The Tutberidze Effect

[silveruskate]

He-he, it would be weird if the girls you've mentioned wouldn't improve their technique at all after a few years of hard work. Nevertheless, I wouldn't be so confident about Alina's double axel, it still looks quite unstable and "by-the-breadth-of-a-hair" to me. Pretty much similar to the one Medvedeva did in the '17-18 season, lacking height and power.

First you say that Eteri doesn't have the time, which according to you is necessary to correct individual technique flaws of skaters, and then you have examples given of technique flaws being improved and you say the skater just improved it themselves from their own hard work?

 

[Scott512]

Nuss came up with the best example of how skaters can excel so fast in TT. That was Aliona 17th at Russian Junior Nationals and then less than a year later third Russian senior Nationals. The Improvement when she got to TT was meteoric. Aliona certainly got what she went for to eteri that's for sure.

 

[ginglinicecubes]

First you say that Eteri doesn't have the time, which according to you is necessary to correct individual technique flaws of skaters, and then you have examples given of technique flaws being improved and you say the skater just improved it themselves from their own hard work?

Eteri has had other coaches to work on the technique for quite a while.

Your comment has yet again made me think about Anna Scherbakova's lutz. It's prerotated, and it's a flutz, and I don't think the team is unaware of that. But why? Because Anna was taught the wrong way from the beginning in order to help her catch up with Trusova as quickly as possible? Or maybe because they don't want to correct it thinking that this jump is still enough for her to be on top of the game? Or because Anna isn't hardworking enough to improve? Well, I doubt the latter.

 

[ginglinicecubes]

Nuss came up with the best example of how skaters can excel so fast in TT. That was Aliona 17th at Russian Junior Nationals and then less than a year later third Russian senior Nationals. The Improvement when she got to TT was meteoric. Aliona certainly got what she went for to eteri that's for sure.

This is Aliona about two years before moving to Tutberidze, take a look https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T8fb6evwbA Not really bad for a 12-year old, though the artistry was rather poor.
Now, about two years later, and probably right before the move: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBVlFcippwk - very poor, and that's when she came 16th. But she definitely knew how to do these jumps, so something must have gone wrong between these two performances, which, as the Wikipedia states, was the main cause of transferring to TT. So basically Aliona had pretty good basic skills

 

[readernick]

Honestly, looking at the videos of Aliona, I think all the qualities that people love were already present prior to moving to Eteri. What she didn't have was consistency. I think this is what Eteri almost always provides her students consistency in competition. All Eteri's students have different jump technique ( which is normal since most have learned all triples before moving to Eteri), but something about her method or the training environment really seems to help her students become better competitors. I think the team also helps to tighten up rotation, which in turn makes the jumps more stable.

 

[Scott512]

This is Aliona about two years before moving to Tutberidze, take a look https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T8fb6evwbA Not really bad for a 12-year old, though the artistry was rather poor.
Now, about two years later, and probably right before the move: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBVlFcippwk - very poor, and that's when she came 16th. But she definitely knew how to do these jumps, so something must have gone wrong between these two performances, which, as the Wikipedia states, was the main cause of transferring to TT. So basically Aliona had pretty good basic skills

Thank you for the videos. That was a very interesting look back at what aliona used to be before EG. My what's the difference 3 years with a great coach makes. she went from a nondescript pretty good novice and Junior skater to the best skater in ladies figure skating this past season her debut season.

Reader no doubt one of EGs greatest attributes is for her skaters becoming so consistent compared to what they were before. And that enables all their other qualities as a skater to become more consistent which is why their scores get so high.

 

[colormyworld240]

Eteri's biggest "miracles" were Alina and Alena. Both were performing poorly before going to her, and neither were skaters you would've looked at twice. Actually, both of them were so far behind the more promising novices and juniors at the time, who they would eventually overtake by a large margin. They both had a mixture of inconsistency, small underrotated jumps, poor choreography and packaging, and the federation didn't even consider them for test skates - Alina actually didn't qualify for international events her first junior season, and Alena almost didn't (she wasn't on the JGP entry list and was only given one of the last spots after a cup even, IIRC). And then somehow, by their first international season, they both did extremely well, it just clicked for them. Their jumps were not only more consistent but bigger, their layouts had much more difficulty, and their spins were also much better.

