The Tutberidze Effect

Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Excuse me, but shouldn't this thread be named "The Tutberidze Defect"?

Edwin started this thread doubt he will change the name. But you have a point. Losing young Sergei had major ripple effects and led to Sasha Veronika and Sasha leaving Eteri for Plushenko. Unreal! I thought TT ladies would stay together until the 2022 winter games were done then all hell would break lose. But I was off by 2 years.
 

VenusHalley

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 6, 2018
So what is Tutberidze effect? That her pupils will eventually leave and get dragged in mud for leaving?
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
So what is Tutberidze effect? That her pupils will eventually leave and get dragged in mud for leaving?
It's the effect of taking skaters from nothing and making them into great skaters and then having them pilfered from her with promises of grandeur and money that EG can not promise. But she can supply the wins and gold medals and that should count for something. It used to.
Tutberidze effect is honestly driving site traffic to GS.

It's not the way she wants to drive traffic to Golden Skate. ;)
 

ginglinicecubes

Spectator
Joined
Aug 11, 2020
Hi everyone,
This is the first time I'm replying to a post here, but I've been reading the forums for a while.
So, as far as I can know, the basic idea of the so-called Tutberidze methods is actually the way the whole system works and the fact that there are dozens of really talented skaters who can always take your spot in case you aren't compliant with the requirements set by TT. And obviously, there are way too many talented female skaters in Russia and in TT as well. As a result, each of her students has to do whatever they can to keep competing at the national level and making the team for the Worlds or the Olympics. Thus the fact that the students come and go shouldn't hurt the Khrustalny team much, as they always get the cream. Consequently, Eteri probably has no interest, enthusiasm or time, which would be necessary to correct individual technique flaws or to look for new ideas in choreography and/or artistry, or maybe to take proper care of each athlete's health. If you ask me, considering the number of athletes contributing to the overall team performance, it's even impossible to pay enough attention to their individual needs equally.
What's more, the fact that Eteri has enough influence both on the Russian skating fed and on the ISU makes it extremely challenging for a whole bunch of other coaches such as Mishin, Panova, Volchkova-Butsaeva or Buyanova and their students to achieve much.
To sum up, basically, a lot of talented young ladies have been and will be hurt by this situation, and a lot of coaches as well.
 
Last edited:

el henry

Fangirl of men’s spirals and split jumps
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Hi everyone,
This is the first time I'm replying to a post here, but I've been reading the forums for a while.
So, as far as I can know, the basic idea of the so-called Tutberidze methods is actually the way the whole system works and the fact that there are dozens of really talented skaters who can always take your spot in case you aren't compliant with the requirements set by TT. And obviously, there are way too many talented female skaters in Russia and in TT as well. As a result, each of her students has to do whatever they can to keep competing at the national level and making the team for the Worlds or the Olympics. Thus the fact that the students come and go shouldn't hurt the Khrustalny team much, as they always get the cream. Consequently, Eteri probably has no interest, enthusiasm or time, which would be necessary to correct individual technique flaws or to look for new ideas in choreography and/or artistry, or maybe to take proper care of each athlete's health. If you ask me, considering the number of athletes contributing to the overall team performance, it's even impossible to pay enough attention to their individual needs equally.
What's more, the fact that Eteri has enough influence both on the Russian skating fed and on the ISU makes it extremely challenging for a whole bunch of other coaches such as Mishin, Panova, Volchkova-Butsaeva or Buyanova and their students to achieve much.
To sum up, basically, a lot of talented young ladies have been and will be hurt by this situation, and a lot of coaches as well.

Thank you for sharing, @ginglinicecubes! Post long and post often:)
 

Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Hi everyone,
This is the first time I'm replying to a post here, but I've been reading the forums for a while.
So, as far as I can know, the basic idea of the so-called Tutberidze methods is actually the way the whole system works and the fact that there are dozens of really talented skaters who can always take your spot in case you aren't compliant with the requirements set by TT. And obviously, there are way too many talented female skaters in Russia and in TT as well. As a result, each of her students has to do whatever they can to keep competing at the national level and making the team for the Worlds or the Olympics. Thus the fact that the students come and go shouldn't hurt the Khrustalny team much, as they always get the cream. Consequently, Eteri probably has no interest, enthusiasm or time, which would be necessary to correct individual technique flaws or to look for new ideas in choreography and/or artistry, or maybe to take proper care of each athlete's health. If you ask me, considering the number of athletes contributing to the overall team performance, it's even impossible to pay enough attention to their individual needs equally.
What's more, the fact that Eteri has enough influence both on the Russian skating fed and on the ISU makes it extremely challenging for a whole bunch of other coaches such as Mishin, Panova, Volchkova-Butsaeva or Buyanova and their students to achieve much.
To sum up, basically, a lot of talented young ladies have been and will be hurt by this situation, and a lot of coaches as well.

