Let the V&M, B&A and D&S (squared) comparisons begin!

[lutzskate]

So I've noticed (and yes, I know it was a different panel of judges) that V&M's overall score significantly beat B&A's overall scores at both Skate America and here.

I don't want to jinx them, but I really do believe that their talents and skills equal any one of the top teams this year.

Interested to hear others' thoughts who have seen B&A and V&M's programs this year

 

[slutskayafan21]

Remember Domnina/Shabalin were on their way to beating Virtue/Moir's point total from SC until that clunker of a FD. In the CD and OD they were on pace ahead of both Virtue/Moir and Belbin/Agosto. Once they have time to fix that ugghh free dance they will be very hard to beat.

We also have yet to see the #1 French team.

 

[wushuang122]

I ally can not understand why D/S(RUS) could such a high PCS?

 

[cotillion]

For such an experienced team such as D&S ,it's odd to see them get dinged for an extra element , you kind of expect stuff like this from younger teams, but I guess it happens . I don't think they would have beaten V&M long program marks from SC, they had 8 level 4 marks , and were only held back slightly in comp scores, D&S had a rough time of it out there by the looks of the scores, 5 level 4, 1 level 3, 2 level 2 and 1 level 1, plus of course the illegal element , perhaps they would have scored close to 100 who knows? But I have no doubt they will win their next comp.They are not likley to make these same mistakes twice. Virtue & Moirs' OD and Freedances are masterpieces again this year, the freedance lifts are effortless and breathtaking , especially the final lift, their speed is apparent now, transitions and twizzles flawless , no two foot skating , just pure beauty, now I'm gushing, I'll stop!!

 

[rain]

V/M are my personal favourites, but I think the judges may not be quite ready yet to elevate them to the battle for the gold at worlds. They may, however, move them into contention for one of the other medals. Don't get me wrong, with the quality of their programs and overall skating I think they are one of the top teams in the world, but they are still very young and only just in senior competition. They may still have another year of dues to pay before they get the final push to the elite tier. I will certainly not be disappointed though, if that's not the case.

I worry that if Dom/Shab make it to the gold medal this season, it will be every Russian dance champion all over again, meaning we will be stuck with them as champions until they retire. I think that would be bad for ice dance as a whole. Right now it's so exciting because the field is so open — it's totally up for grabs! I love that! And I think it's warranted, as there are many good teams.

 

[nuge]

I hope that Delobel/Shoenfelder can win gold this year and then not hang on to 2010 as I think they definately will be overtaken. B/A or Dom/Shab will win worlds 2009 Dom/Shab will win olympic gold .Only then I think the judges will give WG to V/M in 2010 when B/A D/S D/S maybe RETIRE.D/S tav and D/L should IMO not bother to go to olympics.

 

[all that]

I hope that Delobel/Shoenfelder can win gold this year and then not hang on to 2010 as I think they definately will be overtaken. B/A or Dom/Shab will win worlds 2009 Dom/Shab will win olympic gold .Only then I think the judges will give WG to V/M in 2010 when B/A D/S D/S maybe RETIRE.D/S tav and D/L should IMO not bother to go to olympics.

So, you don't think the judges will give V/M any World medal til 2010? Hmm, I don't know about that. V/M received World medal marks at SC, but perhaps those scores were wildly inflated. I'm waiting to see how NHK pans out before I make any sort of call.

 

[DaveT]

I worry that if Dom/Shab make it to the gold medal this season, it will be every Russian dance champion all over again, meaning we will be stuck with them as champions until they retire. I think that would be bad for ice dance as a whole. Right now it's so exciting because the field is so open — it's totally up for grabs! I love that! And I think it's warranted, as there are many good teams.

Sans some major mistakes that would make it impossible, my prediction is D/S will be your gold medalists at this and every Worlds up to Olympics, Olympic champions and then retire. They will have to make major blunders to prevent the judges putting them where they are planned to be. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[rain]

Sans some major mistakes that would make it impossible, my prediction is D/S will be your gold medalists at this and every Worlds up to Olympics, Olympic champions and then retire. They will have to make major blunders to prevent the judges putting them where they are planned to be. Hope I'm wrong.

