2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

[Fluture]

No, not really. I assume she can’t do -Eu-3Sal is more likely the reason. Instead, she opts for 3-2-2 combo. Not sure if she’s capable of it, cause I personally don’t remember her doing it, maybe I forgot. Imo, lack of -eu-Sal will come bite her later on, whether or not she’ll get a quad.
Her second place was also not at all a given.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CSO6EHDIl0t/?utm_medium=copy_link

Layout at test skates this very season. 3F+Eu+3S and 3Lz+3T and a 4S attempt.

She took out the Euler combo because she did a 3S instead of a 4S. If she hadn't done the -2T-2Lo, she‘d have had to swap the first Salchow for a 2A and change the transitions. A disruption of the layout like that can be confusing and is simply not worth it. For comparison:

Muravieva‘s layout (jumps only) at JGP Kosice had a BV of 45.66. If she‘d substituted the 3S with a 2A and done the Euler combo, it would have been 45.96. Too much risk and not enough potential reward at this particular event since the goal was to win Silver (after Zhilina‘s performance Gold was gone) and get a second assignment. She did that.

Her score is also the second highest of all events so far. Why would they not give her a second assignment right away? She's earned it.

 

[Fluture]

Austria JGP is posted, tentatively Samodelkina and Zinina. Anything can happen depending upon the prior JGP results, but looks like Frolova and Berestovskaya completely locked out. Anyone else locked out from test skates? (Other than Gorbecheva, and she seemed to be told early on) Berestovskaya not even listed as a S.

I can understand Berestovskaya not getting anything (she‘s regressed a lot and her programs are horrible this season) but I don’t understand their plan for Frolova. She was one of the best at test skates and now skaters who performed a lot worse get spots just because they‘re younger and could potentially land an ultra-c element in the future? For the record Frolova has just turned 16, not 25. But I guess that‘s the way it is. Could have at least given her a Challenger assignment then, so she has a chance to improve her WS and get in contention for a GP.

 

[Lzbee]

Austria JGP is posted, tentatively Samodelkina and Zinina. Anything can happen depending upon the prior JGP results, but looks like Frolova and Berestovskaya completely locked out. Anyone else locked out from test skates? (Other than Gorbecheva, and she seemed to be told early on) Berestovskaya not even listed as a S.

Hmm I wonder if it's because Rusfed want to prevent Levito from getting a second gold. I would think Samodelkina has a better chance than Frolova of beating her but then again Samodelkina was quite shaky at test skates.

 

[Jontor]

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CSO6EHDIl0t/?utm_medium=copy_link

Layout at test skates this very season. 3F+Eu+3S and 3Lz+3T and a 4S attempt.

She took out the Euler combo because she did a 3S instead of a 4S. If she hadn't done the -2T-2Lo, she‘d have had to swap the first Salchow for a 2A and change the transitions. A disruption of the layout like that can be confusing and is simply not worth it. For comparison:

Muravieva‘s layout (jumps only) at JGP Kosice had a BV of 45.66. If she‘d substituted the 3S with a 2A and done the Euler combo, it would have been 45.96. Too much risk and not enough potential reward at this particular event since the goal was to win Silver (after Zhilina‘s performance Gold was gone) and get a second assignment. She did that.

Her score is also the second highest of all events so far. Why would they not give her a second assignment right away? She's earned it.

Loooved that explanation @Fluture

 

[Jontor]

I can understand Berestovskaya not getting anything (she‘s regressed a lot and her programs are horrible this season) but I don’t understand their plan for Frolova. She was one of the best at test skates and now skaters who performed a lot worse get spots just because they‘re younger and could potentially land an ultra-c element in the future? For the record Frolova has just turned 16, not 25. But I guess that‘s the way it is. Could have at least given her a Challenger assignment then, so she has a chance to improve her WS and get in contention for a GP.

Frolova is falling into the quicksand that Tarakanova, Gubanova, Tarusina, Talalaikina etc have previously falled into.
I think the RusFed at this point has lost their patience with her. It's not what Sadkova and others have done, it has to do with what Frolova haven't done. She was 6th at Junior Nationals last season (scored 190m just OK-ish) but only 11th at Seniors (187). That's not good.
Things can still change at JGP, but I somehow understand RusFed. Why not give Sadkova the experience, she's so young, she will only grow and learn from it, while they might think Frolova had her chances.