Thank you for such an outstanding post. Eteri prides herself on treating everyone the same. But evidently Sasha and aliona grew tired of that. Also she cannot guarantee or promise these fantastic young skaters things that somebody else can promise them. Eteri is
the dominant coach in Russia but she can't make the greatest promises with the most financial rewards attached. That is the danger she is obviously facing and losing that battle. The great coach also may need to look in the mirror and figure out what she can do to be a little more flexible and a little less rigid so fantastic skaters like Sasha and Aliona don't leave when they're 16 years old. I don't know the truth to it but it's been said for a long time that EG gets about 40% of what her skaters earn. That seems like a lot. Eteri may want to lower that # for future great skaters.
 

Amei

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
What's more, the fact that Eteri has enough influence both on the Russian skating fed and on the ISU makes it extremely challenging for a whole bunch of other coaches such as Mishin, Panova, Volchkova-Butsaeva or Buyanova and their students to achieve much.
To sum up, basically, a lot of talented young ladies have been and will be hurt by this situation, and a lot of coaches as well.

Where I disagree with your comment is about Mishin skaters not being able to achieve much based on Eteri's Fed/ISU influence - Mishin's skaters scores suffer because their programs are vacant of much in the way of choreography. Mishin's skaters do have a certain charisma (at times) with their programs but their choreography largely consists of a few hand gestures sprinkled around and they do little to no transitions into or out of jumps. Tuktamysheva jumps in her programs the same way you see adult skaters do at your local ice rinks jump in their programs where they are going straight into and out of the jumps; Eteri skaters are doing charlottes, leg extensions into and out of jumps, etc.


Consequently, Eteri probably has no interest, enthusiasm or time, which would be necessary to correct individual technique flaws or to look for new ideas in choreography and/or artistry, or maybe to take proper care of each athlete's health..

We see their skaters do some funkier/different things in their exhibitions, but Eteri and her choreographers jobs for their competition programs is to make something that a skater can maximize points on to win - look at the completely back-loaded programs that they did that required a lot of ingenuity that the ISU made a rule to prevent it from occurring any further. Are their programs necessarily always my favorites to watch from an artistic standpoint - no, but they aren't building a program for my viewing pleasure but for a skater to win.
 

ginglinicecubes

Spectator
Joined
Aug 11, 2020
Tuktamysheva jumps in her programs the same way you see adult skaters do at your local ice rinks jump in their programs where they are going straight into and out of the jumps; Eteri skaters are doing charlottes, leg extensions into and out of jumps, etc.


We see their skaters do some funkier/different things in their exhibitions, but Eteri and her choreographers jobs for their competition programs is to make something that a skater can maximize points on to win - look at the completely back-loaded programs that they did that required a lot of ingenuity that the ISU made a rule to prevent it from occurring any further. Are their programs necessarily always my favorites to watch from an artistic standpoint - no, but they aren't building a program for my viewing pleasure but for a skater to win.

Of course, tastes differ and all, and even beautiful choreo can't be enjoyable for every single viewer, but I believe the movements should go with the music, and hopefully you will agree with that. However, TT's girls' leg extensions and short spirals often have nothing to do with the musical accents or the general tune, while the positions in such elements are sometimes awkward and are not held long enough to be fixed, since the girl has to rush and move on to do other steps, extensions, charlottes and jumps :D It definitely adds to the difficulty of the program, yet it should result in lower PC's, IMO.
BTW, if you compare the programs all TT's girls have had during the past two years to those of previous seasons (by Lipnitskaya, Medvedeva or Zagitova) until 2018-2019, it's pretty obvious that the overall quality of the choreo and the ideas has changed from perfect to rather mediocre.
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
Thank you for such an outstanding post. Eteri prides herself on treating everyone the same. But evidently Sasha and aliona grew tired of that. Also she cannot guarantee or promise these fantastic young skaters things that somebody else can promise them. Eteri is
the dominant coach in Russia but she can't make the greatest promises with the most financial rewards attached. That is the danger she is obviously facing and losing that battle. The great coach also may need to look in the mirror and figure out what she can do to be a little more flexible and a little less rigid so fantastic skaters like Sasha and Aliona don't leave when they're 16 years old. I don't know the truth to it but it's been said for a long time that EG gets about 40% of what her skaters earn. That seems like a lot. Eteri may want to lower that # for future great skaters.

