2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

[Fluture]

For the record, Liza probably should have won the free skate at Worlds last season. But none of her fans whined about it. We accepted the scores.

How exactly? She had a fall in the FS just like Anna but her BV was about 5 points lower (and 20 points lower than Trusova, btw). You could argue that Anna was overscored on some of her jumps and spins and I’d agree with you (the last FCSp2 as well as the solo 3Lz should probably have gotten negative GOE) but again - you‘d have to lower her GOE by about 10 points for Liza to beat her. And I don‘t see why she should have beaten Anna in PCS either. She doesn‘t have better skating skills, loses quite a bit on transitions and I don‘t think her performance or interpretation were better than Anna‘s either, though that‘s certainly more of a subjective matter.

Now, Sasha is another story when it comes to PCS and I probably would have given her 61 instead of the 66 she received. But other than that, she wins on BV, like she tends to do. And Liza didn‘t show anything extraordinarily difficult to beat that.

So, yeah, even if you leave Liza‘s score exactly the same and subtract about 7-8 points from Sasha and Anna‘s in areas they were overscored, it doesn‘t change a thing. They beat Liza by more than 10 points and frankly, if you lower their scores by that much, hers needs to be lowered as well since it’s not like she wasn‘t overscored herself. And for the record, I‘m neither a particularly Sasha nor Anna fan (like I am of Aliona, which makes me prone to being biased), though I admit to preferring both of them over her.

Personally, I think it‘s silly to deny the judging favors Liza is receiving right now. Yes, she is significantly older than the other competitors and deserving of a lot of respect for staying around but being older shouldn‘t be reflected in PCS. I have nothing against her beating Aliona here as she was better. It‘s the difference I heavily disagree with because it just doesn‘t reflect what was shown on the ice. And by the way, I defended Liza when she was severely underscored in the earlier Russian competitions last year. But I‘ll also say something now that the opposite is happening.

 

[SXTN]

For me the PCS scores for Liza and Aliona are ok, though I would have them closer together. Judging them by their own standards Liza has improved so much in many departments for example spins, steps and transitions, consistency and she is slowly increasing her base value and GOE. Of course SS should be around 8 at max. but 9's for IN, PE and CO are not a crime.
Aliona on the other hand is visibly in worse condition than two years ago. You can't take away the 9 in SS from her, but IN, PE, TR and CO were not as superior as two years ago. Her GOE are low for her standards and I honestly understand why. A level 2 step sequence also doesn't add magic to the overall impression. To my mind, 34,11 for this performance is decent, knowing her real potential.
I don't think the judges are trying to promote Liza as the new PCS queen now, she is just the best version of herself now, but I believe she has about reached her maximum PCS potential by now. Aliona on the other hand has a lot of room for improvement, she can have 9,5's everywhere if she continues to be disciplined. This time, it was not a 9 performance from her.

 

[fabienne1996]

I’m going to ask a really stupid question. Why can’t the Russian skaters get vaccinated in the countries that offer Pfizer or Moderna vaccines - at their Grand Prix competitions? A 21-day quarantine sounds terrible

Because they only stay in those country's a few days and they would need to get the second shot from those vaccines after 3 weeks or so? As itstandsthat theycant get their 2second shot in Russia it's pretty hard to do that, and in Russia the only one that looks like it's getting an ok for children next year is sputnik and not one of the others ?

 

[fabienne1996]

For Liza to make the Olympic team she would have to beat out all those girls at Nationals and I can't see that happening.

Katy I don't want to burst your bubble but it is most likely that the Russian Federation will send 2 17 year olds and one 15 year old or two 15 year olds and one 17 years old. One 18 year old is also a contender for the Olympics and she looked like a new skater last night. I think aliona has become more of a factor for the Olympic team after changing her SP and skating much better last night.

Tara won the Olympics at 15 Oksana at Sweet 16 Alina at 15 Adelina peaked at 17. Sarah Hughes was also 17 I believe when she won Olympic gold. Those are the peak years for ladies figure skaters for the Olympics and I think that's part of the strategy for the Russian Federation choosing who goes.
This does not mean Liza cannot beat any of those girls out for the third spot but the pressure will be on her at Nationals in December. Seeing her skating so well in her mid-20s is remarkable people love to see that how she just kept plugging away year after year after year. Of course if she adds a quad by Nationals said she can land that changes things too.