Frankly at this point I am thinking Frolova should do what Gubanova/Talalaikina just did. Not trying to get a Challenger but instead try to change country. If I understand the whole thing correctly you must not compete internationally for two years. Well, Frolova last competed at Youth Olympics in jan 2020, so come january 2022 she has already fulfilled that. If she starts working on that transition now, she might fully compete for another country already next season.

All that said, it breaks my heart for Frolova, she was absolutely wonderful at Test Skates. But there are just too many Russian girls out there...we all know that.

And also, I feel Gorbacheva is sadly heading in the same Frolova direction...

 

[RatedPG]

One thing I just want to mention in regards to Frolova. Trust me, I’d be livid if she doesn’t get a spot over others she’s clearly outperformed. Especially after how well she did at Test Skate.

But, I have a feeling this may be her own doing. If she competes in Junior Grand Prix and scores 190+, that might not be enough for a second spot. So, she would only perform at one junior event and she would then risk ineligibility to compete in the Senior Circuit. Maybe, she thinks being a substitute for someone who may get injured in the Senior Circuit or if she skates well enough, at local events, can even get the WC for the Russian Grand Prix instead this year. I think she wants a chance for Senior spot, especially during this Olympic year. My gut tells me this is what is happening.

 

[Amei]

I can understand Berestovskaya not getting anything (she‘s regressed a lot and her programs are horrible this season) but I don’t understand their plan for Frolova. She was one of the best at test skates and now skaters who performed a lot worse get spots just because they‘re younger and could potentially land an ultra-c element in the future? For the record Frolova has just turned 16, not 25. But I guess that‘s the way it is. Could have at least given her a Challenger assignment then, so she has a chance to improve her WS and get in contention for a GP.

Well unfortunately in terms of Russian ladies figure skating to be 16 and still competing internationally as a junior is not a good sign for future career prospects in Russia, and while I think that the age is not necessarily important that much in that she could certainly still develop past where she currently is, the issue is that it comes down to limited opportunities, the Fed only has so many spots to give for international assignments especially on the JGP and they are likely (and appear to be) favoring the either the shaky skaters that are attempting quads/triple axels or the younger skaters.

In terms of Challengers (and who knows, perhaps the JGP as well) perhaps Frolova is not anxious to get an assignment and is considering changing countries - perhaps she's deliberately not competing internationally (I admit I would imagine this is unlikely, but still a possibility) - though she is on the main Junior National team this year and was on the team last year as well, so we know she is likely getting funding from the Russian Fed so I imagine her trying to leave will be more difficult than Gubanova and Talalaikina who to my knowledge where either never on 1 of the national teams or if they had been it was several seasons ago.

 

[Jontor]

One thing I just want to mention in regards to Frolova. Trust me, I’d be livid if she doesn’t get a spot over others she’s clearly outperformed. Especially after how well she did at Test Skate.

But, I have a feeling this may be her own doing. If she competes in Junior Grand Prix and scores 190+, that might not be enough for a second spot. So, she would only perform at one junior event and she would then risk ineligibility to compete in the Senior Circuit. Maybe, she thinks being a substitute for someone who may get injured in the Senior Circuit or if she skates well enough, at local events, can even get the WC for the Russian Grand Prix instead this year. I think she wants a chance for Senior spot, especially during this Olympic year. My gut tells me this is what is happening.

You have a point...

 

[Jontor]

Gubanova and Talalaikina who to my knowledge where either never on 1 of the national teams or if they had been it was several seasons ago.

Gubanova was on the reserve team in 2019-2020 but didn't even get a GP spot.

 

[Amei]

Gubanova was on the reserve team in 2019-2020 but didn't even get a GP spot.

Main/reserve team is really about funding, and unfortunately in 2019-2020 was the season that Shcherbakova, Trusova and Kostornaia moved into seniors, plus Zagitova, Medvedeva, Tuktamysheva got 2 spots. Perhaps Konstantinova or Samodurova should have only had 1 spot.

 

[nussnacker]

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CSO6EHDIl0t/?utm_medium=copy_link

Layout at test skates this very season. 3F+Eu+3S and 3Lz+3T and a 4S attempt.