This is exactly what I fear, and what I don't want to see happen. A lot more people are actually watching and enjoying ice dance now because it's a real competition. Also, D/S, while good skaters, do not deserved such an elevation. IMO, neither did Navka/Kostomorov, or Gritschuk/Platov. I think a lot of people totally wrote off dance in the G/P era because of their ridiculous string of victories where they might as well have been skating unopposed as far as the judges were concerned. Then came N/K, but they were actually challenged for a couple of seasons — then the judges quickly put an end to that. And ice dance became much more ho-hum because of it.

 

[slutskayafan21]

I think Navka/Kostomarov deserved their 2 Worlds titles, Olympic Gold, 3 GP final titles. They were the best team and I cant think who outskated them at any of those events. Their only iffy win might be the 2006 Europeans.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Nothing was wrong with Navka and Kostomarov's technique. However the rapport they had was one of aloofness in that both were proclaiming they were the better of the team. Navka was just so much Garboish in wanting to be alone.

Not so with this 'new wave' of dance skaters. V&M to me, seem to be 'lovers' on the ice. It's old fashion non-explosive passion as it is with other youngish dance teams. If you didn't see Heathcliff and Kathy in C&J's Chopin, you probably were looking for other means of critique.

Please, the above is just my opinion.

Joe

 

[chuckm]

But DomShabs are no Navka/Kostomarov. And I agree with the others that there is a real danger that DomShabs are "the anointed ones", regardless of how they skate relative to other teams, and they will win Worlds 2008, 2009 and the OGM in quick succession.

As for DomShabs and B/A retiring after the 2010 Olympics, don't count on it. Both teams are young: Tanith and Oksana are 23, and Ben and Max are 25. In 2010, for the Olympics, they will both be 25/28, too young to retire (for ice dancers). Both could go on for another Olympic cycle. In 2006, Dubreuil / Lauzon were 31 and 30 and Denkova / Staviiski were 31 and 28, and neither team retired. Den/Sta won 2006 Worlds and still didn't retire, and as of this summer, they had still not announced their retirement (and then Max was involved in that drunk driving homicide).

OTOH, Delobel / Schoenfelder are both 29. If they continue to the 2010 Olympics, they will be 31 and 32 and probably will retire.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

But DomShabs are no Navka/Kostomarov. And I agree with the others that there is a real danger that DomShabs are "the anointed ones", regardless of how they skate relative to other teams, and they will win Worlds 2008, 2009 and the OGM in quick succession.

There has been for some time an easy prediction for the 'anoited ones' to win the gold. But I think 2007 Worlds showed that there has been some bending of that theory. It all started with that dreadful Jitterbug routine that beat Torvahl and Dean's Fred and Ginger's classic Fox Trot in that Olys. Even Gene Kelly was upset and sent T&D a cablegram to say they wuzzrobbed. Maybe Dom/Shabs can go beyond stone faced dancing and have some fun.

Joe

 

[chuckm]

At Worlds 2007, the CD and OD panels had just one Russian judge (no Russians 'loaned' to other former SSRs) and one Ukrainian judge. DomShabs placed a close 3rd in the CD and a close 4th in the OD and were less than 1.4 points behind B/A. With the same panel, DomShabs might have closed the gap by beating B/A in the FD---and B/A were vulnerable, since they were performing their new FD for only the 2nd time in competition.

But the 2007 FD panel was a rarity: the Russian and Ukrainian judges weren't drawn for the FD, and the only other former SSR judge was from Lithuania, and not a reliable supporter of Russian teams. DomShabs not only couldn't close the gap with B/A, but fell further behind in the FD, and in addition was passed by DelShoes.

I think you will find that the composition of the judging panel for this year's Worlds Ice Dance competition will be very different. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see more former SSRs with "loaned" Russian judges on the list: Belarus, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, along with, of course, Russia. The more judges available, the greater the likelihood that two or more will be assigned to the CD and/or OD, and drawn for the FD.