On the other hand, Sasha and Anastasia Tarakanova were already stars before they came to Eteri; Sasha for her jumping ability even without quads, and Nastia for her skating skills. Same with Valieva.

Yulia, Evgenia, and Anna were all well known before they made their international debut; it was expected that they'd do well. The biggest surprises were Alina and Alena, the stars definitely aligned for them and they definitely came out of nowhere.

 

[colormyworld240]

Honestly, looking at the videos of Aliona, I think all the qualities that people love were already present prior to moving to Eteri. What she didn't have was consistency. I think this is what Eteri almost always provides her students consistency in competition. All Eteri's students have different jump technique ( which is normal since most have learned all triples before moving to Eteri), but something about her method or the training environment really seems to help her students become better competitors. I think the team also helps to tighten up rotation, which in turn makes the jumps more stable.

I think Alena's jumps got much bigger after moving to Eteri, and the spins were much more centred. Much like Alina's improvements (see post above). Interestingly enough, I don't think either of them have the tightest air position, so that seems like an area that the team wasn't able to fix. Yulia, Evgenia, and Anna who were with Eteri's team for a very long time do have better air position, so maybe this is something that has to be learned in the beginning.

 

[flanker]

Eteri's biggest "miracles" were Alina and Alena. Both were performing poorly before going to her, and neither were skaters you would've looked at twice. Actually, both of them were so far behind the more promising novices and juniors at the time, who they would eventually overtake by a large margin. They both had a mixture of inconsistency, small underrotated jumps, poor choreography and packaging, and the federation didn't even consider them for test skates - Alina actually didn't qualify for international events her first junior season, and Alena almost didn't (she wasn't on the JGP entry list and was only given one of the last spots after a cup even, IIRC). And then somehow, by their first international season, they both did extremely well, it just clicked for them. Their jumps were not only more consistent but bigger, their layouts had much more difficulty, and their spins were also much better.

On the other hand, Sasha and Anastasia Tarakanova were already stars before they came to Eteri; Sasha for her jumping ability even without quads, and Nastia for her skating skills. Same with Valieva.

Yulia, Evgenia, and Anna were all well known before they made their international debut; it was expected that they'd do well. The biggest surprises were Alina and Alena, the stars definitely aligned for them and they definitely came out of nowhere.

If we talk about big ("miraculous") improvements, we could add Daria Usacheva. She didn't win big competition yet, but she improved vastly during the season. From unstable jumps and stigma "this generation isn't so strong as 3A" or "Russia will be glad for one medal at junior worlds" to stable and emotional skater, her last three performances (junior nationals, junior worlds and spartakiada) were close to perfection, at the end she outperformed even Alysa Liu. There are other examples of significant improvement, like Maiia, even though they are not considered "miracles" (yet ).

 

[Skatesocs]

I do not agree that Eteri imparts only consistency to her students. There's almost a maddening confidence and fight to her skaters despite all the flailing. I'm not sure where this comes from. Kostornaia before and after Eteri is clearly more confident (partly due to age, but not exclusively).

 

[Scott512]

I do not agree that Eteri imparts only consistency to her students. There's almost a maddening confidence and fight to her skaters despite all the flailing. I'm not sure where this comes from. Kostornaia before and after Eteri is clearly more confident (partly due to age, but not exclusively).

It is true that her top girls seem to have massive confidence while performing for TT. We will see if Sasha and Aliona lose some of that confidence now that they're gone.

Color those were int were testing comments about what a difference Eteri made for Alina and Alena. Inside of a year at TT aliona became so good so fast it was mind-blowing. It took Alina a little bit longer to become great but she sure did.

 

[bramweld]

All this does not negate the fact that if the girl is not comfortable with ET, please just allow her to leave.