We know who has the first spot locked up. Anna isva pretty much has the second spot locked up 3 national titles in a row and that's more impressive than being a reigning world champion which she is. Liza is battling for the third spot with three others.

If fgure skating was fair countries that dominate disciplines would have more than three maximum Russia obviously deserves like 6 going to the Olympics and Liza would certainly be one of them.

Ad I said don't be so sure. The real problem is for the underage girls if they are not vaccinated by the time the Olympics come around? Their only other option at this time is 21 days of quarantine which basically means no training, no ice time, no jumping nothing for 3 weeks. Which could cut their medalling chance right off . So I would not be surprised if both Liza and alyona are vaccinated (Which is still a question in itself) if rusfed sends them both there. Or they find a way around those 21 days of quarantine , or get the girls vaccinated as an exemption of the rule in Russia.

 

[nussnacker]

Tbh I thought the GOE scoring was pretty good here. I'd expected them to give Kamila +4 and +5 across the board as they've done in the past but they rightfully scored her combo at +1/+2.

I wonder why they didn’t penalize Liza’s change of edge in her combo then, if they were penalizing Kami for it. Not even mentioning Liza’s spins, which compared to the rest of the field are lackluster (putting it lightly). It’s not just PCS, the leniency was quite noticeable in every single aspect.

 

[lurkerghost1]

No one here is knocking Liza at all. as discussed the problem wasn't just with her scoring, it was several other skaters too, regardless of Aliona. There are no "imagined" favors, there WERE favors and not just to Liza. Lizas age has nothing to do with anything, and she shouldn't be receiving any favors just because she's older. Work ethic does not equal high PCS unless that is reflected on the ice, and it wasn't. She's not putting out skating that is deserving of over 35 points.

I still would have put her ahead of Aliona but not by 6 entire points. To deny there were favors given is ridiculous. Just make it make sense.

Liza absolutely should get favors because she’s older. This sport in the current form is so rigged against her because she dares to compete as an adult against a bunch of pubescent teens. Any other skater in the world in her position would have retired by now but she is getting better and better. The judges absolutely know how tilted the sport is towards 15 year olds so I’m not going to blame them for trying to balance that with their scores.

More directly if you want to pretend PCS has anything to do with artistry/skating level, honestly when was the last time Alena skated a level 4 step sequence? And when was the last time she didn’t slow down to a crawl while doing so? This short program was Alena’s best skate from a performance perspective since Rusnats 2020, but that doesn’t change the fact her skating is nowhere near where it was when she was getting 36 PCS.
Liza on the other hand has her best short program of her whole career and most of the other skaters here would make a fool of themselves in comparison if they tried to skate with the same sultryness - including Aliona.

But again these scores have nothing to do with their actual performances. If they delivered the exact same performances as they did today but Aliona was reigning worlds silver medalist, their scores absolutely would have been flipped with Alena getting her q call overlooked instead of Liza.

I don't like predicting the future. I have no idea who will be on the Olympic team. However, it terms of who is getting pushed in PCS/GOE clearly Tuk, Sasha and Kamila are the ones who seem to be getting favorable treatment. Neither Tuk or Sasha are necessarily traditionally "artistic" skaters ( They both conversely have great jump technique) but their PCS this season suggests otherwise which was not always the case in the past. Valieva is certainly more artistic but is definitely not as far ahead of other skaters as the judging implies. So, if the Russian federation does have any say in who is getting pushed my feeling is these are the skaters they believe will be on the team.

Sasha is not getting pushed instead of Anna. Let me remind you that Anna scored 233 at worlds without landing any Ultra-C elements. By comparison Trusova just scored 232 with a 4Lz, Rika Kihira scored 233 with 2 triple axels at GPF 2018, and Tuktamysheva needed 3 triple axels to get 233 at Finlandia. The only other skaters to score 230+ without an Ultra-C element in history are Medvedeva, Zagitova, and Osmond.
As long as Anna is able to land one quad at Rusnats I am sure she will make the team. I don’t really think she has the 4Lz anymore as she hasn’t landed it in nearly a year, but the 4F certainly is doable.

