2020-21 Japanese Ladies' Figure Skating

[rollerblade]

Sakamoto and Wakaba are two great skaters, but Sakamoto delivered everything today. Wakaba had 2 pops and many other minor mistakes. This whole conversation makes no sense.

People are complaining about the 29 point score gap, not the placements.

 

[Joekaz]

Relying on conspiracy theories is easier than facing the reality. Wakaba will not see a rise on goe/pcs unless she delivers. Shes been missing time and time again since the olympic season.

Sakamoto and Wakaba are two great skaters, but Sakamoto delivered everything today. Wakaba had 2 pops and many other minor mistakes. This whole conversation makes no sense.

Stating the obvious is not a conspiracy theory. However, I do agree with you that Wakaba has to skate cleanly or it doesn't matter. My point was that the scoring margin was greatly inflated, which it clearly was.

 

[Joekaz]

She shouldn’t be 10 points ahead in PCS, and she wasn’t here. Kaori has stronger skating skills, transitions, and pretty good musicality (I think she is a better PCS skater overall, but that’s my opinion). And while I love Wakaba, her performance doesn’t really come out until the step sequence. Also, the Japanese Fed has supported Wakaba in the past. Additionally, during the Olympic year, Satoko technically qualified for the final due to Evgenia’s WD. The Grand Prix final wasn’t Wakaba’s best come which unfortunately set up nationals to not go very well, with others like Kaori and Rika doing well. Also I agree, Kaori doesn’t have the tech content to compete with Rika, but by backloading combos, she’s trying to be closer. But Rika should win, especially when she’s clean with her 3A, without a doubt.

7 pts in the long plus 3 in the short equals 10 my friend. And that is ridiculous. The Fed has NEVER supported Wakaba at all. And Satoko didnt qualify, she was a replacement for injured Medvedeva.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Relying on conspiracy theories is easier than facing the reality. Wakaba will not see a rise on goe/pcs unless she delivers. Shes been missing time and time again since the olympic season.

Sakamoto and Wakaba are two great skaters, but Sakamoto delivered everything today. Wakaba had 2 pops and many other minor mistakes. This whole conversation makes no sense.

How is talking about judges and feds favoring skaters "conspiracy theories"? It's happened since forever with every fed. And Wakaba popping 2 jumps has zero to do with Kaori's clear flutz being scored as one of the strongest jumps of the whole event, while nearly every other lady got at least an edge warning on their problem jumps.

And clear favoritism like this is an issue - because of what it means mentally for these skaters. Losing with an appropriate ~15 point difference or an uncatchable 30 points is a huge difference. One means you have work to do, the other means you might as well not try. Don't you think Wakaba knows she'll have to be foot perfect with way higher difficulty then Kaori to have a chance to beat her? And Kaori knows that too. There is nothing fair about that, and it'll make actually delivering easier for Kaori then Wakaba, having less riskier Layouts *and* less pressure. And then you can pat yourself on the back and waffel on about ~consistency~. Even though Kaori's own inconsistencies last season meant nothing, but Waka's mean she apparently shouldn't even expect GOE/PCS for the things she does well now. (And just to add that: you basically sound as if reputation scoring was a good thing. It's not).

And it obviously isn't just about Wakaba and Kaori. You think Marin Honda looks at those 7+ she gets in SS and thinks "oh totally fair because I didn't rotate my 3F, so encouraging to go out there and work harder!". Same for girls like Yuhana or Mai, they got scored like lesser peasants compared to the Queen that might as well have stayed home (well, except for Rino I'd argue). Nothing of this is "conspiracy theory".

 

[Skatefan15]

7 pts in the long plus 3 in the short equals 10 my friend. And that is ridiculous. The Fed has NEVER supported Wakaba at all. And Satoko didnt qualify, she was a replacement for injured Medvedeva.

Never added PCS across the long and the short before, but ok. And either way Satoko skated in the final. Also, what do you mean the Fed has never supported Wakaba? When she’s skated well, they have rewarded her for it and when she skates not as good, they call her out on it, just like everyone else. Wakaba has gotten multiple medals at nationals (even before she was internationally a senior) so I’m confused what you mean by they have “never” supported her.

 

[kwanatic]

Very enjoyable event! I love the Japanese skating aesthetic (emphasis on skating skills, knee bend, generally strong in presentation/artistry) so a competition full of that was awesome. My thoughts:

Kaori: I mean wow. She was firing on all cylinders for both segments and was rewarded for it. Her choice to play it safe and clean paid off against some of the others who took a risk with the tougher elements. Her speed, power and flow are remarkable. I think that was the biggest factor in the PCS scoring. Speed makes everything look great and she barrels into those jumps going a zillion miles an hour which leaves a great impression on the judges. I don't think her scoring was too overly generous--she's that good. I'd have probably had her 2 points lower in PCS but she skated last and she skated best so I get the "bonus" PCS points. She doesn't have the lines of some of the more aesthetically beautiful skaters but her team does a good job of highlighting her strengths. Her SP was great (even though I prefer her SP from last season) and that Matrix FS is such a great fit for her. I love her new Biellmann position in her layback. It's great to see her nail everything. What a talent!

