundation? it does seem like she is several steps above the rest and again if you look at her career she joined Sambo70 with those SS already, shout out to her previous coach really for spending the time.

You can hardly do jumps without adequate skating skills, being able to accelerate into the jump, land it and exit in edge depends on them. The same with transitions, if you do not need full length of the ice rink to prepare for the jump and you can allow yourself to fill it with content and choreography, you are not weak in components. And components are always connected with the cleanness of the performance.

I do agree with this but apparently ISU don't, considering they give season bests in components, including in performance even with a program that has a fall and the previous competitions were clean (Shcherbakova's FS at GPF for instance but there are dozens of others i could have picked)

I complained about PCS not properly reflecting falls for ages here, probably since i joined the forum, so in reality components are not really connected with the cleanness of the performance.

While I can see very good interpretation skills with many russian skaters, transitions are on the best level, in skating skills some japanese ladies are on par but I can't say it about many US/canadian skaters. To be honest about no one. And, to be honest, even with skaters like Carolina Kostner, the artistic convincingness of the program depended strongly on the technical performance. Because you can be artistic to heavens, but when you fall/stumble/touch the ice five times in the program, the artistic impression is gone for me.

That's true but are they purposeful with the music or just transitions for the sake of adding as many as transitions as you can? if it is not timed with the music, it almost becomes like circus, winner is the one who shows more tricks that way.

And is it really worth adding transitions when a position is held for less than 3 seconds or is on a bouncy shaky edge? Probably GOE should reflect that, should in theory.

There are all very good questions always worth asking.

 

[starlight97]

That is true and i even said that i think a lot of it comes from the particular russian judging at domestic competitions which is literally ALL about the jumps and the technical difficulty, so for russian coaches it makes more sense to focus on jumps.

And to be fair it's a smart strategy for Russia as well cause even at international competitions you can make up components, with sudden rise to an 8 or 9 if you show consistency throughout the season, while you can't make up TES the same way, at a certain point you need the difficulty to keep that score high.

On Alena it's interesting you say that cause don't you feel she is the exception rather than the norm? She came with exceptional basis but can you say even her teammates have the same great foundation? it does seem like she is several steps above the rest and again if you look at her career she joined Sambo70 with those SS already, shout out to her previous coach really for spending the time.
.

I don't think it's the Russian system's issue. The Russians are just the best at navigating the system of figure skating that exists today. They see what scores the highest- that's what they teach their athletes. Very simple and logical and what is done in any other sport.
It's like the people who complain about Simone Biles not doing graceful dance movements in her gymnastics that they would do in the 1990s. Well, times have changed and with changed I mean advanced.

About Alena, yes, she is an exception. But not just in that group, I'd say in skating in general.
While people like to make it seem like everyone outside of Russia are these amazing artists and component skaters, I can't see any of that. Most skaters are just average in that department and then there are a few who stand out, like Yuna Kim, Kostner and in my humble opinion, now Alena is on that path.

Btw I don't think it's really that much about how well she was or wasn't taught. Some things are just talent.
I'm a ballet dancer/teacher to kids, and when we learn the basic arm and hand movements some girls just get it naturally. Others can spend weeks practicing but it will never look as it did for some girls on the first try.

 

[AshWagsFan]

You can hardly do jumps without adequate skating skills, being able to accelerate into the jump, land it and exit in edge depends on them. The same with transitions, if you do not need full length of the ice rink to prepare for the jump and you can allow yourself to fill it with content and choreography, you are not weak in components. And components are always connected with the cleanness of the performance.

But you were talking about "artistry" originally, not about particular components. And components are not completely the same as "artistry". I have said it several times and I'm saying it now, I don't see active particular skaters from elsewhere, whose level of "artistry" would be somehow above the top russian ladies, at least from the point of what I see as an artistic performance. That what is labeled as artistic with US or japanese ladies are usually only two types of the programs:

1. slow nice popular music, e.g. my favourite :sarcasm: Celine Dion, maybe in better case some tender (piano) music with japanese ladies (as I've called those programs once "ode to a white flower that burst into a bloom in my secret garden during the moonlit night").
2. flirtatious show on the ice.

Though, I admit, there is the third type of the program now:

3. fighting program, like on Matrix theme and similar.

And who does not fit into some of those boxes fully (=is not not corresponding with the average fan's taste), he is often labeled as "not having artistry". :handw:

While I can see very good interpretation skills with many russian skaters, transitions are on the best level, in skating skills some japanese ladies are on par but I can't say it about many US/canadian skaters. To be honest about no one. And, to be honest, even with skaters like Carolina Kostner, the artistic convincingness of the program depended strongly on the technical performance. Because you can be artistic to heavens, but when you fall/stumble/touch the ice five times in the program, the artistic impression is gone for me.

I think PCS scores should be judged based on how the skater did (as you said with Kostner - missing the jumps doesn’t exactly mean you’re performance was off the charts in PCS). However, skating skills and transitions aside, part of the PCS score is based on interpretation of music, program composition, and performance execution. Thus, “artistry” of some kind is needed, whether you prefer the program or not!

I don’t think that a skater with a Celine Dion program Or a flirtatious program means they deserve high PCS scores. That being said, I can’t deny enjoying some of their programs! I’d prefer Ashley Wagner’s Sweet Dreams program any day over Trusova’s Game of Thrones program because Ashley’s charisma, ability to perform, and ability to project to an audience captivated me. I think this is where judges give skaters with those type of programs higher PCS scores, as judges are members of the audience! But, like you said, the Russians that aren’t as “artistic” in that sense can easily combat that “performance charisma” with their speed, transitions, and, of course, amazing jumps and spins, which also excite the audience!

This is why skaters like Kostornaia are so hard to beat. She has it all! She has difficult jumps, amazing skating skills and transitions, and a performance ability that is off the charts!

Edit: I would only prefer Ashley’s program on a performance level, Trusova’s quads crush Ashley technically