ET was unavoidably absent for a long time during COVID so in all honesty probably AK had no plans to leave but something broke the camel's back. I respect the fact that she's gone high when everyone seems to be going low.

 

[Skatesocs]

All this does not negate the fact that if the girl is not comfortable with ET, please just allow her to leave.

was someone opposing this on the forum?

 

[colormyworld240]

If we talk about big ("miraculous") improvements, we could add Daria Usacheva. She didn't win big competition yet, but she improved vastly during the season. From unstable jumps and stigma "this generation isn't so strong as 3A" or "Russia will be glad for one medal at junior worlds" to stable and emotional skater, her last three performances (junior nationals, junior worlds and spartakiada) were close to perfection, at the end she outperformed even Alysa Liu. There are other examples of significant improvement, like Maiia, even though they are not considered "miracles" (yet ).

I disagree here, I don't think Daria is on the level of Alina or Alena their first junior season; yes she got a silver medal at JWs but Alena/Alena were consistently winning over the entire season. While the medal at JWs was impressive, especially against Alysa who had quads and 3As, we haven't seen if she can put out skates like those consistently, where as the former two did.

But regarding her skating itself, I do think she's an emotional skater but personally I don't find her that special. She doesn't have a standout element , incredible skating skills/musicality, extreme flexibility, consistency (pretty much all of the other Eteri skaters minus Maiia) etc. and her layout is just average - many skaters have been doing that. I would just describe her as good. And I just don't think I enjoy Maiia's skating, even if she can land the quad. But for the Russian junior ladies I really enjoy Kamila so any skater would pale in comparison, I guess. As for "this generation isn't as strong as 3A", I agree and would even go farther and say that apart from Kamila, the other girls are not as strong as the previous stars in Eteri's camp (Evgenia/Alina/Sasha/Alena/Anna). But, I think Kamila does have all the good qualities of the other skaters; she's strong in all areas and that's exciting.

 

[Azikin]

I disagree here, I don't think Daria is on the level of Alina or Alena their first junior season; yes she got a silver medal at JWs but Alena/Alena were consistently winning over the entire season. While the medal at JWs was impressive, especially against Alysa who had quads and 3As, we haven't seen if she can put out skates like those consistently, where as the former two did.

But regarding her skating itself, I do think she's an emotional skater but personally I don't find her that special. She doesn't have a standout element , incredible skating skills/musicality, extreme flexibility, consistency (pretty much all of the other Eteri skaters minus Maiia) etc. and her layout is just average - many skaters have been doing that. I would just describe her as good. And I just don't think I enjoy Maiia's skating, even if she can land the quad. But for the Russian junior ladies I really enjoy Kamila so any skater would pale in comparison, I guess. As for "this generation isn't as strong as 3A", I agree and would even go farther and say that apart from Kamila, the other girls are not as strong as the previous stars in Eteri's camp (Evgenia/Alina/Sasha/Alena/Anna). But, I think Kamila does have all the good qualities of the other skaters; she's strong in all areas and that's exciting.

And I disagree with pretty much your whole post but just one point - I don't see where Flanker was saying that Daria is on the level of Alina or Alena, we probably read a different post.

 

[flanker]

I disagree here, I don't think Daria is on the level of Alina or Alena their first junior season; yes she got a silver medal at JWs but Alena/Alena were consistently winning over the entire season. While the medal at JWs was impressive, especially against Alysa who had quads and 3As, we haven't seen if she can put out skates like those consistently, where as the former two did.

But regarding her skating itself, I do think she's an emotional skater but personally I don't find her that special. She doesn't have a standout element , incredible skating skills/musicality, extreme flexibility, consistency (pretty much all of the other Eteri skaters minus Maiia) etc. and her layout is just average - many skaters have been doing that. I would just describe her as good. And I just don't think I enjoy Maiia's skating, even if she can land the quad. But for the Russian junior ladies I really enjoy Kamila so any skater would pale in comparison, I guess. As for "this generation isn't as strong as 3A", I agree and would even go farther and say that apart from Kamila, the other girls are not as strong as the previous stars in Eteri's camp (Evgenia/Alina/Sasha/Alena/Anna). But, I think Kamila does have all the good qualities of the other skaters; she's strong in all areas and that's exciting.