:scratch2: How can you know this? WE all know she is a saint and she is working for the work :biggrin:. I just don't understand how can she buy the Louis Vuitton goods and how can she pay the botox treatments?
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
:scratch2: How can you know this? WE all know she is a saint and she is working for the work :biggrin:. I just don't understand how can she buy the Louis Vuitton goods and how can she pay the botox treatments?

How can you say that? We all know she is Cruella de Vil, who only cares about money and appearance, for which she sucks life from veins of the young maidens like a cold blood vampire :devil:
 

nussnacker

one and only
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 16, 2019
:scratch2: How can you know this? WE all know she is a saint and she is working for the work :biggrin:. I just don't understand how can she buy the Louis Vuitton goods and how can she pay the botox treatments?

% from prize money are really not going to suffice to earn you anything.
Getting 30k rubles (~500$?) per lesson as Plushenko does, certainly will.

That 40% being thrown around after another „TSL Insider info“ seems really untrustworthy to me.
Their „insides“ are often as far from the truth as 5G conspiracies. Last time they got us another inside, that Eteri was about to make a statement about Aliona on channel 1 the week it happened, and oh, who would’ve known, that was another lie.
Same with info about Adelia Petrosyan leaving the group.

As a top coach you can earn money, from premiums government pays if your students get podium. I assume, that’s were majority of the income comes from.

It’s not like Mishin isn’t wearing Moncler (another luxury brand). He’s still a top coach, so of course he also will get similar payments from the government. Besides, Eteri used to be trashed for her clothes right before she got that single LV coat.

Like... come on now.

Again, if she was only after the money, opening a private school Plushenko style would’ve got her all the LV, Chanel and Diors that he likes to show off (Also, shaming for luxury from a Plushenko fan, given how much he flashes it...)

Not that there’s anything wrong with loving and owning luxury items.
 

nussnacker

one and only
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 16, 2019
Hi everyone,
This is the first time I'm replying to a post here, but I've been reading the forums for a while.
So, as far as I can know, the basic idea of the so-called Tutberidze methods is actually the way the whole system works and the fact that there are dozens of really talented skaters who can always take your spot in case you aren't compliant with the requirements set by TT. And obviously, there are way too many talented female skaters in Russia and in TT as well. As a result, each of her students has to do whatever they can to keep competing at the national level and making the team for the Worlds or the Olympics. Thus the fact that the students come and go shouldn't hurt the Khrustalny team much, as they always get the cream. Consequently, Eteri probably has no interest, enthusiasm or time, which would be necessary to correct individual technique flaws or to look for new ideas in choreography and/or artistry, or maybe to take proper care of each athlete's health. If you ask me, considering the number of athletes contributing to the overall team performance, it's even impossible to pay enough attention to their individual needs equally.
What's more, the fact that Eteri has enough influence both on the Russian skating fed and on the ISU makes it extremely challenging for a whole bunch of other coaches such as Mishin, Panova, Volchkova-Butsaeva or Buyanova and their students to achieve much.
To sum up, basically, a lot of talented young ladies have been and will be hurt by this situation, and a lot of coaches as well.
Hi there.
Let me challenge your statements a little bit.

- the internal competition in that team isn’t really something exclusive to them. As you yourself point out, Russia is super dense when it comes to talent, hence whether or not they are part of Team Tutberidze, all girls from all coaching Teams fight absolutely the same way for those 3 spots. In the end, it doesn’t matter who belongs to which team, the reality of only 3 spots pushes them as nothing else.

- Khrustalny „gets the cream“ not because they’re negligent to their students, but because they work for it. There are multiple examples when skaters in that team progressed incredibly fast.
Aliona was considering retiring after placing 17th at JrNats, or trying to make it to Eteri. In less than a year‘s time she placed 3rd at Senior Nats and 2nd at JGP and JrWorlds. She left them as a European and GPF champion.
Alina came as someone who was inferior to Alisa Lozko (both previously trained together in Izhevsk). While Alisa managed to make in to Mishin, Alina didn’t, but was taken on by Eteri.
Few years down the road, Alina owns a grand slam and is the highest paid russian figure skater, while Alisa retired without making it into senior international events.
And there are many more examples.