Wakaba: I love that she's going for the tougher content. High risk, high reward. It didn't pay off in the SP and though she hit it in the FS she needed every point to try to catch Kaori and she fell short. That bad habit of popping/doubling lost her somewhere around 10 points. Kaori still would have won but the gap would not have been as wide. Wakaba's inconsistency hurts her scores. She can be brilliant one moment and a hot mess the next. It's almost like the judges don't know what to do with her. Kaori has the edge on her with GOE when it comes to jumps and spins but I love Wakaba's performance and energy when she's on. I think her second place finish is deserved. If she can get that 3A to be consistent and maintain her focus throughout the rest of the program, she'll be in good shape.

Rino: OMG I love her! Her skating skills are gorgeous, her lines, the intention and energy she gives her movements...I love her! She caught my eye last week when I saw a video of her. Her programs were lovely and her presentation is so strong. Rino is tiny but there is a lot of power in her movements and I love to see that. None of her moves are thrown away; she reminds of Satoko in that way. Every arm movement, turn of the head, etc. is well placed and polished. I see that in Rino. I'm so happy to see her medal here. I will definitely be keeping an eye on her.

Mai: It was great to see Mai out there competing but I just kept thinking how thin and frail she looks. I know she'd been injured but I don't know the extent of her absence from skating. Is there more to her story? Was she sick? It was jarring to see how she looks now compared to her back in 2018/2019. I'm glad she was able to have strong performances here. The crowd was so happy for her for skating well and you could tell it meant a lot to her to put out those good performances. Still, I just hope she's okay health wise.

You: I don't know if they're nitpicking or if she really is having UR issues. I'll have to go back and watch. It sucks to see her finish so low here when I was expecting her to contend for gold. I'm hoping it was just a bit of an off night for her. I'd hate to see someone so brilliant be derailed by UR issues.

Yuhana: Why does she always have the hottest of hot messes when it comes to her FSs? Tom & Jerry music complete with all of the Tom screaming? IDK what they were thinking...lol.

Marin: Still stunningly gorgeous to watch and still struggling mightily with the jumps. I don't want to give up on her but, from the looks of it, her competitive days are behind her. I'll keep my fingers crossed that something will click one day only because she's just SO lovely to watch. Skating skills, line, presentation, the way she performs from the top of her head to the tips of her fingers. I hate that she struggles so much with the technical stuff. Oh well...

Congrats to the medalists!

 

[Skatefan15]

Is there more to her story? Was she sick? It was jarring to see how she looks now compared to her back in 2018/2019.

I think they said that she has juvenile arthritis and based on how it caused her to miss last year (and be hospitalized other years) it seems pretty severe. Her illness seems to have caused her to lose a lot of weight it looks like she is slowly but surely gaining her muscle back though.

 

[kwanatic]

I think they said that she has juvenile arthritis and based on how it caused her to miss last year (and be hospitalized other years) it seems pretty severe. Her illness seems to have caused her to lose a lot of weight it looks like she is slowly but surely gaining her muscle back though.

Okay, that makes more sense. I know injuries could be tough but weight loss tends to speak more to health issues rather than just an injury. I hope she continues to get better. It was great to see her out there again

 

[Ophelia]

Sakamoto's skating is sooo smoooooooth. It's apparent even across video. She maintains the same speed going into a jump and coming out. She needs more work on her expressions though - she looked like she was sleep-skating through the first step sequence. That Matrix program deserves more oomph.

 

[Joekaz]

Never added PCS across the long and the short before, but ok. And either way Satoko skated in the final. Also, what do you mean the Fed has never supported Wakaba? When she’s skated well, they have rewarded her for it and when she skates not as good, they call her out on it, just like everyone else. Wakaba has gotten multiple medals at nationals (even before she was internationally a senior) so I’m confused what you mean by they have “never” supported her.

When Wakaba got medals it was because she deserved them. She has never gotten inflated PCS or lenient tech scoring like Kaori and Satoko usually get. As a matter of fact she is usually underscored domestically. And the Fed never has lobbied for her internationally like they do for their chosen ones.

 

[Leonardo]

People are complaining about the 29 point score gap, not the placements.

Thats exactly what happens when you have a fall in the short program, two pops in the free (including a badly landed pop), bad landing on the 3lz3t, two q marks, an edge call and misses the levels on your spin and your main competitor is clean and shows more speed, quality, precision, consistency, etc.

 

[Joekaz]

Thats exactly what happens when you have a fall in the short program, two pops in the free (including a badly landed pop), bad landing on the 3lz3t, two q marks, an edge call and misses the levels on your spin and your main competitor is clean and shows more speed, quality, precision, consistency, etc.

You mean the main competitor that got away with 2 edge calls on her highest scoring solo jumps, has the poor posture and upper body movement of a novice, doesn't know what to do with her arms, and skates like she cant even hear the music? Her? And had a combined 10 point PCS edge? Ok. Thanks for proving our point.

 

[Skatefan15]

When Wakaba got medals it was because she deserved them. She has never gotten inflated PCS or lenient tech scoring like Kaori and Satoko usually get. As a matter of fact she is usually underscored domestically. And the Fed never has lobbied for her internationally like they do for their chosen ones.