She took out the Euler combo because she did a 3S instead of a 4S. If she hadn't done the -2T-2Lo, she‘d have had to swap the first Salchow for a 2A and change the transitions. A disruption of the layout like that can be confusing and is simply not worth it. For comparison:

Muravieva‘s layout (jumps only) at JGP Kosice had a BV of 45.66. If she‘d substituted the 3S with a 2A and done the Euler combo, it would have been 45.96. Too much risk and not enough potential reward at this particular event since the goal was to win Silver (after Zhilina‘s performance Gold was gone) and get a second assignment. She did that.

Her score is also the second highest of all events so far. Why would they not give her a second assignment right away? She's earned it.

If eu-sal is too much risk, than perhaps she’s not as technically advanced as some Russian novices, who do them routinely. That’s the point. Please, even Plushenko said she landed her first single attempt of 4Sal on her feet during test skates, you’re gonna tell me they’ve been practicing a Lay-out with it, when she hasn’t landed a single one prior?

What transitions would she need to change even? The only Layout change (aside from Eu) would be 3S to 2A and she had no transitions into her 3S.

No, I don’t agree she earned a second stage. At least a fair distribution of it just because of that performance. It’s been only the first stage with russians, and only a third stage overall. Saying she scored 2nd highest so far means nothing, when other stages didn’t even have Russian girls, with whom she’s supposed to be competing for stages. Other girls might have scored higher, have they been given an opportunity to compete at all. Alas, they were not. Sofia does have a medal from JrNats, so this can be an argument to give her a second spot regardless not this performance alone though.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I think it's allowed, but it's probably not great for base value to repeat 3S as opposed to harder triples. That could be part of the reason as well.

She took out the Euler combo because she did a 3S instead of a 4S. If she hadn't done the -2T-2Lo, she‘d have had to swap the first Salchow for a 2A

I'm still a bit confused as these two posts seem contradictory (or are they?) Is having a solo 3S and a Eu-3S Zayaking, or just using up space that could have been used for triples? Why would the solo 3S have to become a 2A?

For reference, here she did: 2A, 3S, 3Lo, 3F2T2Lo, 3Lz3T, 3F, 3Lz2T
Test skates was: 2A, 4S (attempt), 3Lo, 3Feu3S, 3Lz3T, 3F, 3Lz2T (only difference was the solo S and the F combo)

I can see why, if there were a 3FEu3S, barring any other changes the 4S couldn't become a Lz/F/Lo/T (i.e. only option is an axel). But why couldn't the 4S just be replaced with a 3S, as the salchow would then occur once in combo and solo?

ETA: Ah, I think I understood what Fluture meant now... From the ISU rulebook (not sure if they changed it recently?)

Of all triple and quadruple jumps only two can be executed twice.

She has 2 repeated jumps already (3F and 3Lz) so can't repeat a third jump (salchow). So, it IS Zayaking.
Permutations and Combinations was not my favourite maths topic

 

[nussnacker]

I'm still a bit confused as these two posts seem contradictory (or are they?) Is having a solo 3S and a Eu-3S Zayaking, or just using up space that could have been used for triples? Why would the solo 3S have to become a 2A?

For reference, here she did: 2A, 3S, 3Lo, 3F2T2Lo, 3Lz3T, 3F, 3Lz2T
Test skates was: 2A, 4S (attempt), 3Lo, 3Feu3S, 3Lz3T, 3F, 3Lz2T (only difference was the solo S and the F combo)

I can see why, if there were a 3FEu3S, barring any other changes the 4S couldn't become a Lz/F/Lo/T (i.e. only option is an axel). But why couldn't the 4S just be replaced with a 3S, as the salchow would then occur once in combo and solo?

She repeats a Lz twice and F twice. So 2 repetitions of 2 triple jumps are already done. If she repeated a Sal, it would be a third jump she repeated.

 

[Paulipau]

No, I don’t agree she earned a second stage. At least a fair distribution of it just because of that performance. It’s been only the first stage with russians, and only a third stage overall. Saying she scored 2nd highest so far means nothing, when other stages didn’t even have Russian girls, with whom she’s supposed to be competing for stages. Other girls might have scored higher, have they been given an opportunity to compete at all. Alas, they were not. Sofia does have a medal from JrNats, so this can be an argument to give her a second spot regardless not this performance alone though.