Aliona may not make the Grand Prix final but that ain't a blip on the screen to Russian Nationals. Of course aliona could finish second today in Vancouver and that would be a great start to her Grand Prix season.

Will International judges being generous to Liza as you put it matter when it comes to Russian Nationals which is where the Olympic team will be determined?

No matter where aalna finishes today I like what I say after the SP changes and I think by national she should be scoring in the a low 80s at least with her SP. The A train is on the move!

Domestic judges are also good to Liza - do not forget that she won PCS at the Russian cup finals this February over Valieva, Khromykh, and Usacheva.

I think people also overlook the factor of Sofia Akatieva and her very good chances of making the podium. If she is in the bronze or silver medal position then the federation can send whoever they want for the 3rd spot. In theory Samodelkina could also make the podium though it’s much less likely. But my point is I would not be surprised at all if the team is not the same as the top 3 senior finishers. If the results are something like Valieva, Akatieva, Shcherbakova, Trusova, Tuktamysheva I have no clue what they’ll do.

 

[nussnacker]

Liza absolutely should get favors because she’s older.

Lmfao are PCS a retirement fund or something?

 

[prorussian fan]

Where is it established that a 21-day quarantine must be carried out for the Olympic games? The Tokyo games performed very well this year and everything could be controlled with daily PCR tests and proper sanitary measures.

 

[Scott512]

Ad I said don't be so sure. The real problem is for the underage girls if they are not vaccinated by the time the Olympics come around? Their only other option at this time is 21 days of quarantine which basically means no training, no ice time, no jumping nothing for 3 weeks. Which could cut their medalling chance right off . So I would not be surprised if both Liza and alyona are vaccinated (Which is still a question in itself) if rusfed sends them both there. Or they find a way around those 21 days of quarantine , or get the girls vaccinated as an exemption of the rule in Russia.

Very true. One thing I can be sure of is that nothing is for sure in figures kating..

 

[macy]

Liza absolutely should get favors because she’s older. This sport in the current form is so rigged against her because she dares to compete as an adult against a bunch of pubescent teens. Any other skater in the world in her position would have retired by now but she is getting better and better. The judges absolutely know how tilted the sport is towards 15 year olds so I’m not going to blame them for trying to balance that with their scores.

...what?

Literally no one is owed anything in this sport. Nothing is rigged against her, she's playing the game too with 3As and training quads. Why is she entitled to something because she's older than everyone else?

 

[Scott512]

Where is it established that a 21-day quarantine must be carried out for the Olympic games? The Tokyo games performed very well this year and everything could be controlled with daily PCR tests and proper sanitary measures.

very true. You make a very interesting point.
It would be ridiculous to have a 21 day quarantine and quite nervy. Just as it's quite preposterous that some countries don't recognize the Russian vaccine When it's certainly no worse and quite possibly better than what the rest of the world is taken.

Where the underage girls the parents are gonna be playing a big role. Come nationals when two 15 year olds are very possibly going to be on the Olympic team their parents are gonna have to make a decision make a decision when they go to Europeans do they get the vaccine at the end of that competition in January? If the European city has pfizer or moderna? What would be recognized by the IOC?

 

[Lzbee]

Liza absolutely should get favors because she’s older. This sport in the current form is so rigged against her because she dares to compete as an adult against a bunch of pubescent teens.

Ahem. Who of the competitors today were "pubescent teens"? Should Aliona, Mai, Wakaba, Karen, Madeline, Emily and Alison also have these favours? These women are all over 18 and most likely over puberty.

 

[Azikin]

Lmfao are PCS a retirement fund or something?

Unfortunately it often is like that - Kostner, Medvedeva...

 

[lurkerghost1]

Actually she is. The judges, who are the only official scorers, said so.

Until I’m presented compelling evidence that the judges were bribed, everything else is just crying over spilled milk.

I am not disagreeing with the scoring here of Liza or Aliona (see my long response above) but I wouldn’t say the judges’ scores are any indicator of who should get what PCS.