I think all Japanese ladies at some point have benefited from overlooked edge calls (Wakaba’s flip edge isn’t the most solid), higher PCS (especially when they were juniors) and lenient GOE. The medals that all these girls have gotten are deserved though, when Kaori won nationals in the 2018-19 season that was deserved because Rika messed up the short. When Wakaba was 2nd last year, that was deserved as well. Also, what do you mean by “lobbying” for skaters?

 

[Skatefan15]

Thats exactly what happens when you have a fall in the short program, two pops in the free (including a badly landed pop), bad landing on the 3lz3t, two q marks, an edge call and misses the levels on your spin and your main competitor is clean and shows more speed, quality, precision, consistency, etc.

I agree this whole conversation seems kind of pointless, especially at this point. Kaori deserved to win, maybe not by that much but still. Also, looking at the protocol where Wakaba got a q, the GOE’s from each individual judge were kind of generous because according to the rule book a q on a jump is a -2 GOE which only one judge gave. I wish we could all just be happy at Wakaba’s standed axel (although q) and Kaori’s clean skate (as well as some pretty good skates from others as well).

 

[Joekaz]

I think all Japanese ladies at some point have benefited from overlooked edge calls (Wakaba’s flip edge isn’t the most solid), higher PCS (especially when they were juniors) and lenient GOE. The medals that all these girls have gotten are deserved though, when Kaori won nationals in the 2018-19 season that was deserved because Rika messed up the short. When Wakaba was 2nd last year, that was deserved as well. Also, what do you mean by “lobbying” for skaters?

If you think they don't have favorites and treat every skater fairly then we completely disagree.

 

[Leonardo]

You mean the main competitor that got away with 2 edge calls on her highest scoring solo jumps, has the poor posture and upper body movement of a novice, doesn't know what to do with her arms, and skates like she cant even hear the music? Her? And had a combined 10 point PCS edge? Ok. Thanks for proving our point.

You dont like Kaoris skating, thats ok, thats your opinion, I even agree with some of your points. And I totally think that Wakaba is more polished in general. But your personal opinions and conspiracy theories or claims about jsf are your own. These are not facts. A fall, two pops and three bad landings are facts. Your opinion seems to be a little disconectted from the facts. 25, 29, 26, 22 point difference, it doesnt matter, she got outskated by a mile because of her own mistakes, and she probably understands that better than anyone. Today Wakaba was outskated by Kaori and did not skate nearly as good as she could. Kaori had the best skates of her life, it was her day. Maybe at Nationals it will be Wakabas day. Thats life, thats the sport. Please, can we come back to reality?

 

[Joekaz]

I agree this whole conversation seems kind of pointless, especially at this point. Kaori deserved to win, maybe not by that much but still. Also, looking at the protocol where Wakaba got a q, the GOE’s from each individual judge were kind of generous because according to the rule book a q on a jump is a -2 GOE which only one judge gave. I wish we could all just be happy at Wakaba’s standed axel (although q) and Kaori’s clean skate (as well as some pretty good skates from others as well).

The whole point IS the scoring margin. This was just a warmup for Nationals. The judges sent a clear message about who they prefer and by how much. This will undoubtedly have a big mental effect on the skaters. And that is a big part of skating.

 

[Joekaz]

You dont like Kaoris skating, thats ok, thats your opinion, I even agree with some of your points. And I totally think that Wakaba is more polished in general. But your personal opinions and conspiracy theories or claims about jsf are your own. These are not facts. A fall, two pops and three bad landings are facts. Your opinion seems to be a little disconectted from the facts. 25, 29, 26, 22 point difference, it doesnt matter, she got outskated by a mile because of her own mistakes, and she probably understands that better than anyone. Today Wakaba was outskated by Kaori and did not skate nearly as good as she could. Kaori had the best skates of her life, it was her day. Maybe at Nationals it will be Wakabas day. Thats life, thats the sport. Please, can we come back to reality?

I agree with everything you said except that the point difference doesn't matter. The fact is the scoring is much more important than this competition was. It is a clear sign that they will favor Kaori at Nats with lenient tech and generous PCS scoring. That is reality. Btw, Kaori is my second favorite skater and I enjoy watching her, but I also know her strengths and weaknesses.

 

[silveruskate]

You mean the main competitor that got away with 2 edge calls on her highest scoring solo jumps, has the poor posture and upper body movement of a novice, doesn't know what to do with her arms, and skates like she cant even hear the music? Her? And had a combined 10 point PCS edge? Ok. Thanks for proving our point.

If Kaori's your second favourite skater then you must hate all other skaters in existence.

 

[Skatefan15]

If you think they don't have favorites and treat every skater fairly then we completely disagree.

They definitely do have favorites, I never said they didn’t. But to think that the federation hates Wakaba is something else. The only thing that they could have done with Kaori was call out her lutz edges (which I wish they did) other than that she was just better overall this time compared to someone who popped and fell, but by nationals if Wakaba’s clean then she’ll be the one who’s ahead.