It is not exact comparison, because the scoring system has changed, but if you look at the scores for orientation, I don't think it's that different if we compare Daria and Aliona's first junior season at international events.

event/Aliona/Daria
1st JGP/197.91/194.40
2nd JGP/192.15/197.19
JGPF/204.58/200.37
WJC/207.39/207.94

As for the "constant winning", it's relative, because the competitors became much stronger. Alysa and the korean girls were much stronger rivals than Aliona/Sasha met (Rika wasn't strong enough in her 2nd junior season). And I repeat, it's just for orientation. As Azikin has mentioned, my point wasn't direct comparison, but the improvement of Daria's skating, incl. consistency, where she at the end defeated everyone (but Kamila) who previously defeated her.

Whether someone personally enjoys particular skater's skating it's of course a different question.

 

[Scott512]

All this does not negate the fact that if the girl is not comfortable with ET, please just allow her to leave.

ET was unavoidably absent for a long time during COVID so in all honesty probably AK had no plans to leave but something broke the camel's back. I respect the fact that she's gone high when everyone seems to be going low.

Absent during covid? Yes they were but they couldn't train or coach their pupils anyway because they couldn't get together for a few months. One of the issues had to be Eyeri has so many girls to pay attention to that some of them want and need more attention personally.

Evidently AK had plans to leave in May and then changed her mind. I've never seen a skater have a brilliant debut season that was almost perfect and then leave that coach. But the pandemic changed everything and some say Aliona lost her triple axel and hasn't gotten it back yet. That may be what broke the camel's back along with young Sergei leaving for Plushenko Academy. I enjoy watching her skate more than anyone so I hope this surprising coaching change works out for her because Aliona is something special.

No one knows what's going to happen this season it's going to be a limited abnormal season.

 

[vorravorra]

It is true that her top girls seem to have massive confidence while performing for TT. We will see if Sasha and Aliona lose some of that confidence now that they're gone.

Color those were int were testing comments about what a difference Eteri made for Alina and Alena. Inside of a year at TT aliona became so good so fast it was mind-blowing. It took Alina a little bit longer to become great but she sure did.

Sasha was already losing her confidence under Eteri, I think it was one of the reasons for leaving.

 

[Scott512]

Sasha was already losing her confidence under Eteri, I think it was one of the reasons for leaving.

The reality is Sasha did not want to listen to her coaches who wanted her to do the three quads in the free skate instead of five. Once the results of Anna and aliona got slightly better than Sasha and Sasha ended up with one bronze medal at GPF that she wanted to make a change. What? To learn of this is shocking when she was the best Junior girl ever under this coach and dominated her two Grand Prix events with ease under this coach and looks like the clear favorite for the Olympic gold medal in Beijing in 2022. Then she gets a bronze or two and wants to leave. We all know she had a real chance at a world championship gold medal but the pandemic changed things. If she won World gold she would not have left TT. Then aliona got The Seven Year Itch in less than 4 years and left TT as well and that was even more shocking because she had almost a perfect debut season. Again the pandemic changed everything for Aliona. She didn't skate for months and she lost her jumps including her glorious triple axel and one of her favorite specialist coaches went to the plushenko academy and that opened the door for her wanting to leave this well.

Good luck to the girls because they're such great credits for their sport. Tough breaks for TT because if the pandemic never happened both would probably still be there. Certainly Aliona would be because she never would have lost her jumps. Now TT will not dominate like they did this past season because the Dynasty is broken. But that's Sports and that's life.

 

[Scott512]

I still think Sasha is one of the favorites for gold in the next Winter Olympics. If she can master doing three or four quads in the free skate cleanly she wins. I hope her new coaches play it smart and don't start her out with five quads with her new free skate of Romeo and Juliet. I would start with three witches what TT really wanted and then grow it to four and then that could make her virtually unbeatable.