2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Mathman]

What is the point of all this paranoid boasting and chest-thumping. Fans of Russian figure skating should be pleased at their treasure chest of talent and good fortune and let it go at that. No reason to continually mock and smirk at others.

 

[Lzbee]

What is the point of all this paranoid boasting and chest-thumping. Fans of Russian figure skating should be pleased at their treasure chest of talent and good fortune and let it go at that. No reason to continually mock and smirk at others.

If this is directed at me, then I apologise if I've across as mocking or smirking, that was not my intention. I know I cant resist from refuting statements when there are numbers to back it up but I will try to ignore them in the future.

 

[Scott512]

Do you mean longevity by any chance? Because just from the fact that there are "one or two new promising faces" every year means that the number of top athletes is increasing (ie. increasing depth) in Russia.

Unless you're saying that there are more promising Japanese skaters every year? Or are you saying that it's more competitive at the top for Japan because they're mostly all at the same level?

Not trying to be argumentative here, genuinely trying to understand what you mean.

Stating facts and the obvious is not being argumentative.

 

[readernick]

I love many of the Japanese ladies too but other than Rika, they honestly can't compete with the top Russians...

In the 2019-2020 season, there were 9 Russians in the top 15 seasons best. There were only 2 Japanese ladies.

(There were also 3 Americans and 1 South Korean in case anyone is curious)

In fairness, last season was a terrible one for Japanese ladies. Only Rika was close to her best (and even she had lower BV due to injury which forced her to remove her lutzes) It appears that the Japanese ladies are much stronger this year. Wakaba is landing 3As. Rika is landing great 4Ss, in addition to her 3As and her injury is healed and, as a result, her 3Lz is back. Mana Kawabe appears to be getting her 3A more consistent, and Kaori has been skating perfect error-free programs. They are easily competitive with most Russian senior ladies. However, (other than Rika) they probably aren't competitive with Sasha, Anna, or Alena (with a 3A).

 

[Scott512]

There were better ways to explain why Russia has better depth you know. Not that agressivity towards Japaneses and Asada who isn't even competing anymore.

Now Lipnitskaia and Kostner weren't competition in 2014 and GPF isn't a big title.....

You may be right and I'll leave it up to you to better explain it time.

I wasn't trying to denounce other countries even though it came out that way. That's just the way it is sometimes I wish I had more of a filter flanker or Fluture.

Why do people bring in the Russian girls aren't so great in the Russian ladies thread and expect no replies? I would never go into the Japanese ladies thread or the Korean ladies thread and the American ladies thread and say how mediocre they are compared to the Russians.

 

[[email protected]]

What is the point of all this paranoid boasting and chest-thumping. Fans of Russian figure skating should be pleased at their treasure chest of talent and good fortune and let it go at that. No reason to continually mock and smirk at others.

Sorry, but I cannot agree with you. When there are those who are provoked and those who provoke I would place much bigger blame on the latter. Otherwise, agressors would always win which is luckily not the case as history tells us. It all started with the notion that there is nothing like an immense depth in Russian ladies figure skating and the Japanese field looks more impressive. This is not an unbiased opinion - this is pure provocation. And yes, the responses with different level of emotions followed. And I agree with them. And if I read similar nonsense in the future I shall respond too. Action - counter action.

 

[Scott512]

If this is directed at me, then I apologise if I've across as mocking or smirking, that was not my intention. I know I cant resist from refuting statements when there are numbers to back it up but I will try to ignore them in the future.

Me to LZ. but it's hard when someone comes into the Russian ladies thread with confrontations.

Sorry, but I cannot agree with you. When there are those who are provoked and those who provoke I would place much bigger blame on the latter. Otherwise, agressors would always win which is luckily not the case as history tells us. It all started with the notion that there is nothing like an immense depth in Russian ladies figure skating and the Japanese field looks more impressive. This is not an unbiased opinion - this is pure provocation. And yes, the responses with different level of emotions followed. And I agree with them. And if I read similar nonsense in the future I shall respond too. Action - counter action.

I took it as someone trying to diminish the greatness of Russian ladies figure skating overall and I defended that greatness. I was the counter puncher. For me this will be forgotten about this afternoon. But coming in here and diminishing the Russian ladies is going to be like sticking your hand in the Siberian Tiger cage at the zoo.

In all seriousness this will be forgotten about this afternoon. It looks like we have an Alexi Evgeni War brewing again.

 

[yume]

It all started with the notion that there is nothing like an immense depth in Russian ladies figure skating and the Japanese field looks more impressive. This is not an unbiased opinion - this is pure provocation.

Maybe it's an honest opinion? Unpopular but an honest opinion. Maybe that person has different criteria for depth.

 

[chasingneverland]

Apart from Rika none of them could podium at Worlds. They're not even close to Russian ladies. Their 2nd place Satoko's best last year was beaten by 8 Russians including 2 juniors.