 

[Kypma]

At Worlds 2007, the CD and OD panels had just one Russian judge (no Russians 'loaned' to other former SSRs) and one Ukrainian judge. DomShabs placed a close 3rd in the CD and a close 4th in the OD and were less than 1.4 points behind B/A. With the same panel, DomShabs might have closed the gap by beating B/A in the FD---and B/A were vulnerable, since they were performing their new FD for only the 2nd time in competition.

But the 2007 FD panel was a rarity: the Russian and Ukrainian judges weren't drawn for the FD, and the only other former SSR judge was from Lithuania, and not a reliable supporter of Russian teams. DomShabs not only couldn't close the gap with B/A, but fell further behind in the FD, and in addition was passed by DelShoes.

I think you will find that the composition of the judging panel for this year's Worlds Ice Dance competition will be very different. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see more former SSRs with "loaned" Russian judges on the list: Belarus, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, along with, of course, Russia. The more judges available, the greater the likelihood that two or more will be assigned to the CD and/or OD, and drawn for the FD.

Isnt' that kind of unfair to other teams? To have many countries trying to boost Russia's teams? It looks like a way around the "one judge per country" rule...

Kypma

 

[Gericho2004]

Are other Federations/Associations aware of the multiple judges. And if so, have they made any effort to eliminate the situation?

 

[skatingfan04]

I don't want to make any real comparisons this early in the season, since we haven't seen all of the top teams yet. Im really curious to see what the French team comes up with this season, and how Virtue/Moir stack up against them in Paris. I think that V/M will be in contention for gold at worlds this year, but I fear that they may get held back because of inexperience. As much as I believe that judging is usually fair, sometimes I wonder. I thin V/M will consistantly finish ahead of belbin/Agosto this season with programs that breathtaking, but that's JMO. Anything can happen. I'm curious to see if they can overtake the Russians or French, or if they will have to wait a couple more years. Of course, despite my preference to V/M, I really do hope that the best team takes the world title this year. It's always nice when you can feel that the champion truly deserved their title.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Isnt' that kind of unfair to other teams? To have many countries trying to boost Russia's teams? It looks like a way around the "one judge per country" rule...Kypma

I think Chukum was talking about the Russian diaspora. Their judges are in many new countries including non slavic countries, and their hearts, apparently stay with the mother country. That's just theory so one doesn't have to believe it.

Joe

 

[oxade21]

I think Chukum was talking about the Russian diaspora. Their judges are in many new countries including non slavic countries, and their hearts, apparently stay with the mother country. That's just theory so one doesn't have to believe it.

Joe

Yeah, it sounds more like some of the conspiracy theory obessed people around here will never be satisfied. Still living in Cold War where former Soviet Union countries and some Eastern European countries are considered same. People get over it, Russia has more strained relationship with its former republics than it does with Canada or USA. Those days are gone and the fact that a certain judge from Uzbekistan has Russian surname does not indicate that he/she will vote for Russian skater, in fact she might very well do just the opposite. Fresh example?? Having the so-called Russian-Israeli block at CoC did not seem to help D/S.

I am sure that judges will always be inclined to vote for someone their have strategic interest voting for, BUT which federation is clean of backdoor dealing?
If anyone has any idea about how the deal is made, one should know that it is always a placement trading. Meaning that if there is a fix, there are two parties involved not just one side imposing the decision.

 

[nuge]

So, you don't think the judges will give V/M any World medal til 2010? Hmm, I don't know about that. V/M received World medal marks at SC, but perhaps those scores were wildly inflated. I'm waiting to see how NHK pans out before I make any sort of call.

I said they wouldn't get the gold medal till worlds 2010, not that they wouldn't get a silver/bronze .
Don't forget history books say OG always goes to Russia/France.:yes:
So either Domnina/Shabalin Kokhlova/Novitski or Delobel/Shoenfelder will win .:yes: We'll see