Can you explain to me why the PCS scores in the following cases were given, like specifically what in each performance caused the judges to enter those scores?
Case #1: Sochi 2014 free skate: Mao Asada 69, Yuna Kim 74, Adelina Sotnikova 74
Case #2: Pyeonchang 2018 free skate: Evgenia Medvedeva 78, Alina Zagitova 75, Katelyn Osmond 75, Satoko Miyahara 71
Case #3: 2021 Worlds Free Skate: Anna 72 (fall), Elizaveta 69 (fall), Rika 69 (meltdown), Karen 67, Kaori 67, Bradie 67 (meltdown), Loena 66, Sasha 66 (meltdown), Olga 61
Case #4: 2021 skate America free skate: Sasha 69, Satoko 68

The judges do not know anything and have never known anything. I would never ever reference them as a reason for anything.

Lmfao are PCS a retirement fund or something?

Depends which skater you ask. Kostner and Patrick Chan would say yes. Asada and Miyahara would say absolutely not.
PCS are not a retirement fund, they are a ranking of which skaters are in fashion at the moment. They come and go like a new fall collection.

...what?

Literally no one is owed anything in this sport. Nothing is rigged against her, she's playing the game too with 3As and training quads. Why is she entitled to something because she's older than everyone else?

She’s entitled because the ISU have sat on their butts and watched as the sport has become a birthday/birth year competition instead of a talent/ability competition. They need Liza in order for them to continue to pretend this is not a problem. They see how successful increasing senior age by one year was for gymnastics but they’re simply too lazy to make the necessary changes. If Liza is the one to benefit from their facade so be it.

Ahem. Who of the competitors today were "pubescent teens"? Should Aliona, Mai, Wakaba, Karen, Madeline, Emily and Alison also have these favours? These women are all over 18 and most likely over puberty.

Well Mai and Wakaba have never gotten any favors at all so sadly I don’t expect them to get them now. Karen is getting these favors now let’s be honest. Her skating was just as good 4 years ago when she had that amazing On Golden Pond short program but where was the 34 PCS then? Only now that she’s at risk of being pushed off the Olympic Team by Liu do the judges suddenly see her wonderful qualities. As for the Canadians, they aren’t up against any 15 year old phenoms. Ruiter is good but she’s at the same level as Schizas. Her coach isn’t squeezing an extra year of pubesence out of her like Eteri, Hamada, or Laura Lipetsky who have become experts in this so that their skaters can win medals for a year before falling apart.

 

[icybear]

Where is it established that a 21-day quarantine must be carried out for the Olympic games? The Tokyo games performed very well this year and everything could be controlled with daily PCR tests and proper sanitary measures.

If Beijing Olympics athletes aren't vaccinated, they'll be in quarantine for 21 days
Most countries around the world require people arriving abroad to be vaccinated or choose quarantine. A negative COVID test on arrival wont suffice. So why should athletes get special treatment just because they're going to the olympics.

 

[Lzbee]

Well Mai and Wakaba have never gotten any favors at all so sadly I don’t expect them to get them now. Karen is getting these favors now let’s be honest. Her skating was just as good 4 years ago when she had that amazing On Golden Pond short program but where was the 34 PCS then? Only now that she’s at risk of being pushed off the Olympic Team by Liu do the judges suddenly see her wonderful qualities. As for the Canadians, they aren’t up against any 15 year old phenoms. Ruiter is good but she’s at the same level as Schizas. Her coach isn’t squeezing an extra year of pubesence out of her like Eteri, Hamada, or Laura Lipetsky who have become experts in this so that their skaters can win medals for a year before falling apart.

My point was that if Liza's PCS favours are justified then these women should have had higher PCS as well and that would put them much closer to Liza's score. Liza isn't competing against only pubescent teens here so she shouldn't be getting favours at their expense.

 

[nussnacker]

Depends which skater you ask. Kostner and Patrick Chan would say yes.

Excuse me, did you just try to say Liza and Patrick Chan are in the same category regarding PCS?
The more unfavorable comparison couldn’t be made.
Makes sense, why you think her scores are completely justified, if you can’t spot the difference between Patrick’s insane quality of skating, transitions and unmatched godly skating skills and Liza’s skating skills and rather empty programs. Carolina, you know, also had a clear cut case why she was receiving her PCS (SS, presentation and elegance), which didn’t depend on her age being bigger than others.

Patrick’s PCS didn’t come from “he’s old, so let’s shower him with undeserved scores”, he actually was the class of the field in terms of PCS.