When did Satoko ever encounter these "8 Russians including 2 juniors" haha? If you're comparing national scores well, that's quite frankly stupid, as Japan is famous for not inflating their athletes' scores (and in some cases scoring harder than they are scored internationally) and Russia is well, NOT haha. Also, I'm not sure that Satoko is their second best anymore but she is more than capable of (and also has quite recently) beaten Liza, Sofia, etc. Kaori too. Kaori, Rika, and Satoko also get PCS scores internationally that are higher than any Russian except for Alina, Evgenia, and Alena (2 of which might not compete these year at all). Also, I'm not going to compare juniors to seniors because that is quite frankly like comparing apples to oranges, when considering differences in how they're scored (nationally vs internationally, bonuses, expectations, etc.) Also comparing across different competitions isn't a good comparison unless you're looking at international scores only. In addition Rika has a 3A, 3A-3T, and 4S, which is technical content that rivals Sasha and Anna (especially considering the SP lead) and is ahead of all other Russians (except Alena and Kamila who is still a junior). In fact Rika's short program technical content is higher than anyone else in the world but Alena and her free skate technical content is only behind Sasha, Anna, and Alena. In addition, Wakaba now has a 3A (which only Alena, Liza, and Sasha have and are competing). Mana also has a 3A. Others are training quads and have attempted them. To say that they are "not even close to Russian ladies" and to say that their second best is worse than 8 Russians is disingenuous and also quite frankly false. Rika is on the same level as Anna, Sasha, and Alena. And any of the other Japanese can beat any of the other competing Russians. Also it's not like ice isn't slippery. Anna, Sasha, and Alena have yet to skate clean programs this year and all three have struggled at key competitions in the past.

 

[Scott512]

No way. The atmosphere at Team TUT would have chewed up Liza and spat her out, but before that it would have taken away everything different and enjoyable about her skating.

You seem pretty confident of that. Winning trumps everything moose. and Liza would have won a lot more or at least placed much higher with TT the last 2 years if she was there.

I'm sure she's frustrated how in the world she nails one of the super jumps and still only scores 213. yeah I know everybody's going to say there's more to it than that and of course there is but it's not like she doesn't do anything else.

 

[chasingneverland]

In fairness, last season was a terrible one for Japanese ladies. Only Rika was close to her best (and even she had lower BV due to injury which forced her to remove her lutzes) It appears that the Japanese ladies are much stronger this year. Wakaba is landing 3As. Rika is landing great 4Ss, in addition to her 3As and her injury is healed and, as a result, her 3Lz is back. Mana Kawabe appears to be getting her 3A more consistent, and Kaori has been skating perfect error-free programs. They are easily competitive with most Russian senior ladies. However, (other than Rika) they probably aren't competitive with Sasha, Anna, or Alena (with a 3A).

Also keep in mind that Sasha, Anna, and Alena haven't even completed a full international season yet (due to COVID). I LOVE them but they haven't yet skated cleanly this year and were all struggling at Europeans last year. Also, (other than Kamila who is still a junior) Russian skaters ALSO aren't really competitive with Sasha, Anna, or Alena (it's not just other countries' skaters). It's not like Russia has 8 skaters at the level of their top 3. The other Japanese skaters are more than capable and competitive with the other Russian senior ladies and actually tend to score higher PCS wise internationally than all other Russian skaters with the exception of Evgenia, Alina, and Alena (two of which might not even skate this year and regardless aren't at their technical peak). Also, Rika actually is more than capable of beating every single one of Sasha, Anna, and Alena and has the TES and PCS to do so.

Finally, the initial statement wasn't who would medal. It was that other countries didn't have skaters "close to the same level" as Russian skaters nor "a lot of them in the same discipline" and that "second-tier Russians are better than other countries' top three" and I think that has been shown to be demonstratively false.

 

[yume]

At this point even a Kostornaya without 3A can beat a clean Liza. What Liza needs for a nats podium, besides better FP layout and consistency, is a bit of luck.

 

[Skatesocs]

Or a quad.

 

[silveruskate]

When did Satoko ever encounter these "8 Russians including 2 juniors" haha? If you're comparing national scores well, that's quite frankly stupid, as Japan is famous for not inflating their athletes' scores (and in some cases scoring harder than they are scored internationally) and Russia is well, NOT haha. Also, I'm not sure that Satoko is their second best anymore but she is more than capable of (and also has quite recently) beaten Liza, Sofia, etc. Kaori too. Kaori, Rika, and Satoko also get PCS scores internationally that are higher than any Russian except for Alina, Evgenia, and Alena (2 of which might not compete these year at all). Also, I'm not going to compare juniors to seniors because that is quite frankly like comparing apples to oranges, when considering differences in how they're scored (nationally vs internationally, bonuses, expectations, etc.) Also comparing across different competitions isn't a good comparison unless you're looking at international scores only. In addition Rika has a 3A, 3A-3T, and 4S, which is technical content that rivals Sasha and Anna (especially considering the SP lead) and is ahead of all other Russians (except Alena and Kamila who is still a junior). In fact Rika's short program technical content is higher than anyone else in the world but Alena and her free skate technical content is only behind Sasha, Anna, and Alena. In addition, Wakaba now has a 3A (which only Alena, Liza, and Sasha have and are competing). Mana also has a 3A. Others are training quads and have attempted them. To say that they are "not even close to Russian ladies" and to say that their second best is worse than 8 Russians is disingenuous and also quite frankly false. Rika is on the same level as Anna, Sasha, and Alena. And any of the other Japanese can beat any of the other competing Russians. Also it's not like ice isn't slippery. Anna, Sasha, and Alena have yet to skate clean programs this year and all three have struggled at key competitions in the past.