- The technique not being reworked, negligence
Well, there are many examples of visible improvements as well. At the top of my head: Aliona’s 3Lz became way better, Alina’s too, especially in Juniors. In 18-19 season Alina’s Axel was a bit off axis, that got fixed last season. Funnily enough, I had the same conversation in 18-19 with the user here telling me it won’t get fixed. But it turned out I was right in the end.

Does that mean that they’re good at fixing every single issue? No, of course not.
Some things take longer, so they might be slowly working on things, while people run to conclusions in the meantime, and some things they just can’t fix, because they’re not capable.
I don’t think they’re the greatest technicians and can do absolutely everything.
But I won’t agree that they’re just negligent, because their students are not perfect, because it’s not the case in reality.

Regarding the technique, it’s also good to remember that not everything depends on a coach. It’s like in a class, where teacher teaches 10 students, but not everyone, no matter the attention, will be a straight A student. Similarly, things will also partially depend on athletes themselves, not just coaching.
Look at the examples: Mishin coaches both Liza and Sofia since they were kids, and they have completely different technique. Same with Veronika and Aliona Zhilina‘s mom. She also coached them both to their triples, she definitely wouldn’t pay less attention to one daughter, and the girls still jump differently. Panova also coached Frolova, Sinitsina and Sotskova, and all 3 have different jumping technique.


I also think it’s kind of contradictory to think, that the coach has no enthusiasm or interest to coach, and yet, the students somehow just keep on progressing, improving, beating records and taking podiums. Unless there’s some magic water or air on that rink, none of that will come without hardworking and Talented students and good coaching.
 

Pantsu

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 12, 2019
Yeah, Alisa Lozko. I remember when she tried to escape from the Mishin camp. And you know what, almighty Tutberidze couldn't help her. Somehow powerless Mishin brought Alisa back
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
How can you say that? We all know she is Cruela de Vil, who only cares about money and appearance, for which she sucks life from veins of the young maidens like a cold blood vampire :devil:

I didn't say similar things never... LOL! You might be confusing me with someone else ;)
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
% from prize money are really not going to suffice to earn you anything.
Getting 30k rubles (~500$?) per lesson as Plushenko does, certainly will.

That 40% being thrown around after another „TSL Insider info“ seems really untrustworthy to me.
Their „insides“ are often as far from the truth as 5G conspiracies. Last time they got us another inside, that Eteri was about to make a statement about Aliona on channel 1 the week it happened, and oh, who would’ve known, that was another lie.
Same with info about Adelia Petrosyan leaving the group.

As a top coach you can earn money, from premiums government pays if your students get podium. I assume, that’s were majority of the income comes from.

It’s not like Mishin isn’t wearing Moncler (another luxury brand). He’s still a top coach, so of course he also will get similar payments from the government. Besides, Eteri used to be trashed for her clothes right before she got that single LV coat.

Like... come on now.

Again, if she was only after the money, opening a private school Plushenko style would’ve got her all the LV, Chanel and Diors that he likes to show off (Also, shaming for luxury from a Plushenko fan, given how much he flashes it...)

Not that there’s anything wrong with loving and owning luxury items.

Fitst: I don't care about Eteri's income. She deserves it. I hope she earns lots of money :agree: because the figure skaters and their coaches deserve much more! I would like to see high incomes as in other sports!!! I just reacted to Scott's post in wich she really seems like a saint. That's all.

Second: I don't know why you mentioned Plushenko. It seems Plushenko got stuck in the throat of fans of TT. :laugh: Plushenko didn' steal or win his money he worked hard for it. He was an incredible poor guy, you can't say any other skater who was such poor. There are levels he was at the bottom. He collected bottles with his mother if they wanted to eat for example.

Third: He was very wealthy because of his popularity, he won all the time, because he created many incredible shows. He opened his academy on that level, buildings coaches, etc. He could open because he was wealthy. LOL! His income during 2006-2018 : $ 23,5 millions.
But now he invests to the academy he has no profit.

Fourth: You forgot to mention ;) his cheapest lessons is 15 000/ months and he gives grants for the talented children and there are talented children who don't pay at all. Aaand because that is a private academy he must pay for everything but Eteri on the contrary receives everything from the club. This is not a good comparison. :no:
 

flanker

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Country
Czech-Republic
Oh, I just understand. To say she is not saint and to say she is a "cold blood vampire", etc is different, don't you think? :confused2:

It was actually you who said "she is saint", as a joke, I presume, and I said, "she is Cruella de Vil", as a joke as well. You surely don't want to wage war over which exaggeration (of what the other side does or says) for the purpose of fun and joke is more/less serious, do you? :dance2::rofl2:
 
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