Ow, I think that she very much deserved second spot. All Akatieva, Samodelkina, Petrosian, Zinina and Zhilina have 2 spots, why would Muravyeva not deserve one? She did beat Samodelkina and Zhilina before on Junior Nats, she just beat Petrosian last weekend.


Maybe yes, other could score higher, but Sofia could score higher as well. Plushy made a good choice taking out the 4S and 3-e-3 and letting the judges reward her the PCS.

 

[Azikin]

Frolova is falling into the quicksand that Tarakanova, Gubanova, Tarusina, Talalaikina etc have previously falled into.
I think the RusFed at this point has lost their patience with her. It's not what Sadkova and others have done, it has to do with what Frolova haven't done. She was 6th at Junior Nationals last season (scored 190m just OK-ish) but only 11th at Seniors (187). That's not good.
Things can still change at JGP, but I somehow understand RusFed. Why not give Sadkova the experience, she's so young, she will only grow and learn from it, while they might think Frolova had her chances.

Exactly. Frolova is lovely and I would like to see her, too, but they need to give a chance to skaters with higher scoring potential who will be able to beat the best skaters from other countries in future.

 

[nussnacker]

Ow, I think that she very much deserved second spot. All Akatieva, Samodelkina, Petrosian, Zinina and Zhilina have 2 spots, why would Muravyeva not deserve one? She did beat Samodelkina and Zhilina before on Junior Nats, she just beat Petrosian last weekend.


Maybe yes, other could score higher, but Sofia could score higher as well. Plushy made a good choice taking out the 4S and 3-e-3 and letting the judges reward her the PCS.

Oh, no, don’t worry, I’m not trying to single her out.
My initial point wasn’t about her specifically, but rather that it would be more fair to give out 2nd spots to everyone after they have already all competed once. There was no need to pre-assign spots imo, when other didn’t even get a chance.
Rusfed doesn’t care about ultimate fairness though, they care about developing their national team, so I think their choices can be explained. They are known to do well, when it comes to thinking strategically. At least so far they seem to be doing well, so I guess all their choices are justified.

I also specifically meant to say this performance alone in my eyes does not earn her a 2nd spot. For Nika it did for sure, no question! For Sofia it’s more body of work, her past season having an upward trajectory, attempting a quad at test skates - all those factors combined, rather than this specific competition alone.

 

[Magill]

It’s been only the first stage with russians, and only a third stage overall. Saying she scored 2nd highest so far means nothing, when other stages didn’t even have Russian girls, with whom she’s supposed to be competing for stages. Other girls might have scored higher, have they been given an opportunity to compete at all.

Just to stick to the facts, Sofia has not just scored 2nd highest this JGP cycle so far. It was also the 2nd highest scoring international debut in history. Only Veronika scored higher on such an occasion, the very same day. It means Sofia's debut was valued higher by international judges than respective debuts by Valieva, Usacheva and Khromykh, not to mention those who debuted under a different scoring system. And that - without a quad. Surely, it means something.
I totally agree with those who see her as highly deserving her second spot. I would be surprised if she did not get it after such a result and such a performance.

 

[nussnacker]

Just to stick to the facts, Sofia has not just scored 2nd highest this JGP cycle so far. It was also the 2nd highest scoring international debut in history. Only Veronika scored higher on such an occasion, the very same day. It means Sofia's debut was valued higher by international judges than respective debuts by Valieva, Usacheva and Khromykh, not to mention those who debuted under a different scoring system. And that - without a quad. Surely, it means something.
I totally agree with those who see her as highly deserving her second spot. I would be surprised if she did not get it after such a result and such a performance.

You are entitled to have your own opinion on this. I am to my own.