Comparing national scores is frankly stupid like you said but I didn't do that. I'm looking at the season's bests of last season. Sasha has all these quads and can do a triple axel now. I'm a fan, but that doesn't bring her above all other skaters in the world. I wouldn't even say she "has" a triple axel until she lands one with positive GOE in competition. You actually have to do the content in competition. I get you're a massive fan of Japanese skaters, but let's at least talk about reality.

This wasn't even the point of the discussion yesterday until someone became upset a poster said off-hand that the Russian level is better than the skaters of all other countries in the world as it stands. This is the Russian Ladies Thread in the end.

 

[yume]

Or a quad.

Yep. A quad at a good place in her layout. Not sabotaged by weird choices of jumps/combos.

 

[readernick]

Finally, the initial statement wasn't who would medal. It was that other countries didn't have skaters "close to the same level" as Russian skaters nor "a lot of them in the same discipline" and that "second-tier Russians are better than other countries' top three" and I think that has been shown to be demonstratively false.

This is the Russian ladies' thread. There are a lot of nationalistic people here. You will find similar nationalists in the US thread and definitely in the Canadian thread. I think it is best not to take such comments too seriously. Rika is definitely at the level of the top three Russian ladies. The other top Japanese ladies are at or above the level of the other senior ladies (excepting Sasha, Anna, Alena). However, in terms of developing talent at the junior and novice levels, I do have to say that the Russian ladies do appear to be ahead. However, there are promising skaters in many countries including Japan, Korea, and the USA.

 

[chasingneverland]

Comparing national scores is frankly stupid like you said but I didn't do that. I'm looking at the season's bests of last season. Sasha has all these quads and can do a triple axel now. I'm a fan, but that doesn't bring her above all other skaters in the world. I wouldn't even say she "has" a triple axel until she lands one with positive GOE in competition. You actually have to do the content in competition. I get you're a massive fan of Japanese skaters, but let's at least talk about reality.

This wasn't even the point of the discussion yesterday until someone became upset a poster said off-hand that the Russian level is better than the skaters of all other countries in the world as it stands. This is the Russian Ladies Thread in the end.

I'm actually not a massive fan of the Japanese haha, just Rika and Kaori haha. I'm actually a much bigger fan of the Russian skaters. However, that's outside the point.

The initial argument was that no other country has the depth of Russia, no one else is "even close to the same level" and that second-tier Russian skaters' could beat the top three skaters of other countries and I refuted that false statement. The example I used to refute it was the Japanese skaters, as they have incredible depth (top skaters are left at home every year) and are very close to the same level - Rika in particular could beat all Russians. Obviously they have to do it in competition - that WAS MY WHOLE POINT. Russian skaters, included though. I am talking about reality and that's why are initially argued that it's disingenuous to claim that Russian skaters could beat everyone, even second-tier ones.

 

[chasingneverland]

It all started with the notion that there is nothing like an immense depth in Russian ladies figure skating and the Japanese field looks more impressive. This is not an unbiased opinion - this is pure provocation.

When did anyone say that the "Japanese field looks more impressive"? I believe all anyone argued is that the Japanese field is also deep (every year top skaters are left home) and their top skaters are comparable to Russian top skaters - Rika to Alena, Anna, and Sasha and everyone else to everyone else.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

Also keep in mind that Sasha, Anna, and Alena haven't even completed a full international season yet (due to COVID). I LOVE them but they haven't yet skated cleanly this year and were all struggling at Europeans last year.

Anna, Sasha, and Alena have yet to skate clean programs this year and all three have struggled at key competitions in the past.

Funnily enough, they still managed to win the gold medal at all six GP stages and sweep the podiums of all other competitions they attended last season. Sasha and Anna also won their competitions this season thus far, thereby beating other skaters who also showed clean quads (in Sasha's case) and triple axels (in Anna's case).

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

As much as I love the Russian ladies, I can't help but feel like their SS, on average, are lower than the Japanese ladies. Especially in the area of keeping a flowing edge after landing a jump. Maybe it's the choreography, or maybe the coaching? Or maybe I'm just being blind.