 

[lurkerghost1]

My point was that if Liza's PCS favours are justified then these women should have had higher PCS as well and that would put them much closer to Liza's score. Liza isn't competing against only pubescent teens here so she shouldn't be getting favours at their expense

Yes I understood your point. And my point is that Liza and Karen are getting these favors because them doing well serves the ISU political purposes. Liza’s is more visible because she is being overscored more than Karen but again remember that Rusfed has more people at ISU and USFS (ex. lakernik). Whereas these Canadian skaters won’t help ISU with proving anything.

As for the Japanese the ISU hasnt cared for Japanese skaters much ever really. Obviously Midori Ito was robbed of many gold medals but even since then, Arakawa and Hanyu won their golds basically because their competitors eliminated themselves moreso than a brilliant skate by either of them. And the ISU was extremely stingy with the scores of Mao Asada and Daisuke Takahashi. It isn’t surprising at all because as I said the ISU is made up of Europeans and North Americans especially Russia and USA. So ISU doesn’t give a care in the world to the Japanese ladies team because it’s not like they’re suddenly going to start winning anything. But going even further beyond that Mai and Wakaba specifically have always been the unfavored country’s unfavored skaters.

Trust me I am the first to line up and rattle off every time Wakaba has been unfairly underscored (basically since her JGP debut), and if I was judging she’d have equaled Valieva’s 36 in PCS. She absolutely deserves better scores but I’ve given up on her getting them. But in terms of favors, my point is that Liza (and Karen) get them this season for ISU’s political reasons which stems from their own incompetency, so in that sense as long as ISU continues being incompetent and refuses to address the age issue, then Liza will continue to deserve extra benefits.

 

[lurkerghost1]

Excuse me, did you just try to say Liza and Patrick Chan are in the same category regarding PCS?
The more unfavorable comparison couldn’t be made.
Makes sense, why you think her scores are completely justified, if you can’t spot the difference between Patrick’s insane quality of skating, transitions and unmatched godly skating skills and Liza’s skating skills and rather empty programs. Carolina, you know, also had a clear cut case why she was receiving her PCS (SS, presentation and elegance), which didn’t depend on her age being bigger than others.

Patrick’s PCS didn’t come from “he’s old, so let’s shower him with undeserved scores”, he actually was the class of the field in terms of PCS.

You are still stuck in the mindset of thinking PCS is Program Components Score which is why you do not understand what I’m saying. I would never dare to say Liza is anywhere close to Patrick and Kostner in artistry or skating level, I’m not blind.

But do I think Mao and Miyahara are? Absolutely. But where was Mao’s PCS in 2014 or Miyahara’s in 2018? Or where was Takahashi’s in 2010? Or heck where was Loena Hendrick’s this past worlds? And let me say it again, where was Midori Ito’s artistic scores at basically any competition of her career?

Well the answer is their Political Connections Score was understandably low. Once one understand that this is what PCS is, then one understands why Liza’s sudden jump in PCS is deserved.

By the way Patrick was no longer the class of the field post-2014 in artistry because he was a little checked out mentally. But again, artistry has very little to do with PCS and Canada needed him for team gold, so he continued to get the scores.

 

[sclloyd]

You are still stuck in the mindset of thinking PCS is Program Components Score which is why you do not understand what I’m saying. I would never dare to say Liza is anywhere close to Patrick and Kostner in artistry or skating level, I’m not blind.

But do I think Mao and Miyahara are? Absolutely. But where was Mao’s PCS in 2014 or Miyahara’s in 2018? Or where was Takahashi’s in 2010? Or heck where was Loena Hendrick’s this past worlds? And let me say it again, where was Midori Ito’s artistic scores at basically any competition of her career?

Well the answer is their Political Connections Score was understandably low. Once one understand that this is what PCS is, then one understands why Liza’s sudden jump in PCS is deserved.

By the way Patrick was no longer the class of the field post-2014 in artistry because he was a little checked out mentally. Which is where the term inflation came from (well it started earlier but really developed then). But again, artistry has very little to do with PCS and Canada needed him for team gold, so he continued to get the scores.

If you admit that PCS is all political then you admit that Liza doesn’t deserve her score from a skating perspective and that the governing skating body is corrupt. If the scores aren’t a reflection of skills then they have no business using them to judge a “competitive” field