However, are you sure you’re making an equal comparison? You’re making a comparison which is very convenient to your line of argumentation, but let’s look at a different angle.
Valieva‘s debut was at 13 at her first junior season, for Sofia it happens to happen on her second junior season at 15.
Valieva was not clean then (I think she had 2 falls?), but she also already had a quad. With cleaner performances, her PCS improved and her junior record still stands as far as I’m concerned. Will Sofia manage to beat Kamila’s record this season? I would be impressed if she did (considering Kamila set that record at 13)

What would be fair, is to compare Valieva at the end of second junior season (last season) with Sofia at the end of her second junior season (which is this season). I‘d be really surprised to see Sofia eclipse Kamila by the end of this season, and land 2*3A and 2*4S/4T or more than that.

Usacheva and Khromykh should also be compared to Sofia at least at an equal stage of their careers, if not equal age.

They all are the same age, which is something you are completely forgetting, all born in 2006. Kamila, Daria and Maiia are just a few months older. Kamila being the oldest of the four, is only 4 months older than Muravyova.

Sofia happened to have a birthday in August, which is why she’s competing a year later. Will Sofia right this very moment be able to win against Valieva, Usacheva and Khromykh?

and when it comes to the „older“ generation, surely there’s some natural inflation of scores. With all due respect, Sofia is not on par with Aliona at the same age, despite having around the same PCS score. Moreover, Sofia will be able to go senior next season. My question would be whether Anna, Sasha and Aliona (the „older“ skaters) are really threatened by Sofia right now. I‘m sure they all feel strong competition coming from Kamila, will they be feeling the same level of competition coming from Sofia is still a question.

All of that is not to discount cleanliness and consistency of Sofia, which is something Rusfed clearly always has been after. It is admirable and impressive. I just don’t agree with the insinuation that she is currently better/going to be better than all the skaters you mentioned.

 

[yume]

Just to stick to the facts, Sofia has not just scored 2nd highest this JGP cycle so far. It was also the 2nd highest scoring international debut in history. Only Veronika scored higher on such an occasion, the very same day. It means Sofia's debut was valued higher by international judges than respective debuts by Valieva, Usacheva and Khromykh, not to mention those who debuted under a different scoring system. And that - without a quad. Surely, it means something.
I totally agree with those who see her as highly deserving her second spot. I would be surprised if she did not get it after such a result and such a performance.

And that was a surprisingly high score for those two skates.
But it's good to see fed support other skaters.

Comparisons are pointless since the seasons and the competitions are different.

 

[Magill]

You are entitled to have your own opinion on this. I am to my own.

However, are you sure you’re making an equal comparison? You’re making a comparison which is very convenient to your line of argumentation, but let’s look at a different angle.
Valieva‘s debut was at 13 at her first junior season, for Sofia it happens to happen on her second junior season at 15.
Valieva was not clean then (I think she had 2 falls?), but she also already had a quad. With cleaner performances, her PCS improved and her junior record still stands as far as I’m concerned. Will Sofia manage to beat Kamila’s record this season? I would be impressed if she did (considering Kamila set that record at 13)

What would be fair, is to compare Valieva at the end of second junior season (last season) with Sofia at the end of her second junior season (which is this season). I‘d be really surprised to see Sofia eclipse Kamila by the end of this season, and land 2*3A and 2*4S/4T or more than that.

Usacheva and Khromykh should also be compared to Sofia at least an equal stage of their careers, if not equal age.

They all are the same age, which is something you are completely forgetting, all born in 2006. Kamila, Daria and Maiia are just a few months older. Kamila being the oldest of the four, is only 4 months older than Muravyova.

Sofia happened to have a birthday in August, which is why she’s competing a year later. Will Sofia right this very moment be able to win against Valieva, Usacheva and Khromykh?

and when it comes to the „older“ generation, surely there’s some natural inflation of scores. With all due respect, Sofia is not on par with Aliona at the same age, despite having around the same PCS score. Moreover, Sofia will be able to go senior next season. My question would be whether Anna, Sasha and Aliona (the „older“ skaters) are really threatened by Sofia right now. I‘m sure they all feel strong competition coming from Kamila, will they be feeling the same level of competition coming from Sofia is still a question.

All of that is not to discount cleanliness and consistency of Sofia, which is something Rusfed is clearly always has been after. It is admirable and impressive. I just don’t agree with the insinuation that she is currently better/going to be better than all the skaters you mentioned.

Oh, my, well... I never said what you just implied I did "insinuate". I just quoted a fact. Now, hard numbers are hard numbers, and interpretations are just interpretations.
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